Imprinting

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Knives
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Knives » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:37 am

Okay...but however you spin it, Imprinting is starting to look really inefficient. Honestly, Quil would have a better chance of spreading the wolf gene if he spent those years sleeping around the town than he would waiting for Claire, with the fun part being that nothing stops him from being with Claire when she grows up. Likewise Jacob, et all. And honestly, the whole idea of imprinting has some sticky connotations, such as child training (Claire) and stalking/obsession/potential rape. Not all of those who get imprinted on are going to be through the moon about it - they'll have boyfriends, husbands, the wrong sexuality (woe be unto the wolf who lusts after a lesbian) or just plain disinterest, and then what happens? In the wild, a wolf would try to rape his mate-to-be. With the human influence, maybe it's "just" obsession and stalking, but maybe not. You only turn imprinting into something Disney-esque by ignoring the logical ramifications.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by The girlie-wolf » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:29 pm

What I'm trying to say is that we don't know anything. We don't know how much time it will take for Leah to stop phasing if she imprinted. Of course that she will be calmer after imprinting but still. I think that it's too big a chance. I mean that we don't know anything about her anger after imprinting and the age of the imprintee (if there are imprintees that are babies it can be old people as well) and more. So imprinting is suppossed to be a sure thing- to pass the gene which means to have children. But if there is a chance that it won't happen then maybe it won't...
And there is also the obligation they have for the tribe. When there is the chance that vamps can be dangrous for the tribe then the wolves won't stop phasing and leave the tribe unprotected. If there are dangrous vamps when Leah imprints (not the Cullens) then maybe she can't stop phasing. She has to protect the tribe-this is why she was changed.

Another thing is that we don't really know why she changed. We assume that it's because her blood line is too strong and because there had to be more wolves because of the new borns she was turned. But we have to remember that it can be the reason that she thinks is. Maybe Leah IS a dead end. Maybe this is the real reason she changed- the fact that she can't have children. So if it's true she can't imprint if the real purpose of imprinting is passing the gene.

Ringswraith, I know that Paul changed a lot because of Rachele. But his anger almost vanished not because he had to make it that way so he can be with Rachele, it happened because of her. But I still don't think that he is calm enough that he can stop phasing like we excpect Leah too. For example- Jacob says the even Sam is not cakm enough to stop phasing. And Sam has Emily so imprinting can't make you calm enough to stop phasing completly.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by ringswraith » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:49 pm

Well, we can't really say that Paul's "control" is because of Rachel. Remember that in the stories, the wolves from the past had to make a conscious decision to stop phasing and become "normal" humans again (i.e., aging, and all that). (And I think you may be contradicting yourself because, if I'm understanding what you said, you're saying that Paul's control is because of imprinting with Rachel, but Sam imprinted on Emily and he still doesn't have that level of control... Which means the imprint has nothing to do with how well they can control their phasing. Also, that comment Jacob said about Sam is I believe in relation to Sam's ability to stop phasing altogether- not whether or not he can control his temper enough to not just phase anytime he gets upset, which is what I was trying to point out with Paul.)

All that being said, it's true we have no idea whether Leah will imprint or not. From a purely genetic standpoint, I think it would be a waste if she didn't have kids. But with the imprinting process as described, I also think it would be rather unsatisfying to see Leah imprint (kind of like how some are disappointed that Jacob imprinted and didn't get to resolve his issues on his own).

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Re: Imprinting

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:48 am

Knives wrote:Okay...but however you spin it, Imprinting is starting to look really inefficient. Honestly, Quil would have a better chance of spreading the wolf gene if he spent those years sleeping around the town than he would waiting for Claire, with the fun part being that nothing stops him from being with Claire when she grows up. Likewise Jacob, et all. And honestly, the whole idea of imprinting has some sticky connotations, such as child training (Claire) and stalking/obsession/potential rape. Not all of those who get imprinted on are going to be through the moon about it - they'll have boyfriends, husbands, the wrong sexuality (woe be unto the wolf who lusts after a lesbian) or just plain disinterest, and then what happens? In the wild, a wolf would try to rape his mate-to-be. With the human influence, maybe it's "just" obsession and stalking, but maybe not. You only turn imprinting into something Disney-esque by ignoring the logical ramifications.
You're continuing to ignore the other parts of imprinting. Whether you want to call them "Disney-esque" or not, the fact is that this is a concept created for this particular story by this particular author, who tells us certain things.

