The Science of Twilight

General Discussion on the Twilight Universe

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navarre
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:01 pm

obieewok wrote:I'm not a scientist. I don't have fancy arguments. I can't post big long threads telling you that you are wrong because I don't know for a FACT that you are. You are more than likely much smarter than some junior college wannabe such as I. I can't explain why Edward sparkles, why vampires and werewolves get along, why reneesme exists, etc. But I can say this:

When the chemo got me so sick and so sad, escaping in a book helped me. When I was depressed and wondering why in my 20s I was sick, it was nice to have something else to think about. When I questioned my own mortality, it was fantasy hope that made me like Bella----to know that even in a silly book, people survive. People still keep on.

I guess I'm just saying that while, in science, nothing about the book makes sense, in my little part of the world, it doesn't have to. I just needed to escape my own nightmare for a bit, and I think that is all the author intended. Sometimes thinks really don't have to make sense. What a sad world it would be if everything ever written or performed had to be factual.

I respect your views, honestly I do. You put a lot of research into them. But I'm afraid it's in vain. I doubt anyone who is on this board is going to read your stance and go "Wow. Twilight sucks for me now." No one's mind is usually ever changed on a message board. I think you picked the wrong way to say what you wanted, the wrong place.

While you are free to believe whatever you like, just know that every person on here is here for one reason: Hope. That's the theme of the whole books. Hope. Hope for love. Hope for immortality. Hope for the sake of Hope. Whether it's a love story or defeating the Volturri, it's about hope. Let them have that. There's nothing wrong with believing in a fantasy. There's nothing wrong with believing in a fairytale. Sometimes it's the only thing that makes the big bad real world seem bearable.
Exactly!! Well said, obieewok. Hope things are better for you.

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by jenmick2 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:19 pm

Thank you obieewok for sharing your story. I hope all is well for you. *hugs*

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Bronze Haired Girl
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Bronze Haired Girl » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:19 pm

Time for EVERYONE to step back and take a deep breath. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the science of the Twilight world, NOT to bash, attack, or discount other's opinions and statements. I've glanced through the last few pages and it looks as if we have someone passionate about science stating scientific facts running up against many who are just as passionate about the story.

I long ago stopped trying to explain the Twilight universe with cold hard scientific facts. It can't be done. At that point, deciding that I did like the story, I chose to go with the explanation of "that's the way Stephanie made this world" and moved on.

Don't attack Spiritus because he's trying to state facts of science and why they don't match up with the way things are in the books. Recieve his/her posts as information, not inflamatory remarks.

On the flip side of this, Spiritus, I'm asking that you take into account that the majority here are passionate about the series, they enjoy the story as it's presented and they take a "because she said so" approach to the scientific impossibilities.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and how they choose to view the story. We're not here to argue whether someone's opinions and views are right or wrong. Respect each other's opinions and be civil.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Jadey » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:40 am

Yes Ma'am *military salute* ;)

^ stole that off Jacob.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Spiritus » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:42 am

I must say, the level of joy I got out of pharmer4's post was awesome. Despite the tone I felt in some of your statements (although I think we've all established by now that tone doesn't carry in text, so maybe I'm hearing things), I cannot tell you how pleased I am to get a response like that. It's pretty much exactly what I came here for. I'd like a day or two to really look over your points (and I've got projects due Friday and Monday), so please don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond right away. But seriously, though, thank you.

Two quick things, though. 1) I didn't make a post on the introduction board or anything like that because, well, I'm not interested in the board outside of this one thread, and I don't care to be know by anyone on these boards except those in this one thread. And 2) I promise you, I didn't plagiarize anything from anyone. I used some of arzim's points as springboards (which I owned up to immediately), but I thought that stuff up myself. If those points have been used by someone else, it's coincidence. I would sooner cut my fingers off than steal another's work.

*obieewok: I promise you, making someone say "Twilight sucks for me now" is the last thing I have in mind. You are all perfectly entitled to love the series with all your heart, and no one, not me, not your parents, not the government, has the right to tell you not to like it. My intent is not to make people hate the series. I'm here to have fun, and I hope those of the fandom can have fun with me.

*Bronze Haired Girl: I was actually counting on the majority's passion. I was hoping they'd use that passion to fuel their arguments. But I understand what you're saying and will take it into account.

*navarre: Your good fun speculating about DNA was exactly what I was going for. I confess that I didn't read the entire thread before posting; I was a touch over-eager. I'd love to have that discussion.

*Kyrie: I had never heard of "E-Peen" before I read your post. Thanks for teaching it to me.

And so we're clear, I don't frequent any anti-forums. The only reason I have an account on the "twilightsucks" boards was because I couldn't read arzim's posts unless I had one, which was the only reason I was there. I've made less posts there than I have here (read: only 1), and that's the only anti-board I've ever visited.

Finally, please let me be perfectly clear to everyone about something. I'm not here to troll, I'm not here to ruin anyone's fun, I'm not here to make enemies, I'm not here to make anyone mad. I'm not here to "convert" anyone; seriously, I refuse to push my faith on those who don't want it, much less my opinions of some book series. I apologize if I came on too strong or if it appeared if I was only doing this to annoy you fans. I'm here to have fun. That's all. I promise.

