Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

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Shakespeare
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Shakespeare »

When is it morally imperative--if ever--to try to change someone's mind about a course they are pursuing that you disagree with? I think, to a certain extent, we all have the right to live and let be. Nobody should feel obligated to sort out the issues of another person and the concept encourages the egotistical mindset of "I'm right, you're wrong." I think the exceptions would be in a circumstance where someone is in immediate danger or when someone extremely close to you is making a potentially harmful decision. For the former, it is at least your duty to notify an authority if you are personally unwilling to become involved. For the latter, help and advice is expected from close family members and friends.

How far is it appropriate to push your opinion onto another person if you feel their personal decisions are self-destructive? I don't think it's ever right to decide something for another person. Advice is fine, but you need to remember that you are not necessarily right about everything. If the decision is extremely destructive, a third party should be notified so that they can intervene. But if it's just you who finds the behavior self-destructive, you don't have the right to control a person's actions.

Rosalie and Bella:
Of course Rosalie is jealous. Bella has everything she has ever wanted and is knowingly throwing it all away. Really, it's insulting. I'd probably be offended if someone had everything I wanted and sought to get rid of it all. But Rosalie never forces her views on Bella. She just offers her advice. Then, when Bella becomes pregnant and yet again gets exactly what Rosalie wants, Rose doesn't give in to her jealousy; she does everything she can to help Bella. I think it's rather harsh to condemn her for her jealousy.

Edward is a different problem. His entire argument against the transformation is based solely on belief. Nobody really knows about vampire souls, yet he thinks he has the right to force his views on Bella. His entire argument is then weakened by his views on Carlisle's decision to transform people. (If the problem is about souls, why does it matter if a person is living or dead?) That, and the fact that Carlisle and Bella both completely disagree with him about the issue, makes it entirely wrong to force his opinions on her. Edward shouldn't have to help with the change, but he also needs to let Bella make her own decisions. His advice is expected, but his attempts to forcefully control the situation are immoral.

Carlisle is a bit more complicated. He has tried to force his lifestyle on the Volturi and really, in my opinion, isn't that understanding about their choice to feed on humans. I think he acted a bit contemptuous toward them, but it's been a while since I read the books, so I could be wrong. I don't think that attitude was right, as it is not his place to dictate the lives of others.
The situation changes, however, when he is at his own home. Just common courtesy should make his guests refrain from eating humans while visiting. I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm not going to demand meat if I am staying with one of my vegetarian friends. In that situation, no one is being forced to change their lifestyle; they're just refraining from offending their host.
Also when you look at it in terms of vampires, you have to account for the fact that the Cullens will be endangered if someone in Forks is eaten. Because of this, it is almost a matter of personal defense. That and Bella's close relationship to some of the vampires gives the Cullens the right to kill James in order to protect her and the coven.


Still… Die, Bella, die! :twisted:
I'm actually an anti. I don't like the Twilight series at all.

I'm here because I enjoy discussing literature and I think it's often much more interesting to talk to people who disagree with you.

And yes, I have read the books. ;)
Esme echo
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Esme echo »

Shakespeare wrote:How far is it appropriate to push your opinion onto another person if you feel their personal decisions are self-destructive? I don't think it's ever right to decide something for another person. Advice is fine, but you need to remember that you are not necessarily right about everything. If the decision is extremely destructive, a third party should be notified so that they can intervene. But if it's just you who finds the behavior self-destructive, you don't have the right to control a person's actions.
What is the difference between you intervening and a third party intervening? It's interferrence whichever occurs. Is suicide wrong? Is it wrong to try to prevent it?
Shakespeare wrote:Carlisle is a bit more complicated. He has tried to force his lifestyle on the Volturi and really, in my opinion, isn't that understanding about their choice to feed on humans. I think he acted a bit contemptuous toward them, but it's been a while since I read the books, so I could be wrong. I don't think that attitude was right, as it is not his place to dictate the lives of others.
Carlisle made no attempt to force his lifestyle on the Volturi. They each tried to pursuade the other to their point of view, and when they parted it was totally amicable.
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
Shakespeare
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Shakespeare »

Esme echo wrote:What is the difference between you intervening and a third party intervening? It's interferrence whichever occurs. Is suicide wrong? Is it wrong to try to prevent it?
The difference is that, when a third party is involved, it is no longer one person forcing their own views on another. The third party checks to see if the behavior really is destructive enough to warrant intervention. It's like the difference between an absolute monarchy and a democracy. We can't play God and assume we're always right, but we also shouldn't ignore the self-destructive decisions of others.
Yes, suicide is wrong. It's also a sign that a person has deeper issues preventing him or her from making sensible decisions. That is why there are organizations to notify if someone is suicidal.
Esme echo wrote:Carlisle made no attempt to force his lifestyle on the Volturi. They each tried to pursuade the other to their point of view, and when they parted it was totally amicable.
Were they? I could have been wrong. I guess I always got the impression that their friendship was just a show.
I'm actually an anti. I don't like the Twilight series at all.