First of all, the possibility we're all currently agreeing upon is that you imprint to spread the strongest gene. Not just any gene. So, if Claire is the best possible genetic combination with Quil to produce the strongest little wolf babies, then he can spread it around all he wants, he's not going to get little wolves as strong as the ones he would get with Claire.

Secondly, there will be no child training or potential rape. It's stated time and time again, in the books and in interviews, that while maybe the imprinting is based on a genetic equation, the emotional part of it is much more than a sex thing. The imprintee becomes the wolf's entire world, and he becomes exactly what she needs, at the moment.

I'm not defending imprinting - I think being imprinting is Love at it's very worst form, a weapon and an prison as opposed to a life-affirming gift.

Girlie-Wolf: Imprinting has nothing to do with control over phasing out of anger. The whole anger phasing danger issue was brought about when Sam imprinted and hurt Emily, so it already we know that it doesn't make them more stable. Add into that the fact that, in Being Jacob Black, we're told that he has automatically incredible control over his phasing, and he doesn't imprint until 2/3 of the way through the last book, we simply can't say that's true.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your information about Paul and Rachel. And also, according to the story of Taha Aki, they only stop phasing when it's absolutely necessary for them to stay somewhat in line with their imprintee, and only their connection to their imprintee can make them strong enough to do it, because apparently it's hard.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by The girlie-wolf » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:28 am

What I'm trying to say about Paul is that he is happier with Rachele. Because he is happy he is less angry and he coltrols his anger better, or maybe not. But he doesn't get angry from everything like before (like when Jacob punched him). So I guess that imprinting makes you happier (that's for sure) so you are not angry so much so you don't phase every five seconds.... and Sam is calmer then the others but he still can't stop phasing for a long time- return to being human. got it?
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Knives » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:17 am

No child training? I really must beg to differ. Claire is going to grow up with the expectation that she ends up with Quil, from him, from his friends, from her relatives, the whole tribe. And what happens if she decides to refuse? She's ostracized and cast out for "not understanding". Maybe she runs away, but since she's Quil's "whole world", I garuntee you that he tries to track her down. Or she keeps her head down and goes with it to avoid those things - or she's been so thoroughly conditioned to expect the occurence that she marries him gladly. That's more or less the definition of child training right there.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:21 pm

That's all under the assumption that the people surrounding her would tell her about the imprint at all. In fact, no one outside the pack has any idea about imprinting, with the obvious exceptions of the elders and Emily. Furthermore, you're continuing to ignore the other things SM has told us about imprinting, such as "the imprinter becomes everything the imprintee needs, when they need it." So, if Claire was never going to need to be with Quil, he wouldn't have imprinted on her.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by The girlie-wolf » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:10 am

But Quil loves Claire. And like Jacob said, you can't really resist. Quil loves her in a way that we all want aomeone to love us. He puts makeup and dresses so Claire can be happy for 5 minutes... So if he'll do everything to make her happy she'll fall in love with him too... so why should she go away? If she is surounded by familiy, friends and love, why would someone want to leave?
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Re: Imprinting

Post by Knives » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:42 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:That's all under the assumption that the people surrounding her would tell her about the imprint at all. In fact, no one outside the pack has any idea about imprinting, with the obvious exceptions of the elders and Emily. Furthermore, you're continuing to ignore the other things SM has told us about imprinting, such as "the imprinter becomes everything the imprintee needs, when they need it." So, if Claire was never going to need to be with Quil, he wouldn't have imprinted on her.
That statement is seriously fallacious. There is no indication that imprinting comes with a direct jack-in to Fate, which means, at the best assumption of Ms. Meyer's statement, that the imprinter becomes everything he thinks the imprintee needs, which will usually translate closer to what she wants. In fact, it was stated - several times - that imprinting is a genetic urge. It's not true love, and it's certainly not destiny. I get...touchy, when people bring up destiny. As a concept, I hate it. You get free will, or you get destiny. They cannot co-exist. So, Quil either imprinted on Claire because she can provide the best wolf-babies (study biology for awhile and tell me that makes any kind of sense), in which case the various horrible issues I brought up are still in full effect, or Ms. Meyer believes in a world where predestination is prominent, in which case imprinting is a handy excuse for something that would be happening anyway.

