The Science of Twilight

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navarre
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre »

EdwardNJessi wrote:
debussygirl wrote:So if you were around before the boards crashed, you may or may not know that I was thoroughly confused about how a 25-chromosone vampire could have a normal child with a 23-chromosone human. Well, I did my research this time other than relying on my limited public school knowledge of it, and I found that this could happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mules
In the first paragraph you read that donkeys have 62 chromosones, horses have 64. But they can reproduce and make a mule. I still don't get it, but it can happen. Which also brings up an interesting point. Not all mules are sterile. Some female mules can reproduce with purebred horses or donkeys. It's the same with a liger. Here's the site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
So maybe Renesmee could have children with Jacob. Hmmm...

Oh wow. I just opened this thread for the first time and you completely blew my mind with this response. haha. You know...when I was reading the story, I didn't think about the science of Twilight, but now that I have time to digest everything, a lot of questions came up. The biggest question I have is "How is Renesmee's life going to unfold?" I really wish I could have learned a LOT more about her. And, "If Bella could get pregnant, then obviously Edward's reproductive system works...but why not Rosalie's? Esme's? Alice's?" Maybe these answers are out there somewhere and I haven't done enough research...
SM explains in BD FAQ's that female vampire bodies do not change - frozen in the state they are at their transformation. Their bodies can not yield for a growing child, much less ovulate, so forth. The males on the other hand still carry in their 'seminal fluids' DNA that can bond with a female human ovum.
Go to her website and Click on Breaking Dawn and the FAQ's it is pretty interesting.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by EdwardNJessi »

navarre wrote:
EdwardNJessi wrote:
debussygirl wrote:So if you were around before the boards crashed, you may or may not know that I was thoroughly confused about how a 25-chromosone vampire could have a normal child with a 23-chromosone human. Well, I did my research this time other than relying on my limited public school knowledge of it, and I found that this could happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mules
In the first paragraph you read that donkeys have 62 chromosones, horses have 64. But they can reproduce and make a mule. I still don't get it, but it can happen. Which also brings up an interesting point. Not all mules are sterile. Some female mules can reproduce with purebred horses or donkeys. It's the same with a liger. Here's the site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
So maybe Renesmee could have children with Jacob. Hmmm...

Oh wow. I just opened this thread for the first time and you completely blew my mind with this response. haha. You know...when I was reading the story, I didn't think about the science of Twilight, but now that I have time to digest everything, a lot of questions came up. The biggest question I have is "How is Renesmee's life going to unfold?" I really wish I could have learned a LOT more about her. And, "If Bella could get pregnant, then obviously Edward's reproductive system works...but why not Rosalie's? Esme's? Alice's?" Maybe these answers are out there somewhere and I haven't done enough research...
SM explains in BD FAQ's that female vampire bodies do not change - frozen in the state they are at their transformation. Their bodies can not yield for a growing child, much less ovulate, so forth. The males on the other hand still carry in their 'seminal fluids' DNA that can bond with a female human ovum.
Go to her website and Click on Breaking Dawn and the FAQ's it is pretty interesting.
OH! awesome! I'll have to check it out when I have some time to really sit down and study. haha. I have so much to learn. Thankfully, the Lex is here to help! :)
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Amivera »

debussygirl wrote:So if you were around before the boards crashed, you may or may not know that I was thoroughly confused about how a 25-chromosone vampire could have a normal child with a 23-chromosone human. Well, I did my research this time other than relying on my limited public school knowledge of it, and I found that this could happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mules
In the first paragraph you read that donkeys have 62 chromosones, horses have 64. But they can reproduce and make a mule. I still don't get it, but it can happen. Which also brings up an interesting point. Not all mules are sterile. Some female mules can reproduce with purebred horses or donkeys. It's the same with a liger. Here's the site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
So maybe Renesmee could have children with Jacob. Hmmm...
I thought we already went over this:

Renesmee *HAS* to have children, or else SMeyer has stabbed her own universe to death again.
The point of imprinting is to pass the werewolf gene to the strongest source. This means that Renesmee MUST have children whether she wants to or not, otherwise the fundamental reason for imprinting has been invalidated.

Also:
[b]Arzim from TS Boards[/b] wrote: Meyer says that Nessie was born with 24 chromosomes (presumably 24 chromosome pairs). This does not make sense.