I'm here because I enjoy discussing literature and I think it's often much more interesting to talk to people who disagree with you.

And yes, I have read the books. ;)
Esme echo
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Esme echo »

[Personally, I'd rather a friend tried to force their opionion on me than a "third party" who didn't know me!]
To avoid personal involvement--merely referring someone to "an expert" for intervention--seems a lot like a cop-out to me. If someone I have a relationship with is self-destructing, my first effort will be a personal appeal to re-think their position. After my personal appeal has shown itself to be ineffective--if there was danger--I would willingly seek professional help ... and continue to friendship and support the individual. I don't think we do anyone any favors by witholding perspective or equivocating about what is important to us.

One of the most important aspects of Rose's decision to share her story, however, is that she ASKED Bella's permission. Then, after she got it off her chest, Rose dropped the subject (as previously mentioned). I think Rose had a moral obligation to seek permission to share her experience. It feels criminal to me to have information that can benefit another person and not seek to share it.

Re Carlisle: there was no falseness on Carlisle's part in his friendship with the Volturi. But Aro was as dishonest as they come--had been for millennia--totally consumed with the need for power. I don't believe Carlisle ever tried to force anyone to do anything. He was all about negotiation and persuasion.

I know you disliked the books, Shakespeare, so I hesitate to recommend that you read them again; I can only say that I understood a lot more about the character's motivations the second time I read through the series.
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
SparklingDiamond
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by SparklingDiamond »

Edward is a different problem. His entire argument against the transformation is based solely on belief. Nobody really knows about vampire souls, yet he thinks he has the right to force his views on Bella. His entire argument is then weakened by his views on Carlisle's decision to transform people.
Yes, Edward's opinions are based solely on belief. But isn't that what we based many of our opinions on? Isn't that the difference between a fact and an opinion in the first place? Edward has his beliefs and Carlisle and Bella have theirs. All are opinions and all are valid. Neither of the parties has the factual information necessary to turn their opinion or belief into a fact. I have to believe that if my husband was doing something that I desperately believed would take his soul, or however you want to look at it, I'd do everything in my power to help him. Edward is acting out of love. He doesn't want Bella to throw away her soul FOR HIM. I can't say that I'd want that on my shoulders either. He knows that he can't force her hand either way, but he feels morally obligated to share his opinions with the love of his life so that she can form an informed opinion of her own.
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December
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by December »

Shakespeare wrote:Edward is a different problem. His entire argument against the transformation is based solely on belief. Nobody really knows about vampire souls, yet he thinks he has the right to force his views on Bella. His entire argument is then weakened by his views on Carlisle's decision to transform people. (If the problem is about souls, why does it matter if a person is living or dead?) That, and the fact that Carlisle and Bella both completely disagree with him about the issue, makes it entirely wrong to force his opinions on her. Edward shouldn't have to help with the change, but he also needs to let Bella make her own decisions. His advice is expected, but his attempts to forcefully control the situation are immoral.
You know, as I read it, anxiety over Bella's soul certainly intensifies Edward's terror of seeing Bella become a vampire (until he begins to come round at the end of NM), but it's far from being his sole argument. He sees the vampire's existence as terrible in itself: very nearly a fate worse than death. Certainly worse than any life. "We would trade anything to be human...any one of us would stand in fire for it. Burn for as many days or centuries as was necessary." (MS p. 263). However much Bella loves him, however much he loves her, Edward finds it almost impossible to imagine that she could be happier with him as a vampire than if she stayed human -- even without him. Not just because he underestimates the strength of her love for him (which he certainly does -- perhaps understandably -- until Volterra), but because he is agonizingly aware of everything that is empty, bleak, monstrous and painful about a vampire's existence. He's right to fear that fate for Bella (or so it seemed, at any rate, until BD obliged us to rethink our reading of EC and NM). Just wrong not to recognize that in the end, for Bella the trade-off is still worth it. That she loves him so profoundly that even the difficulty and the horror pales to insignificance.

