Edward Cullen #5

[The Dark Knight]

Oooh, good one! I have thought about this long and hard, believe it or not! And I came up with my answer after reading MS. No worries, ladies and germs, I will try not to spoil the plot of MS too much for those of you who haven't read it yet.

I initially thought that Edward was being honest, and, as you put it, "the most ridiculously selfless person in the world". However. . .Edward comments that Jacob fights dirtier than he does. Now, if you don't read very much into Edward's actions during this whole book, one might think him innocent, truly a selfless person who will sit back and let Bella do what she wants without a fight.

BUT. Reading deeper into things, I really think Edward is playing dirty. He knows what he is doing, and he is good enough not to let Bella figure it out. Jake figured it out, though, and told Bella, to which she replied that "Edward is not playing any game!" Naive, foolish, gullible Bella. Edward was playing hard and fast.

Edward may not feel he deserves Bella, but he knows to some extent how she views him. One of the most significant concepts that Bella has about Edward is that he is selfless. If Edward went all crazy at Bella over Jake's kiss, he would have shown her that he is definitely not as selfless or innocent as he seems, and that would not help his case. She would have realized that what he had said in the past wasn't completely true - y'know, the part about him being willing to leave if that was the decision she made? And things would have crumbled slightly from there.

But then again, we all know that Edward had to be crazed with jealousy over that kiss. He didn't show it much though. To me, that was in true selfless-Edward form. If he had shown how hurt he was, Bella would be in even more agony knowing how much pain she is causing Edward. Instead, he keeps it bottled up and tries to make her happy again. In true Edward fashion.

Honestly, I like Edward and the concept of him being "the perfect guy," even though he isn't. But this scene - and the idea that he is playing dirty to try and keep Bella - made me like him even more. It humanized him, made him realistic. He was so desperate to keep Bella that he fought dirty over her. . .And even better, he was so good at it, he did it without her knowing. Nice.

Now what I find interesting is that in MS, he promises himself that he would tell Bella the truth whenever possible, because she deserved honesty from him. Obviously, he lies to her several times. So. . .does this mean that he isn't as selfless as he seems, or that it is just a part of him and Jake playing dirty, and is therefore forgivable?

Opulent, is it not true that Edward Lied to Bella in New Moon, that he no longer wanted her?

[Amanda Beth]

He did lie to her. I think I can safely quote "You’re not good for me, Bella."

[spicey16]

Now what I find interesting is that in MS, he promises himself that he would tell Bella the truth whenever possible, because she deserved honesty from him. Obviously, he lies to her several times. So. . .does this mean that he isn't as selfless as he seems, or that it is just a part of him and Jake playing dirty, and is therefore forgivable?

Opulent,

I don't recall Edward lying to Bella. He opts not to tell her certain things but that isn't lying.

Actually, Kachiti, he does lie, a lot, when it comes to Bella, and i consider omiting, lying. He lies in NM when he is leaving her. He lies in Eclipse about much of what is going on with the newborns ect. But we must say that everything he does he does to protect bella. He also lies to himself. He lies to himself about wanting bella to change and about what Alice's visoins mean. He is always trying to protect everyone. Yes edward is always trying to do the right thing, but like DK likes to point out... Does that make it right?

I think that he is selfless in the sense that he would hurt himself to save another, however, i dont think in Eclipse that he is being selfless, i do think he is playing the game. He is just better at it because Bella wants him. If bella wanted Jacob then jacob would have seemed the better player.

[Dovrebanen]

I have to put in my two cents here. I don't see Edward playing the game as Jacob does. Yes, Edward knows that Jacob is listening outside the tent when he reveals that he and Bella are getting married. But we have to consider that Edward just spent the night in a small tent with his girlfriend inside the sleeping bag with a guy who is in love with her, and who really enjoyed being there and did not try to hide it. I mean, I would be a bit upset by that fact too. Edward was thankful to Jacob for making Bella feel better in the tent, but of course he was jealous about what Jacob could do for her.

But I don't see how Edward was playing any games. He had Bella. If anything, he was trying to make her not want to be with him. Part of him would even want her to choose Jacob. I see it as Edward being selfless. He was still giving Bella the choice to leave him, even if he wanted her. He did say that he would fight for her too and I know he would. But I don't see him fighting like Jacob, nor did he have to or want to. If Bella didn't want him, Edward was willing to accept that. So I think the fact that he wasn't mad when she kissed Jacob reflects how scared he was and how bad he felt for her when she had to make a choice like that in order to be with him. All that matter to him was that Bella was okay and that she made the choice that was right for her. So I do think that he was hurt by the fact that she kissed Jacob, he would never show it. Nor would his own happiness ever matter more to him than hers, and so he wasn't mad at her. He only wanted to comfort her. And like it or not, but kissing Jacob made Bella realize that she had to choose Edward. And so Edward knew that she was sure.