I've seen Twilighters use the mule/ninny defense, saying that horses have 64 chromosomes and donkeys have 62 and since some mules has 63, it "works" for vamp/humans and therefore dhampirs as well. Besides the fact that mules getting 63 is a total crapshoot, here are some reasons it doesn't.

Humans have 23 very specific chromosomes.
Vampires (and for the sake of the discussion, let's assume that this is possible) have 25 very specific chromosomes.

Human 23 match with the vampire's first 23 (assuming they are the vampire's original human chromosomes).
Human gamete has 0 left over, Vampire gamete has 2 left over.

Now, presumably, it's those 2 extra chromosomes which give the vampire its vampire traits.

What are those vampire traits?
Well, vampires are humans' predators. They hunt, kill, and gain sustenance from humans. This is NOT the same as the donkey/horse relationship, two animals which are very, very similar genetically - i.e., four-legged mammals, hoofed, living, herbivores, part of the equidae family and the equus genus.

Saying that a human and vampire can cross-breed is like making the argument that tigers and antelopes can cross-breed. One predates upon the other. They have extreme genetic differences. Humans are living, omnivores, mammals, members of the hominidae family and homo class. Vampires are dead, sanguinivorous, asexual, and since while they're possibly a member of the hominidae family, they sure as hell don't qualify for the homo genus (also, because they're not real and based on fantasy, but then again that's the point of this whole discussion - the absurdity that Meyer tried to explain vampires scientifically). Not only that, but they are humans' natural predator (strength, speed, DaZzLe!).

Long story short? THEY DON'T MATCH UP TO HUMANS.

Besides that, even if those two left over chromosomes somehow joined up with each other, it'd probably result in some really What on earth does fornification under consent of king have to do with this?-up congenital defects (...they arguably did, but whatevs). They would not result in a perfect little creature like Nessie.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by debussygirl »

Who's really to say that vampires and humans are too far off the genetic spectrum to mate? Only the author of whatever story has vampires and humans in it. Vampires are fictional creatures, therefore their science can be dealt with differently than this one. I mean, if SM just went and made Rosalie pregnant then there's a problem. But she hasn't broken the rules she's made in her universe, or at least I don't think so.
And the imprinting for babies is just a theory, not set in stone. If it is, I haven't seen any given proof from SM or in the books. I'm not saying that imprinting isn't for that, just we shouldn't assume that it is, because new revelations could maybe perhaps occur in sequels.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Auctorita »

debussygirl wrote:Who's really to say that vampires and humans are too far off the genetic spectrum to mate? Only the author of whatever story has vampires and humans in it. Vampires are fictional creatures, therefore their science can be dealt with differently than this one. I mean, if SM just went and made Rosalie pregnant then there's a problem. But she hasn't broken the rules she's made in her universe, or at least I don't think so.
The conclusion that vampires and humans are too genetically different is based off all the information within the books and other tidbits of information that Meyer has given out. The problem with the chromosome explanation when referring to Nessie or the vampires is that the explanation wasn't a scientific theory that the author made up for the story but explained using actual scientific fact. By doing this the vampires and half vampires have to make sense scientifically and so any contradictions or gaps would be breaking the rules of the Twilight universe. If it is impossible for two such genetically different animals to mate in real life then it is the same for fictional characters if vampires are explained with science. If that makes any sense.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by debussygirl »

If it's just the fact that vampires can eat humans, I don't get why they can't mate. There is nothing real to compare a human and a vampire. Vampires were at one point human, so they do share a bond there. It's not as random as a lion and antelope making babies. They share common chromosones. So it doesn't make sense to me that this isn't possible scientifically in fiction world. But that's just me.
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navarre
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre »

debussygirl wrote:If it's just the fact that vampires can eat humans, I don't get why they can't mate. There is nothing real to compare a human and a vampire. Vampires were at one point human, so they do share a bond there. It's not as random as a lion and antelope making babies. They share common chromosones. So it doesn't make sense to me that this isn't possible scientifically in fiction world. But that's just me.
I agree. And since this is Stephenie Meyer's fictional world to do with as she pleases, Bella(human) and Edward(vampire) together conceived a child and said child had 24 chromosomes - just like Jacob. Vamps and humans can mate and have children. Like you said and it is obvious, vampires were human once too and they will carry some of their human aspects with them into their vampire existence and share common chromosomes.

