The Science of Twilight

General Discussion on the Twilight Universe

Moderators: December, bac, Bronze Haired Girl, cullengirl

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules
User avatar
navarre
Finding Stuff in Billy's Trunk
Posts: 3586
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Swimming in a sea of books, books and more books

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:38 am

ringswraith wrote:The most likely scenario there is a destroyed vampire. Carlisle can easily take a chunk of (insert body part here) himself... though I wonder how you get from there to knowing how many chromosomes there are. /shrug

The concept of a "bloodline" (in the sense that a vampire creates progeny by siring others like itself) isn't new, even considering how it binds the Cullens together (via Carlisle). I'm going to bring in some more fantasy here, courtesy of a role-playing game you may or may not have heard of: White Wolf's Vampire. In this game, vampires belong to a number of clans, each one claiming descent from a specific vampire. Each such vampire has certain abilities and limitations that are passed on to those they sire. So, for example, a vampire from the bloodline with abilities relating to shapeshifting will pass on the seed of those abilities to a human they turn.

Twilight vampires don't seem to have this link of passing on abilities, though they clearly seem to share the concept of "family" in addition to siring. Take a look at the covens- chances are, one of them was the "father" or "mother" of the rest. (Certainly true in the case of the Denali sisters, excluding Carmen and Eleazar, as they joined them later. I believe it is true in the case of Amun and the Egyptian coven.)

I don't think the "victim" would inherit all the vampire's DNA during the transformation. I mean, if that were the case, wouldn't the victim end up looking exactly like the vampire?
That's why I mentioned venom as the most easily accessible source of DNA study.

I see your point about the rest, but my curiosity comes from Bella's remark on page 560. That's one of the reasons why I brought this up. As far a physically looking like their sire, I wonder then that sense this is vampiric and not a human tie, then the resemblance would not translate in trasformation just the DNA that ties them together as a true family/coven.

Am I making sense? I hope so. :)
Paranormal/Romance/Adventure Addict

ringswraith
Running with Leah 'cause she thinks I'm hawt
Posts: 4633
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by ringswraith » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:53 am

I believe you're referring back to the quote you mentioned earlier, right? From "Defection" in Breaking Dawn?

Most (if not all) vampire lore indicate that there is some sort of relationship between sire and "child." In Bella's quote, I believe she was just rationalizing how Alice and Jasper are not as deeply connected to the rest of the Cullens as she was (or the rest, to each other). Of course, you could also be right, because it would give a reason for why the other covens have stuck together for so long.

You're right about the venom being the most readily-available source, especially if you consider what was said earlier about virii.

As for the DNA- maybe the vampire DNA only changes certain parts of the human DNA. /shrug

User avatar
navarre
Finding Stuff in Billy's Trunk
Posts: 3586
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Swimming in a sea of books, books and more books

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:57 am

ringswraith wrote:I believe you're referring back to the quote you mentioned earlier, right? From "Defection" in Breaking Dawn?

Most (if not all) vampire lore indicate that there is some sort of relationship between sire and "child." In Bella's quote, I believe she was just rationalizing how Alice and Jasper are not as deeply connected to the rest of the Cullens as she was (or the rest, to each other). Of course, you could also be right, because it would give a reason for why the other covens have stuck together for so long.

You're right about the venom being the most readily-available source, especially if you consider what was said earlier about virii.

As for the DNA- maybe the vampire DNA only changes certain parts of the human DNA. /shrug
Yes, I was referring to the quote from BD.
I agree with your last sentence - that makes sense to me. Thanks for weighing in. :)
Paranormal/Romance/Adventure Addict

User avatar
pharmer4
Banging Out Dents with Tyler
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:06 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by pharmer4 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:06 am

Navarre, firstly I would never ever mock someone's attempts to explain something...

The core of science is to postulate reasons why something happens - that is exactly what you are doing.

I think that the way the venom works would incorporate some new genes, and mutate others, perhaps leaving some unchanged, in the newborn vampire. This would mean that the extra DNA from the sire could probably be traced back to the original ancestor vampires.

This is similar to the DNA in people's mitochondria (the energy centres of the cell) - there are no mitochondria in sperm, so every single mitochondria in your body came directly from your mother, and her's from her mother, etc etc all that way back in time to your most ancient female ancestor.

I the same way, the extra vampire DNA that bella has, would be exactly the same as Edwards, Emetts, Rosalies, Esme's, and Carlisles, and by extension, Kyries' characters as well.


Also, I'm glad everyone who answered my question about the source of the knowledge of vampire DNA had logical explanations.

Also, since a vampire does not change once they are made, it would not matter if the venom altered all of the DNA, stripping out the human DNA and totally replacing it with vampire DNA.

Since there is no growth etc, there is no possibility for any genes (other than those for speed etc) would be expressed, so none of your looks etc would alter.

This would also mean that genetically speaking, all vampires would be clones of their sire.

I prefer the viral mutation theory thoe, where some is introduced new, some is changed by the in-coming DNA, and some is left unchanged.
Image
30 year old tattooed metal-loving male Twilight Fan. Breaking the Stereotype.

If you don't understand the science of Twilight, or just like to scoff at it, read my explanations here

User avatar
navarre
Finding Stuff in Billy's Trunk
Posts: 3586
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Swimming in a sea of books, books and more books

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:29 am

Thank you, pharmer4. And thank you for keeping everything in Layman's terms. Your response made perfect sense to me.

