Bella Swan Cullen

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fauna.fleura
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by fauna.fleura »

holdingoutforjacob wrote:well then you're lucky you aren't characters in books aren't you girls??

seriously, esme echo, you're saying it's not fair to make someone look for examples and then saying it's also not fair to make sweeping generalities???

the tone of the books implies that bella is selfless and self-sacrificing.

i shudder to think what the people who refuse to acknowledge bella's faults overlook in real life, if they can't acknowledge faults in a character.

no offense meant, but, point taken esme echo?
i think the whole point of the discussion is that we are acknowledging her faults, isn't it? sm's constant "jabbering" about how selfless bella is is, i think, what people are bringing up the most often.

personally, i think that bella is both. i've disregarded stephenie meyer's commenting about the character's, um...characters because people see things differently. even if you're writing a book in which you want a character to come across a certain way, that's not always achieved in the mind of the reader. i choose to look at bella and decide for myself whether or not she's selfish or selfless. and as i've said before, along with a number of other people, i think she's both.

i respect other people's opinions, but i can't understand how some people can't acknowledge the fact that bella has many selfless moments. it seems a little antagonistic and hateful to me.

and, btw, you need to calm yourself. we're just having a friendly discussion here. :|
"Go Gators! It's about time somebody scored around here." -Emmett, Breaking Dawn

Team Edward, yo.
BuffytheVampireLover
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by BuffytheVampireLover »

Amivera wrote:I thought this was really funny. It's a little off-topic, but I wasn't sure where to put it.
From this link: http://otahyoni.livejournal.com/130432.html#cutid1
The Twilight Catalog

Number of Pages in the Book: 498
The First Hint of a Plot that Is Not Bella and Edward's Romance: page 328
When the Plot Actually Arrives: page 372

Boys that Totally Love Bella (Including Edward Cullen): 5

Approximate Amount of Time Bella and Edward are Romantically Involved Before Bella Is Begging Edward to Turn Her into a Vampire so They Can Be Together Forever: Like, two weeks. Maybe three. The timeline's a bit fuzzy.

References to Edward's Beauty: 165

Broken Down into the following categories -

* Face: 24 (Favorite adjectives: glorious, heavenly, seraphic)
* Voice: 20 (The voice of an archangel, donchaknow.)
* Eyes: 17
* Movement: 11
* Smile: 10
* Teeth: 8
* Muscles: 7
* Skin: 7 (Note: This only contains accounts of Edward's skin being beautiful. I didn't count references to it as "pale," "cold," or "white." If I had, this number would be about ten times larger.)
* Iron Strength or Limbs: 5
* Breath: 4 (EVEN HIS BREATH IS AMAZING.)
* Scent: 4
* Laughter: 3
* Handwriting: 2
* Chest: 2
* Driving Skills: 1


The Number of Times...

* Bella Is Clumsy or Makes a Reference to Her Clumsiness: 26
* Bella Sneers at Forks or Its Inhabitants: 22
* Bella is "Dazzled" or Rendered Speechless by Edward's Beauty or Touch: 17
* Edward Tells Bella to Stay Away from Him While Completely Contradicting Himself with His Behavior: 16
* Bella is Utterly Desolate at Edward's Absence: 12
* Edward and Bella Kiss: 8
o Bella's Hormones Get the Better of Her and She Attacks Edward, Almost Causing Him to Eat Her: 2 (She's not even allowed to kiss him back! Where's the fun in that?)
o Edward's Kiss Makes Bella Faint: 1
o Edward's Kiss Makes Bella's Heart Literally Stop: 1
* Bella Thinks She Isn't Good Enough for Edward: 6
* Edward Is Referred to As Godlike: 5 (Note: This number might be off, as I didn't start counting until three or four mentions in.)
* Edward Tells Bella She's Unnatural: 5
* Edward Sparkles: 3
* Bella is in Mortal Danger: 3
o Edward Saves Bella from Mortal Danger: 3
* Edward Stalks Bella, For Real: 2 (Note: One of these instances involves watching her sleep every night for, like, months.)
* Bella says "Holy Crow!": 2
* Bella and Edward Argue About Who Loves the Other Most: 1
* Edward's Inability to Read Bella's Mind is Explained: 0
It's not exact, but fairly accurate. XD
Haha this is awesome! Random, but this is just like The Ring Count, from Lord of the Rings. I dunno if anyone's read it, but it's just like this and hysterical. "Number of times Gandalf looks extremely fluffy: 16"

As for the whole Bella argument going on, I'm just gonna throw in my two cents really quick: I think that she is flawed like everyone. She and Edward are both exceedingly selfish at times, and exceedingly selfless at other times. I personally just don't relate to Bella very much, and I feel like I would handle a lot of things very differently than she does. However, I don't think that makes her a bad person. I think she just has her flaws. I mean, Edward does too. He's the most anal, overreactive person I've ever seen. Doesn't mean I don't love him to death. You can find flaws in Bella, think badly of things about her, and still love her and/or the series. Okay, as you were.
*Jenny*

"Why don't you try to dig a little deeper and find a bigger set of balls, because you're going to need them."

Hey Jacob, 'I told you so' has a twin brother; his name is 'shut the hell up'.


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Auctorita
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by Auctorita »

Esme echo wrote: It's also not very fair to ask someone to comb through the books looking for examples--except when they accuse the author of incompetence and vilify the main character. Without specific examples, sweping generalities are not credible to me.