That is the way it was written for these stories.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Amivera »

debussygirl wrote: And the imprinting for babies is just a theory, not set in stone. If it is, I haven't seen any given proof from SM or in the books. I'm not saying that imprinting isn't for that, just we shouldn't assume that it is, because new revelations could maybe perhaps occur in sequels.
SMeyer has said herself that imprinting, the entire reason for imprinting, is to pass on the werewolf gene. That is the reason. It's not a consolation prize for becoming a werewolf (Here! You're a giant, furry beast! Have a soul-mate! Better yet, have a baby you can groom to be your soul-mate!).

She said it was to pass on the gene and if we're going by what SMeyer says, there it is.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by sunni »

I've posted this on another forum and here it is here. Someone later made the point that, of course, since the vampires are frozen in time things like cell and chromosome activity would be frozen too, so really it's all very confusing to explain logically. But here is the explanation of chromosomes and why Meyer shouldn't have delved too far into this, because clearly it doesn't add up.

...

Logically, the 24th and 25th chromosomes Nessie receives from Edward will not magically join together and give her a complete 24 chromosomal pair structure.

I’ll try and explain this…since it confused all logic out of me when I read it o_o

Bella --> 46 chromosomes, 23 pairs (2n=46, n=23)
Edward --> 50 chromosomes 25 pairs (2n=50, n=25)


(A/N - Edward has FOUR whole extra chromosomes?!? Are vampires really THAT different?)

Since Bella contributes 23 chromosomes in her egg and Edward contributes 25 chromosomes in his sperm, Nessie has 48 chromosomes BUT NOT 24 pairs.

Bella and Edward’s chromosomes differ in number and they are not homologous (do not match!) therefore, the chromosome doublets fail to properly pair up with each other. In Nessie’s example, two chromosomes from Edward will NOT join together to give her 48 homologous chromosomes. Those last two chromosomes will be by themselves and will not pair up. Nessie has 23 pairs of homologous chromosomes and two left over.

I don’t know why comparisons are being made to mules and ligers. With ligers, both the lion and tiger have the same number of chromosomes (2n=38, n=19) so it really isn’t too surprising that the liger can then produce offspring. With mules it is slightly different as one parent has 32 pairs (2n=64, n=32) and the other parent has 31 pairs (2n=62, n=31), leaving the offspring with 63 chromosomes (32 pairs + one), with the leftover chromosome not joined up with another. (This means that offspring is almost certainly sterile! Only 60 cases since 1527 have been seen of fertile mules!)

Therefore there is only ONE leftover chromosome in this mule, NOT TWO like in Nessie’s case. I would believe that this would further reduce her already minuscule chances of being fertile if she has TWO chromosomes that do not join up.

Jacob --> 48 chromosomes, 24 pairs (2n=48, n=24)
Nessie --> 48 chromosomes, 23 pairs plus two extra (2n=46 + two extra, n=23 + two extra)


If they reproduce, it would entail having 24 of Jacob’s chromosomes trying to line up with 23 of Nessie’s (these are the chromosomes that can successfully go through the process of meiosis) but Nessie also has two extra. I don’t know what these two chromosomes will do.

Their child will, at best, have 47 chromosomes (23 pairs plus, one extra from Jacob) but there is the chance it may gain one or two of those extra ones that don’t match up anywhere. In that case, their child could have up to THREE chromosomes which do not match up anywhere! This is most certainly impossible, I would think.

It really doesn’t make any sense for Nessie to be fertile. This, in turn, defies the whole point of imprinting specifically for passing on genes…which, in turn, clearly shows Meyer’s lack of research.

Please correct me if I’ve made any mistakes in my explanation.

...
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Amivera »

Brilliant post! :D

I agree. It was silly of her to attempt to justify the 'logic' of her 'universe' with science. The fact that she admitted to never having done any research only adds to this. Why was there an explanation of chromosomes in the book but not an explanation for how Bella became pregnant? Wouldn't it have been easier for Carlisle to take some of his own venom and run tests?

I think SMeyer came up with this last-ditch attempt to explain the pregnancy after the book was finalized. Otherwise, the proper thing to do would have been to place at least some sort of explanation in. No one gives a care about the number of chromosomes, especially since it was explained incorrectly.

Yes, it is fiction, but the fact that it has been justified by science, or her own brand of twisted science, means that it is perfectly within our rights to criticize her for it.
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