Your viral mutation theory bears more weight for me.
This was a fun theory to review and discuss.

Thanks again. :)

navarre
Paranormal/Romance/Adventure Addict

ringswraith
Running with Leah 'cause she thinks I'm hawt
Posts: 4633
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by ringswraith » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:26 am

pharmer4- Good point about the "no change due to no growth" topic. That makes sense.

User avatar
pharmer4
Banging Out Dents with Tyler
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:06 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by pharmer4 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:02 am

navarre wrote:Thank you, pharmer4. And thank you for keeping everything in Layman's terms. Your response made perfect sense to me.

Your viral mutation theory bears more weight for me.
This was a fun theory to review and discuss.

Thanks again. :)

navarre

No need to thanks me Navarre, I enjoy discussing it.

And i think the way i explain things in layman's terms is a product of my job. You could distill all the things I do on a day to day basis down to "explaining scientific and medical information in a way that a patient can understand, so that they utilise their medication to the best possible effect"
Image
30 year old tattooed metal-loving male Twilight Fan. Breaking the Stereotype.

If you don't understand the science of Twilight, or just like to scoff at it, read my explanations here

User avatar
Alice_in_Cullenland
Wandering Through Town
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Alice_in_Cullenland » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:28 pm

Let me start by saying that I absolutely LOVE that this thread exists. I'm the type of person that spends hours upon hours thinking about how things work and how things are possible when I'm trying to get to sleep at night. I had some ideas about Nessie, but after reading through all the previous posts I can see that she's been discussed, and everything I could've said has been said.

I know we're discussing bloodlines right now...but I want to introduce a point about werewolves I thought of. Werewolves/shapeshifters in the Twi-verse are supposed to be magical, right? So why is it that the ability to shapeshift is caused by an extra pair of chromosones? That would work if they were more scientific than magical, but since they are more magical it seems like it'd make more sense if their phasing abilities came from some sort of spiritual connection that they get from being Quiletes. Granted, my idea for an explanation just sounded very feeble, but I'm not good at figuring magical/fantastic explanations.

The problem with the 24 chromosones theory is that procreation could be a big problem. One person in this forum suggested that everyone in the Quilete tribe has 24 chromosone pairs, and I agree with this idea. I had thought of this explanation even before viewing this forum, so it's kind of awesome that I was thinking the same thing as someone else here. As long as a werewolf/shapeshifter has a child with a Quilete woman (or man) or the occassional vampire/human hybrid, their offspring will have 24 chromosone pairs and thus will be fine genetically. But what happens if a werewolf/shapeshifter has a child with a normal 23 chromosoned-paired human? Like, what if Jacob had a child with Bella? Their child would have 23 and a half chromosones, which, if any of you remember the genetic portion of biology, know is a very bad thing. A well known example of a genetic disorder caused by an uneven number of chromosones is Down Syndrome. So yeah, best case scenario is that the kids won't be werewolves, worst case scenario is that the offspring is severly defective.

Going with this explanation, what if werewolves just don't have children with any ordinary humans? That'd work great...if the Quilete tribe weren't Native American. No, I'm not implying something racist, I'm trying to say that because we Europeans were a bunch of (Insert appropriate naughty phrase here) when we came to the New World, the Native American population of American has been dwindling and is continuing to dwindle. Granted, the population is dwindling now because of people leaving reservations as opposed to the population being forced into specific areas, but still, dwindling population. So if the werewolves/shapeshifters continue having children with an already dwindling population, their choices will continue to get smaller, and...eventually after generations upon generations...they'll probably start inbreeding. Yeah, I know you didn't want that mental image. My apologies. (The last comment was not me being sarcastic. I really do apologize for the potential mental scarring.)
Image

User avatar
navarre
Finding Stuff in Billy's Trunk
Posts: 3586
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Swimming in a sea of books, books and more books

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by navarre » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:31 pm

Pharmer4 & Ringswraith are the brains behind that sort of discussion, Alice_in_Cullenland. Maybe they can help and have ideas. Gentlemen?
Paranormal/Romance/Adventure Addict

ringswraith
Running with Leah 'cause she thinks I'm hawt
Posts: 4633
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:46 pm

Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by ringswraith » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:24 am

Alice_in_Cullenland: There is logic behind your question, and it's certainly a troublesome proposition, isn't it?

One thing, though- Embry's mom wasn't Quileute. She was Makah. They have no direct ties to the spirit warrior ancestors that the Quileute tribe do (based on the stories told by Billy Black and Old Quil Ateara), so only his father had the 24 chromosomes that the shapeshifters are supposed to have. So, apparently, it is possible for them to have a normal (well, besides the obvious) child with a non-Quileute.

And I don't believe that the Makahs will have 24 chromosomes "just because." Why would they need the extra one?

I propose another hypothesis: The 24th chromosome only expresses itself when the circumstances dictate that this person must become a werewolf. Recall that all the werewolves go through a growth spurt when the gene is triggered- this could be the chromosome starting to express itself, enacting changes in the individual's body. Prior to that, it could just be extra genetic code that does, well, nothing- nothing in the event that they aren't required. Sort of like the appendix in the human digestive tract- it's just there, serving no real function.

Post Reply