Edward did lie to Bella on several occasions. The worst of all was of course the big one in NM. He even admitted that that was the worst lie he ever could have told. But he felt he had to at the time. Because she wasn't going to let him go, and he had to leave. He also lied about Victoria. I don't think he should have done that. I know he meant to protect Bella, but I think it would be better if she knew and was prepared for what was about to happen. And it was not his choice to make to protect her. It was her life, and she had the right to know.

I also want to comment on the debate that has been going on here. I think this thread is the perfect place to discuss Edward. We have to discuss both his advantages and his flaws, in order to discuss the character in depth. That's what's interesting about Edward.

[opulent]

But I don't see how Edward was playing any games. He had Bella. If anything, he was trying to make her not want to be with him. Part of him would even want her to choose Jacob. I see it as Edward being selfless. He was still giving Bella the choice to leave him, even if he wanted her. He did say that he would fight for her too and I know he would. But I don't see him fighting like Jacob, nor did he have to or want to. If Bella didn't want him, Edward was willing to accept that. So I think the fact that he wasn't mad when she kissed Jacob reflects how scared he was and how bad he felt for her when she had to make a choice like that in order to be with him. All that matter to him was that Bella was okay and that she made the choice that was right for her. So I do think that he was hurt by the fact that she kissed Jacob, he would never show it. Nor would his own happiness ever matter more to him than hers, and so he wasn't mad at her. He only wanted to comfort her. And like it or not, but kissing Jacob made Bella realize that she had to choose Edward. And so Edward knew that she was sure.[/color][

So in response to all of this, I went back and reread the passage after the kiss, between Edward and Bella. That caused me to rethink my position somewhat. I definitely think that Edward was playing. In a way, I think he has been playing a game all along to win Bella - remember in MS, after he realized he loved her, he said he sat there and began to plot.

It's not so much that he is playing against Jacob. In this scene, like someone before me said in their post, he is trying to help Bella make the decision once and for all. If anything else, I think she is more confused after the kiss with Jacob - even though she knows her choice will always be Edward, now that she realizes that she loves Jake too, it makes it that much more painful for her.

Edward asks her "Bella, did you really believe that he was that noble? That he would go out in a flame of glory just to clear the way for me?" I don't think that Jake is noble either. But I do think that Edward only pointed this out to show Bella who the better person here is.
Later, Edward says "No - you don't understand. I'm not just trying to make you feel better, Bella, I really mean it."
I think he does really mean it, but that, again , he is trying to get Bella to make her choice. And to me, when someone is doing something for a reason other than the one they give out loud, and when they try to hide the real reason, then they are playing a game.
Edward is trying to make Bella feel better, if only for the fact that he wants her to be happy. And he does mean what he says. But I think he has an ulterior motive: Make Bella choose. It is my opinion that it means he is playing a game.

And something else I thought of - when Edward and Jake were having their conversation in the tent while Bella "slept". Jake says - "I'd tell her all of this but she would never believe me." Edward says "I know." And at the very end of the conversation, he starts humming the lullaby. I have a hunch that Edward knew Bella wasn't asleep. He knew she heard the whole conversation. And I think he wanted her to hear it. At the end, he was just trying to put her to sleep with the lullaby. I think this is another indication that he is playing a game. I am not yet sure why he wanted her to hear all of this, but he did.

Opulent, is it not true that Edward Lied to Bella in New Moon, that he no longer wanted her?[/color]

Sorry, yes, everyone is right about Edward lying. Honestly, I was so sleep-deprived at five in the morning that I couldn't think of any examples. How pathetic is that?

[holdingoutforjacob]

Not pathetic at all, really. He doesn't lie in a malicious way. I certainly wouldn't say that dishonesty is a part of his character. But the truth is, he does hide a lot from Bella, a lot of the time. This, of course, is for her own good, or so he thinks. But if Bella doesn't have all the information, then she can't act accordingly.

[The Dark Knight]

But I don't see how Edward was playing any games. He had Bella. If anything, he was trying to make her not want to be with him. Part of him would even want her to choose Jacob. I see it as Edward being selfless. He was still giving Bella the choice to leave him, even if he wanted her. He did say that he would fight for her too and I know he would. But I don't see him fighting like Jacob, nor did he have to or want to. If Bella didn't want him, Edward was willing to accept that. So I think the fact that he wasn't mad when she kissed Jacob reflects how scared he was and how bad he felt for her when she had to make a choice like that in order to be with him. All that matter to him was that Bella was okay and that she made the choice that was right for her. So I do think that he was hurt by the fact that she kissed Jacob, he would never show it. Nor would his own happiness ever matter more to him than hers, and so he wasn't mad at her. He only wanted to comfort her. And like it or not, but kissing Jacob made Bella realize that she had to choose Edward. And so Edward knew that she was sure.[/color][

So in response to all of this, I went back and reread the passage after the kiss, between Edward and Bella. That caused me to rethink my position somewhat. I definitely think that Edward was playing. In a way, I think he has been playing a game all along to win Bella - remember in MS, after he realized he loved her, he said he sat there and began to plot.