(I'm really glad none of you who are so down on Bella's imperfections are examining my life! Whew!) :lol:
I think that you have misunderstood me. It was never my intention to make Bella look bad or insult S. Meyer nor do I believe that I ever made any comment that referred to her as a poor writer or Bella as nothing but selfish. Already on this thread I have stated that I do not think of Bella as only selfish but like many others as a mix of both sides. What I was pointing out was that there is a lot of emphasis placed on Bella's selfless side while her selfish side is barely acknowledged (this includes characters other than Bella and Edward). With the accusations that I'm trying to insult the author, I was trying to back up my view that what is told to the reader is sometimes contradicted with what is shown. Having flaws in your writing does not necessarily make you a bad writer nor does pointing them out mean that your trying to prove that they are bad at it. There is no one that I know of who has absolutely flawless writing that no criticisms can be made against (prove me wrong!). I was never trying to convince anyone that Meyer is a bad author for having a flaw in her writing, I was just agreeing with a comment that mentioned it in another thread (it somehow turned into this lovely little discussion :) ).

Back to Bella and the selfless/selfish issue. There is a definite emphasis placed on Bella's selfless actions and her selfish actions are largely ignored by everyone in the books. Again, I'm not trying to push this idea of Bella as completely selfish and agree that she is in the middle. All of this emphasis on only her selfless actions creates a tone that Bella is this very selfless character but the events in the books and her behavior clearly show us that she is not so one-sided, she a fairly even mix of both. It may be from Bella's perspective, but she isn't full of herself and seems to be at least aware of many of her flaws. That's at least how I interpreted it, although I prefer to come to my own conclusions about characters. With examples it's not as simple as the author or other characters blatantly using the word "selfless" specifically in describing Bella.
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moon sidhe
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by moon sidhe »

^^Thanks for clarifying! I agree with much of that. I wonder if part of the reason many of the other characters don't call Bella out on her flaws is because they realize that her self-esteem is rather low.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
BerAngelVamp
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by BerAngelVamp »

my two cents :) : i think bella could be counted as both selfless and selfish....everyone can. she is selfless in that she does not want others to fuss over her, worry for her or cause them unnecessary worry or work regarding her. some of it could be b/c of her obvious low self esteem, but she has been her mother's caretaker for so long it feels strange for anyone to try and take care of her....she tries to make others happy even if she is miserable....she is selfish in that she know what it will take for her to be a sane person....if that thing happens to be edward, so be it....the only really selfish thing i saw her do was ask him to stay out of the fight in Eclipse, and that actually turned out to be a good thing...i think people in general become selfish when it comes to their other halves, even every once in a while....bella is human, as we all are (i think, haha! :roll: ) and she has her flaws....but we all do...it's a matter of do i not like them for their flaws or do i like them regardless of their flaws and accept them as they are, flaws and all.... ;)
~Amber
fauna.fleura
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by fauna.fleura »

moon sidhe wrote:^^Thanks for clarifying! I agree with much of that. I wonder if part of the reason many of the other characters don't call Bella out on her flaws is because they realize that her self-esteem is rather low.
that's certainly something to consider. i hadn't even thought of that, but it would make sense.
"Go Gators! It's about time somebody scored around here." -Emmett, Breaking Dawn

Team Edward, yo.
Esme echo
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by Esme echo »

Thank you, ladies, for your patience! My ruffled feathers have all been smoothed down! :lol:

Why do you think Bella was so willing to risk her life--even die--just to be around Edward in Twilight? Bella's sense of self-preservation seems a little random, sometimes. I understand compulsion (thanks to SM!), but compulsion that leads to self-destruction? Just how blind can true love of the soul-mate variety make an inexperienced, needy young girl?
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
moon sidhe
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by moon sidhe »

I don't think that it was only for Edward that she was willing to sacrifice it, although knowing him was the cause of most of those situations. She was willing to sacrifice it for Renée in Twilight, when she thought Seth was going to get hurt in Eclipse, and for Renesmée. I think that Bella never valued her own life very highly at all. Maybe some combination of low self-esteem and the "caretaker" issue? She'd rather sacrifice herself to make sure those around her can live because in her mind, her own life just isn't that important.

eta: I just realized I didn't exactly answer your question. haha. I have no idea why she wasn't weirded out by Edward like a "normal" human should have been, but perhaps that goes back to the self-esteem thing too? I'm just blaming everything on that. :) Her, well, staying alive, doesn't often seem to factor into her decisions.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by navarre »

At the end of the day, all of these characters are flawed, period. Who cares? These are still wonderful characters, flaws and all and they still hold my attention even after reading through the saga ten times.
Their flaws still make them fascinating and the stories fantastic! That's all that matters to me.

Everyone, including these characters are selfless and selfish - that's human and vampire. lol!
I enjoy living vicariously through this wonderful world called Twilight. Stephenie paints a fun fantasy with characters that are relatable and interesting and stories that are exciting and dramatic and funny and this saga allows me to escape from my otherwise very intense world/life - that's what it's all about. ;)
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Esme echo
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen

Post by Esme echo »

I agree with you, navarre! That's exactly how I feel about Twilight! :D

moon sidhe, I was specifically referring to Bella's willingness to die in the meadow and her refusal to tell anyone where she was and who she was with. ...I guess I was also thinking of their discussion in the car on the way home form Port Angeles: the whole "it doesn't matter" discussion. I'm not saying Bella should have behaved differently, I'm just interested in the fact that Edward's appeal for her overrode even the most basic of human instincts: self-preservation.

I just remembered Jacob's comment when he discovered that Bella was determined to die for Renesmee: classic martyr. Perhaps that's the answer. Leaving out relationship mistakes for the moment, Bella's life is not more important to her than the safety and happiness of those she loves.

More musing here: I wonder if the fact that Bella had never had that many people in her life to love (only Renee and Charlie before she got to Forks) was a factor in how hard she clung to her relationships and tried to protect all those that she now had to love. Even brotherly love can be a heady thing when one has never had it before.
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
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