Look up child grooming (the proper name for what I was talking about) sometime. Unless Quil backs off of Claire and becomes a transient presence in her life until she's old enough to make her own choices, he's grooming her. He may not see it that way, and the pack may not see it that way, but his relationship with Claire is definitely child grooming.
The girlie-wolf wrote:But Quil loves Claire. And like Jacob said, you can't really resist. Quil loves her in a way that we all want aomeone to love us. He puts makeup and dresses so Claire can be happy for 5 minutes... So if he'll do everything to make her happy she'll fall in love with him too... so why should she go away? If she is surounded by familiy, friends and love, why would someone want to leave?
Because, despite modern misconceptions, it doesn't work that way. For one thing, Claire will, in all likelihood, grow up seeing Quil as an uncle or relative figure. Family. Friend. Not lover. The reason siblings aren't attracted to each other has nothing to do with genetics - it's growing up with that person, being around them all the time, knowing them in the way that family members do. Raise a brother and sister far apart from each other and, if they're chemically/emotionally/mentally compatible, you'll have some awkwardness. Sure, Claire will love Quil - like she'd love an uncle, or a cool older brother. Left to make the choice on her own, not told about the imprint, Quil would end up a very lonely wolf, but since both he and the pack expect him to be with Claire later on, that's highly unlikely.

So, why would she want to leave? Disgust might be one reason. Lack of personal choice. And what happens if she wants to be with another man? Quil certainly isn't going to want to share. Can he swallow his obsession long enough to let her have relationships? Maybe. But if he doesn't, Claire will want to get out from under his shadow. There's all kinds of ways this can go wrong, which is why I - wait for it - don't like imprinting. Aside from being badly researched and worsely-executed, it's a sick mock-up of a healthy relationship. It's not love. It's obsession, and there's a dangerous difference between the two.
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Re: Imprinting

Post by vampirenerd » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:59 pm

First, I do think Claire will know about imprinting. Emily found out as soon as Sam imprinted on her. Just because she's young I don't see why they wouldn't tell her. I have to agree with Rings that first and foremost imprinting is a genetic urge. It's to pass on the wolf genes. At the same time, I don't why it couldn't turn into true love. Spend some time together, get to know each other, and there's no reason it couldn't be a genetic urge AND true love, or at least real love. At the same time, I'm also a little leary about the whole imprinting on a baby thing. I like to just take what SM said, that the wolves "will be everything the imprint needs, when they need it", and leave it at that. But when I really stop and think about it, it's just weird. It even says that the wolf will be a big brother, a best friend, and then her love. I can understand going from best friend to lovers. That happens all the time, and most of the time it makes for a stronger relationship. When you add that big brother in there though, that's just weird. So, you grow up with this guy and he acts like your big brother, he takes care of you, protects you, plays games with you. I can't imagine ever growing up to be with a guy that I grew up thinking of as my big brother.

SM says that it's hard to resist that type of love/attention. Once again that's a statement I like to think about when I don't want to really think about how the imprint thing really works. With all of the other couples that are close in age, that makes complete sense. You get to know this guy and you kinda like him, and he's SO into you, then yeah, it's easy to see how it would be hard to resist. But when you add baby imprints into the mix, I don't see that love/attention as anything other than weird. Even if the wolves understand that they need to be what the imprint needs at certain ages, they still know that in the end they're going to get together in an intimate way. Spending that much time and attention on a small child knowing that the end result is intimacy is a little creepy to think about.

Not sure if that came out as clear as it is in my head, but that's my opinion lol
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