Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

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Leoni
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Leoni »

I do agree with everyone here who has said that Edward was out of his bounds by trying to control the whole Bella-vampirization situation. But then, don't we all do that with people we love? Overstep the mark occassionally when we think we know whats best? Hiding things that may cause pain to people we love? Trying to prevent them from making (what we consider) dangerous mistakes?

Edward may not have treated Bella enough as a strong, intelligent person who knows her own mind by only thinking of it from his point of view but to be fair thats all anyone has to go on - their own experiences. He loves Bella, more than anything and he wasn't trying to convince her to stay human for his own sake was he? It came from a place of love and I doubt anybody here can doubt that.
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Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
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aimee_xbella
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by aimee_xbella »

Leoni wrote:I do agree with everyone here who has said that Edward was out of his bounds by trying to control the whole Bella-vampirization situation. But then, don't we all do that with people we love? Overstep the mark occassionally when we think we know whats best? Hiding things that may cause pain to people we love? Trying to prevent them from making (what we consider) dangerous mistakes?

Edward may not have treated Bella enough as a strong, intelligent person who knows her own mind by only thinking of it from his point of view but to be fair thats all anyone has to go on - their own experiences. He loves Bella, more than anything and he wasn't trying to convince her to stay human for his own sake was he? It came from a place of love and I doubt anybody here can doubt that.
Yes I agree with you, I don't think anyone is blaming Edward for treating her like that. I believe so too, that he did what he did out of his love for her. Although he could have considered what Bella wanted, and Bella should have considered his point of view also.
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Destani
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Destani »

Of course, I never doubted that Edward did it out of love. His intentions were always good. And Bella could have spoken up more for herself and demanded respect and the right to make her own choices. She is just as much to blame (blame really is too harsh a word but I can't think of another one right now) because she didn't step forward and try to compromise. I think the best thing would have been for Bella to sit down one on one with each member of the Cullen family and get their take on being a vampire, the transformation, humanity, etc. But things in real life rarely happen in the ideal way so I wouldn't expect them to be perfect in the books either.
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vampbball
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by vampbball »

December wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:Edward is a different problem. His entire argument against the transformation is based solely on belief. Nobody really knows about vampire souls, yet he thinks he has the right to force his views on Bella. His entire argument is then weakened by his views on Carlisle's decision to transform people. (If the problem is about souls, why does it matter if a person is living or dead?) That, and the fact that Carlisle and Bella both completely disagree with him about the issue, makes it entirely wrong to force his opinions on her. Edward shouldn't have to help with the change, but he also needs to let Bella make her own decisions. His advice is expected, but his attempts to forcefully control the situation are immoral.
You know, as I read it, anxiety over Bella's soul certainly intensifies Edward's terror of seeing Bella become a vampire (until he begins to come round at the end of NM), but it's far from being his sole argument. He sees the vampire's existence as terrible in itself: very nearly a fate worse than death. Certainly worse than any life. "We would trade anything to be human...any one of us would stand in fire for it. Burn for as many days or centuries as was necessary." (MS p. 263). However much Bella loves him, however much he loves her, Edward finds it almost impossible to imagine that she could be happier with him as a vampire than if she stayed human -- even without him. Not just because he underestimates the strength of her love for him (which he certainly does -- perhaps understandably -- until Volterra), but because he is agonizingly aware of everything that is empty, bleak, monstrous and painful about a vampire's existence. He's right to fear that fate for Bella (or so it seemed, at any rate, until BD obliged us to rethink our reading of EC and NM). Just wrong not to recognize that in the end, for Bella the trade-off is still worth it. That she loves him so profoundly that even the difficulty and the horror pales to insignificance.

But that's not something she's in a position to assess properly either, at least to start with, which is why he's unwilling to take her breathless eagerness to give up her life at face value. Not until the end of Eclipse, when she has at last looked past the sparkly glamour of superhuman speed and strength and eternal teenage romance to the realities of what she is taking on and giving up. Unending temptation, and pain, the loss of family and friends -- all of humankind in fact -- childlessness and changelessness and the horror of craving other people's deaths, even if you never succumb to your vile desires....