But that's not something she's in a position to assess properly either, at least to start with, which is why he's unwilling to take her breathless eagerness to give up her life at face value. Not until the end of Eclipse, when she has at last looked past the sparkly glamour of superhuman speed and strength and eternal teenage romance to the realities of what she is taking on and giving up. Unending temptation, and pain, the loss of family and friends -- all of humankind in fact -- childlessness and changelessness and the horror of craving other people's deaths, even if you never succumb to your vile desires....

Of course as it turns out, none of that was true at all. Which certainly does seem to undermine Edward's position -- and the significance of Bella's agonizing choice. One reason that some readers have trouble seeing BD in canonical sequence with the books that lead up to it....
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Destani
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Destani »

I think the problem I have with Edward not wanting Bella to become a vampire is that he wasn't even willing to discuss the matter with her at first. He tried to hide the facts from her in Twilight because he didn't want the decision to be hers. He had already decided for her and as far as he was concerned, she was not going to be changed. He was going to do everything in his power to keep her human regardless of what she wanted and he didn't even want her to have the facts to make an informed decision. He was furious with Alice for explaining things to her. He wanted Bella to be kept in the dark.

Rosalie, on the other hand, came to Bella and offered up her story so Bella could consider the negative aspect of her choice. As others have said, she did not try to force Bella one way or the other. She merely gave her some advice.

Now I do take the relationship Bella had with each of them into consideration. Rosalie and Bella were not close so Rose really wasn't in a position to do more than she did. However I feel that Edward overstepped his bounds as significant other by not taking Bella's feelings into account. He had the right to be more adamant in his views, but not to make the choice for Bella. As the series progressed, I felt that he shared more of his opinions on the matter (although sometimes Bella had to drag them out of him) and their relationship became more equal.
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Esme echo
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Esme echo »

I like Edward's comparison of vampire urges to drug addiction. If Edward were addicted to heroin and Bella admired the drug culture, would Edward be "overstepping his bounds as a significant other" in denying Bella information about how to become a drug addict?

Edward had already watched Esme and Rosalie struggle with the loss of their humanity--and he wasn't so sure about how he felt about his own emergency vampirzation. Bella was inclined to leap without a second thought towards a fate that in Edward's eyes was worse than death. I don't think he was out of bounds by trying to keep that fate from Bella--even if she wanted it. I'm thinking of a quote that goes something like, "I love you, and I'll do anything I can to help you be happy, but I won't help you one step towards hell."
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Destani »

I guess it all depends on your personal view of becoming a vampire. In the situation you presented, no I do not think Edward should show Bella how to become a drug addict. However, I view the transformation as more of a personal choice. The best analogy I can think of is deciding on whether or not to have surgery if you have a serious illness. It's a decision that affects your loved ones and they can guide you and share their opinions, but the choice must be yours and you should have as much information as possible.

I can understand why Edward would feel justified, seeing vampirism the way he does, but he should think about the way his family members view things as well. In the vote, he was definitely outnumbered. Most of the Cullens accept what they are and do not share Edward's view on vampirization. While Edward is entitled to his belief regardless of whether others agree or not, he tries to force it on Bella and make the decision for her.

Of course that's just my opinion. You made some very valid points and I had to think on it awhile before I could respond. :)
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aimee_xbella
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by aimee_xbella »

Esme echo wrote:I like Edward's comparison of vampire urges to drug addiction. If Edward were addicted to heroin and Bella admired the drug culture, would Edward be "overstepping his bounds as a significant other" in denying Bella information about how to become a drug addict?

Edward had already watched Esme and Rosalie struggle with the loss of their humanity--and he wasn't so sure about how he felt about his own emergency vampirzation. Bella was inclined to leap without a second thought towards a fate that in Edward's eyes was worse than death. I don't think he was out of bounds by trying to keep that fate from Bella--even if she wanted it. I'm thinking of a quote that goes something like, "I love you, and I'll do anything I can to help you be happy, but I won't help you one step towards hell."
I think that Edward was just thinking about what he thinks is best for Bella. I can't blame him for it, although I think he should have told Bella the information because when it comes down to the core of it, it is still up to Bella. So I guess that Edward cared too much for Bella and Bella didn't care enough about herself.

But Bella, should have considered Edward's point of view also, instead of just jumping into it. You can see how she then sees Edward's view a bit in Breaking Dawn when she tells him that she wants to go to college and wait a while.

So yes, I think he is out of bounds, but I also think that Bella should have listened to him and just considered it.
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