Now, let's go turn rockets into petunias.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by pharmer4 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:05 am

Bronze Haired Girl wrote:I long ago stopped trying to explain the Twilight universe with cold hard scientific facts. It can't be done.

Yeah, it can, i just did!

But I get your point.

@Spiritus If you truly intend to be a contributing member of this thread, then I will agree to continue discussing this topic with you and match argument for argument.

I'd request that, in so doing, you watch how you phrase your posts.

The primary reason you came across as a troll is the opening sentence (I mean, you spitting on something that we all enjoy is a little strong if you don't intend to be seen as just provoking outrage).

And i'll retract my assertion that you plagiarised your points, although a cursory scan of the twilight-hating forums would reveal your lines of thought are not original. That combined with your seeming billigerent attitude, and the fact that I've seen that kind of post many times before on many different forums on many different subjects, made you look troll-ish.

I will finish by posting a scientific curio myself (although I have the answer for this, I'd like to see other people's understanding of them).

"If vampire physiognomy is invulnerable, how do they know they have 25 chromosomes? (actually, I don't recall the number, but you understand my point)."
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navarre
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:20 am

If vampire physiognomy is invulnerable, how do they know they have 25 chromosomes?

Yes, Carlisle stated that while talking to Jacob on page 236 of Breaking Dawn.
I feel that just as human DNA is in every cell - skin, blood, saliva, then vampire DNA is in the venom.
I believe that Carlisle may have studied the venom secreted in the mouth, since this is easily available as opposed to the venom that inhabits the skin cells and the internal parts of the vampire's body.

Of course, that is not to say that at some point in his own research, that he may have studied a deceased vampire(prior to any complete destruction of the body) - an autopy of sorts, maybe? Who knows.
Carlisle, as a doctor and naturally curious, would want to know what differentiates human from vampire.
Why the human gene pool alters so completely. Then later the question, I would think to ask, would be how or why did the gene pool expand two more chromosomes. So forth and so on.

This leads back to my earlier post (prior-Spiritus):

When a vampire sires a newborn the human DNA is obliterated and therefore the newborn becomes the Sire's progeny(child) if you will. Kyrie's wonderful story on Sir Thomas of Surrey and Sybulla his sire who described Thomas as her progeny brought this subject to my attention.

This leads me to think that just as there are bloodlines with the human familial unit, there are vampiric bloodlines in this new creation/unit(am I making sense here?) And that the statement Edward made in BD to Charlie had weight - "Carlisle is a grandfather, too".

Also, Bella commented in the Chapter "Defection" page 560 "..Carlise created Edward, Esme, Rosalie & Emmett; Edward created me. We were physically linked by blood & venom." I found that interesting when I read that. It is easy to go with the scenario that vampires have bloodlines like humans - decendants.

Please, please, please remember I know that I am not a scientist and my knowledge does not expand as deeply as yours, pharmer4 or even yours, Spiritus, but this is FUN & speculation and I just wanted to discuss it in that light.

So, NO mocking me, please. Thank you.

What are your thoughts?
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by jenmick2 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:40 am

I also think that their DNA would be in their hair. Although I doubt their hair could be pulled out from the roots. So that leaves the vemon. So if their vemon carries the creators DNA, would the new vampire have all the DNA of the creator or would the newborn and creators DNA mix? Does that make sense. I am not scientific either :lol:

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navarre
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:43 am

jenmick2 wrote:I also think that their DNA would be in their hair. Although I doubt their hair could be pulled out from the roots. So that leaves the vemon. So if their vemon carries the creators DNA, would the new vampire have all the DNA of the creator or would the newborn and creators DNA mix? Does that make sense. I am not scientific either :lol:
You are right, I meant to include the hair, too. Thanks!

Exactly. I think it does, hence Bella's comment and also why I posted this scenario earlier.
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by ringswraith » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:29 am

The most likely scenario there is a destroyed vampire. Carlisle can easily take a chunk of (insert body part here) himself... though I wonder how you get from there to knowing how many chromosomes there are. /shrug

The concept of a "bloodline" (in the sense that a vampire creates progeny by siring others like itself) isn't new, even considering how it binds the Cullens together (via Carlisle). I'm going to bring in some more fantasy here, courtesy of a role-playing game you may or may not have heard of: White Wolf's Vampire. In this game, vampires belong to a number of clans, each one claiming descent from a specific vampire. Each such vampire has certain abilities and limitations that are passed on to those they sire. So, for example, a vampire from the bloodline with abilities relating to shapeshifting will pass on the seed of those abilities to a human they turn.

Twilight vampires don't seem to have this link of passing on abilities, though they clearly seem to share the concept of "family" in addition to siring. Take a look at the covens- chances are, one of them was the "father" or "mother" of the rest. (Certainly true in the case of the Denali sisters, excluding Carmen and Eleazar, as they joined them later. I believe it is true in the case of Amun and the Egyptian coven.)

I don't think the "victim" would inherit all the vampire's DNA during the transformation. I mean, if that were the case, wouldn't the victim end up looking exactly like the vampire?

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