Of course as it turns out, none of that was true at all. Which certainly does seem to undermine Edward's position -- and the significance of Bella's agonizing choice. One reason that some readers have trouble seeing BD in canonical sequence with the books that lead up to it....
Exactly, December. I think that quote in MS where Edward says that the whole Cullen family would return to a human existence given the choice really clarifies his perspective. It also makes me think that there's an additional layer of reasoning to their refusal to prey on humans; it's not just that they feel compassion for humans, but that they're human-centric. They sympathize with humans, and in fact would be humans if they could be. They've somehow managed to retain a human perspective as vampires, and I think this more than anything else sets them apart from other vampires.

One reason that Twilight works as a story is that Bella doesn't have many close ties to begin with. Imagine if she were very close to her mother, and had a lot of friends, and a close extended family...the decision to leave all of that would be incomprehensible, if not outright selfish. I think that it's these sorts of ties that Edward is thinking of when he doesn't want to doom Bella to vampirism (and when he sardonically remarks that hiding is easier when everyone you know is dead). Luckily for the happy couple, Bella never really connected with anyone prior to Edward; she was emotionally isolated to begin with.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by cullen_kissez »

One of my dearest friends - who I grew up with, known her since I was around 4, brought up an interesting point at lunch today. She's a literature teacher at a high school her in Jamaica.. and since she's part of the 'young, hip new crowd' .. she wondered if it would ever be possible for the Twilight Saga to be a textbook.

I mean, I love her to death, as I do the books, but I don't see that.
Then on the other hand - Shane, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Macbeth, A Midsummer's Night's Dream, Romeo & Juliet, Twelfth Night, .. classic literature.. but does the Twilight Saga belong in this list? Don't get me wrong, I'd say yes in a heartbeat - but how goodly or badly would it fare?
.:: why try and fit in when I was born to stand out? ::.

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..and then we continued blissfully into this small but perfect piece of our forever.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by Eternally Dazzled »

vampbball wrote:One reason that Twilight works as a story is that Bella doesn't have many close ties to begin with. Imagine if she were very close to her mother, and had a lot of friends, and a close extended family...the decision to leave all of that would be incomprehensible, if not outright selfish. I think that it's these sorts of ties that Edward is thinking of when he doesn't want to doom Bella to vampirism (and when he sardonically remarks that hiding is easier when everyone you know is dead). Luckily for the happy couple, Bella never really connected with anyone prior to Edward; she was emotionally isolated to begin with.
I agree. Additionally, once Bella got to Forks, her entire life revolved around Edward. She never had the chance to emotionally connect with anyone with Edward around, because her entire life, in a sense, was about him. When she wasn't with him, she thought about him. She yearned for him every minute of the day. I can't find the quote, but in Twilight Bella says that her days in Forks passed in blurs. Sometimes long periods of time would pass before she knew it, and other times she could remember every second (when Edward was with her). And in the rare moments that she wasn't thinking of Edward, she wasn't really making as much of an effort to make connections with other people as she was with being with Edward.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by CrazilyObsessed024 »

vampbball wrote:
December wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:Edward is a different problem. His entire argument against the transformation is based solely on belief. Nobody really knows about vampire souls, yet he thinks he has the right to force his views on Bella. His entire argument is then weakened by his views on Carlisle's decision to transform people. (If the problem is about souls, why does it matter if a person is living or dead?) That, and the fact that Carlisle and Bella both completely disagree with him about the issue, makes it entirely wrong to force his opinions on her. Edward shouldn't have to help with the change, but he also needs to let Bella make her own decisions. His advice is expected, but his attempts to forcefully control the situation are immoral.
You know, as I read it, anxiety over Bella's soul certainly intensifies Edward's terror of seeing Bella become a vampire (until he begins to come round at the end of NM), but it's far from being his sole argument. He sees the vampire's existence as terrible in itself: very nearly a fate worse than death. Certainly worse than any life. "We would trade anything to be human...any one of us would stand in fire for it. Burn for as many days or centuries as was necessary." (MS p. 263). However much Bella loves him, however much he loves her, Edward finds it almost impossible to imagine that she could be happier with him as a vampire than if she stayed human -- even without him. Not just because he underestimates the strength of her love for him (which he certainly does -- perhaps understandably -- until Volterra), but because he is agonizingly aware of everything that is empty, bleak, monstrous and painful about a vampire's existence. He's right to fear that fate for Bella (or so it seemed, at any rate, until BD obliged us to rethink our reading of EC and NM). Just wrong not to recognize that in the end, for Bella the trade-off is still worth it. That she loves him so profoundly that even the difficulty and the horror pales to insignificance.