It's not so much that he is playing against Jacob. In this scene, like someone before me said in their post, he is trying to help Bella make the decision once and for all. If anything else, I think she is more confused after the kiss with Jacob - even though she knows her choice will always be Edward, now that she realizes that she loves Jake too, it makes it that much more painful for her.

Edward asks her "Bella, did you really believe that he was that noble? That he would go out in a flame of glory just to clear the way for me?" I don't think that Jake is noble either. But I do think that Edward only pointed this out to show Bella who the better person here is.
Later, Edward says "No - you don't understand. I'm not just trying to make you feel better, Bella, I really mean it."
I think he does really mean it, but that, again , he is trying to get Bella to make her choice. And to me, when someone is doing something for a reason other than the one they give out loud, and when they try to hide the real reason, then they are playing a game.
Edward is trying to make Bella feel better, if only for the fact that he wants her to be happy. And he does mean what he says. But I think he has an ulterior motive: Make Bella choose. It is my opinion that it means he is playing a game.

And something else I thought of - when Edward and Jake were having their conversation in the tent while Bella "slept". Jake says - "I'd tell her all of this but she would never believe me." Edward says "I know." And at the very end of the conversation, he starts humming the lullaby. I have a hunch that Edward knew Bella wasn't asleep. He knew she heard the whole conversation. And I think he wanted her to hear it. At the end, he was just trying to put her to sleep with the lullaby. I think this is another indication that he is playing a game. I am not yet sure why he wanted her to hear all of this, but he did.

Opulent, is it not true that Edward Lied to Bella in New Moon, that he no longer wanted her?[/color]

Sorry, yes, everyone is right about Edward lying. Honestly, I was so sleep-deprived at five in the morning that I couldn't think of any examples. How pathetic is that?

Opulent, I would have to agree that Edward is playing the game for Bella's hand. He runs circles around poor Jacob and I found myself LOL often as I read it. The tent scene in Eclipse really drove that home to me. However, I have found many on the Lexicon are emotional wrapped up in Edward to the point of not being able see this.

As to your inquiry about why Edward wants Bella to have an over the top fully informed decision before he turns her it comes down to a simple view that Edward has of himself. He see's himself as a monster and unworthy to have her. MS makes this clear to us. It's because of his self loathing that he puts the extra effort in, IMO.

[opulent]

Yeah, I got to say DK, I cracked up quite a bit too. . .But I like clever men, and Edward is definitely that.

And yeah, I have found that the old adage "love is blind" certainly applies to quite a few people here on the Lex. I like Edward too. . .A lot. . .but I still can see his faults at least.

And I guess that I didn't really see Edward giving anything surprising away about himself during the conversation, and that is why his motive confused me, but you could be right about him wanting Bella to know what she is getting into. There are a few times where he thinks Bella doesn't completely understand what she is getting herself into, but I think he doesn't always give her enough credit. Bella is simply courageous enough to face most of it head-on, whereas he considers it more of a stupid, bullheaded thoughtlessness on her part.

And I feel really stupid for having to ask, but what in the world does IMO mean?

[The Dark Knight]

Yeah, I got to say DK, I cracked up quite a bit too. . .But I like clever men, and Edward is definitely that.

And yeah, I have found that the old adage "love is blind" certainly applies to quite a few people here on the Lex. I like Edward too. . .A lot. . .but I still can see his faults at least.

And I guess that I didn't really see Edward giving anything surprising away about himself during the conversation, and that is why his motive confused me, but you could be right about him wanting Bella to know what she is getting into. There are a few times where he thinks Bella doesn't completely understand what she is getting herself into, but I think he doesn't always give her enough credit. Bella is simply courageous enough to face most of it head-on, whereas he considers it more of a stupid, bullheaded thoughtlessness on her part.

And I feel really stupid for having to ask, but what in the world does IMO mean?

Thanks for backing me on the love is blind thing...I was beginning to think I was on another planet...

IMO (in my opinion) no worries acronyms abound

Edward is amazingly clever and can forcast several moves ahead of people...he appears to a chess player in his thinking patterns. Oh no, I said something nice...where's the lighting going to strike next....

[holdingoutforjacob]

Love IS blind, and you certainly won't find me defending the mantra that Edward can do no wrong.

However, the people who love Edward DO have some very valid points. The problem is, people who love Edward and don't see his faults are looking, usually, solely from Edward's POV, while others of us look from an objective POV. I think to find the truth, you have to have both.