But that's not something she's in a position to assess properly either, at least to start with, which is why he's unwilling to take her breathless eagerness to give up her life at face value. Not until the end of Eclipse, when she has at last looked past the sparkly glamour of superhuman speed and strength and eternal teenage romance to the realities of what she is taking on and giving up. Unending temptation, and pain, the loss of family and friends -- all of humankind in fact -- childlessness and changelessness and the horror of craving other people's deaths, even if you never succumb to your vile desires....

Of course as it turns out, none of that was true at all. Which certainly does seem to undermine Edward's position -- and the significance of Bella's agonizing choice. One reason that some readers have trouble seeing BD in canonical sequence with the books that lead up to it....
Exactly, December. I think that quote in MS where Edward says that the whole Cullen family would return to a human existence given the choice really clarifies his perspective. It also makes me think that there's an additional layer of reasoning to their refusal to prey on humans; it's not just that they feel compassion for humans, but that they're human-centric. They sympathize with humans, and in fact would be humans if they could be. They've somehow managed to retain a human perspective as vampires, and I think this more than anything else sets them apart from other vampires.

One reason that Twilight works as a story is that Bella doesn't have many close ties to begin with. Imagine if she were very close to her mother, and had a lot of friends, and a close extended family...the decision to leave all of that would be incomprehensible, if not outright selfish. I think that it's these sorts of ties that Edward is thinking of when he doesn't want to doom Bella to vampirism (and when he sardonically remarks that hiding is easier when everyone you know is dead). Luckily for the happy couple, Bella never really connected with anyone prior to Edward; she was emotionally isolated to begin with.

*SPOILERS*
Another thing is that if you read MS he worries that if she'd change, she would hatee him for eternity.
I don't think he is trying to force his views on her. He thinks he is correct and he is trying to save her. But in the end he is happy and I think that is because he has somewhat changed his views on the "damned" thing and he knows that she in fact doesn't hate him for it. :D
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sophieet
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by sophieet »

Another thing is that if you read MS he worries that if she'd change, she would hatee him for eternity.
I don't think he is trying to force his views on her. He thinks he is correct and he is trying to save her. But in the end he is happy and I think that is because he has somewhat changed his views on the "damned" thing and he knows that she in fact doesn't hate him for it.
I agree. Edward had always believed that, as a vampire, he had no soul and wouldn't go to heaven. I think he was just trying to protect her from the 'eternal damnation' that he thought he was facing. He feels so strongly about this that he acts irrationally, not taking Bella's opinions into consideration. I think the main reason he was happy about the outcome in BD was that he knew she would not have survived if he hadn't changed her, so he didn't feel like he was 'killing' her as he would have done if she had any chance at a normal life.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by CrazilyObsessed024 »

sophieet wrote:
Another thing is that if you read MS he worries that if she'd change, she would hatee him for eternity.
I don't think he is trying to force his views on her. He thinks he is correct and he is trying to save her. But in the end he is happy and I think that is because he has somewhat changed his views on the "damned" thing and he knows that she in fact doesn't hate him for it.
I agree. Edward had always believed that, as a vampire, he had no soul and wouldn't go to heaven. I think he was just trying to protect her from the 'eternal damnation' that he thought he was facing. He feels so strongly about this that he acts irrationally, not taking Bella's opinions into consideration. I think the main reason he was happy about the outcome in BD was that he knew she would not have survived if he hadn't changed her, so he didn't feel like he was 'killing' her as he would have done if she had any chance at a normal life.
Thank goodness for that. I'm so glad Edward can finally just let himself be happy. He beats himself up too much throughout the series. Now there is nothing he can freak out over!
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Post by TeamEdward1918 »

CrazilyObsessed024 wrote:Thank goodness for that. I'm so glad Edward can finally just let himself be happy. He beats himself up too much throughout the series. Now there is nothing he can freak out over!
I know, I love that things ended up right for him. He has exactly what he wanted through the entire series, plus a child!

He was able to have Bella changed and yet never has to feel the guilt of what happened. He was saving her. Regardless of my many posts venting about BD, I absolutely LOVE the ending
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