The Science of Twilight

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Knives
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Knives » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:48 pm

swedishskinjer wrote:Knives:

Vampires don't rule the world because they find it easier to keep their existence a secret. As Aro said in Breaking Dawn, humans may one day have the technology to pose a threat to vampires. Furthermore, vampires tend to be nomadic, and the covens that exist mainly keep to themselves. Ruling the world is not an interest to them.
Easier in what way? Even in the modern day, a vampire can slaughter countless humans until someone decides it's time to nuke him. Before the invention of the atomic bomb, there was no feasible way to kill a vampire in one-on-one combat (except, perhaps, the flamethrower - a weapon of limited use and value). Believe me, I've done the math and the projections: vampires in numbers could (and would) have corralled the humans into "farms" and lived in relative comfort and luxury, supported by their own sadism. The fact that they did not is a rather large hole in Ms. Meyer's story.
Dismembering another vampire *by* a vampire is quite possible. It's like a human dismembering another human. For another vampire, the skin a fellow vampire is easy to damage due to their equal amounts of strength. According to Stephenie, isn't the venom of a vampire highly flammable?
Have you ever seen a human dismember one of his/her fellows with his/her bare hands? It can't be done. It's not a matter of strength, it's a matter of materials; it doesn't matter how hard you swing a sword if it shatters on impact. If their skin is (allow me to quote), "Like diamond, but harder", no known material can pierce it - for that matter, they can't move. Ignoring the immobility factor for a moment, however, that means that the only way for fire to find purchase in them is through unprotected portions of their body, such as the eyes, mouth, and nose. A vampire wearing a gas mask is thus effectively invulnerable.

Aside from that, the big reason vampires went into hiding was supposedly the Inquisition. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that a bunch of fanatical, but ultimately human, priests armed with swords, maces, bad information and torches aren't capable of catching a vampire, let alone killing one. Ms. Meyer's vampires don't sleep, don't get tired, and are many, many times faster and stronger than the average human - the only scenario I can concieve of that involves a Dark Ages human killing one is that said vampire could not stop laughing at the hilarity of his situation.

Attempting to bring science into the picture shot holes all through Ms. Meyer's story, which had quite a few of them to begin with. I can safely say that Ms. Meyer did not do her scientific or mythological research before writing this series, and that none of her supernatural beings, as presented, are capable of functioning in the currently known laws of physics - which means that all of their capabilities are magical.

Eagerly awaiting a counterargument!

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by dandyvampgirl_13 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:13 pm

Knives wrote:vampires in numbers could (and would) have corralled the humans into "farms" and lived in relative comfort and luxury, supported by their own sadism. The fact that they did not is a rather large hole in Ms. Meyer's story.
I don't want to blow your whole argument, because I see your points. However, as for humans being coralled- We have a tendency to rebel. I don't think the vampires, even with their almighty sparkliness, could keep all the humans cowed (literally and figuratively). I use fictional stories as my support, but they are based on true human emotion- The Matrix, The Host, every tyrant in existence, Mistborn, The Hunger Games, basically any population that has been forced into submission. They will eventually have a member of society that yearns for freedom, and spark rebellion. Some will escape and hide in the deep recesses of the world. Humanity would survive. I'm not sure its possible to kill off the human race.
Also, if there were so many vampires, there would be too few humans to sustain their population. It is much better to exist with a small population so that food will always be more than plentiful, and unsuspecting, in their case.

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Openhome » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:40 pm

Knives wrote:Attempting to bring science into the picture shot holes all through Ms. Meyer's story, which had quite a few of them to begin with. I can safely say that Ms. Meyer did not do her scientific or mythological research before writing this series, and that none of her supernatural beings, as presented, are capable of functioning in the currently known laws of physics - which means that all of their capabilities are magical.
Yeah. But they sure are cute in the movies! :lol: :lol:

Jokes aside, the series brought about a MORE quasi scientific reason for the existence of an alternate humanoid species, but it was not any more scientific than any of the cheesy paranormal hunting shows on cable. The DNA statement in BD ruined it for me because what kind of enzyme can separate crystal?

The argument about killing off the human race has a two sided issue. Could we be killed off, probably with a concerted effort, but no vampire wants to shut down the diner. That was the strongest argument for the Volturi in the book, they kept the peace and kept the herd happily oblivious. As you said, a small group of predators has a much bigger herd to hunt.

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by TwilightRose1 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:36 pm

They brought the science of harry potter as well and i thought it made more life-like. I suppose it removes a little bit of the magic, but it IS just a story you know ? ;) ( Don't get me wrong I'd be the first person ot believe if someone told me vampire and stuff was real ahaha)
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Knives » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:44 pm

dandyvampgirl_13 wrote:
Knives wrote:vampires in numbers could (and would) have corralled the humans into "farms" and lived in relative comfort and luxury, supported by their own sadism. The fact that they did not is a rather large hole in Ms. Meyer's story.
I don't want to blow your whole argument, because I see your points. However, as for humans being coralled- We have a tendency to rebel. I don't think the vampires, even with their almighty sparkliness, could keep all the humans cowed (literally and figuratively). I use fictional stories as my support, but they are based on true human emotion- The Matrix, The Host, every tyrant in existence, Mistborn, The Hunger Games, basically any population that has been forced into submission. They will eventually have a member of society that yearns for freedom, and spark rebellion. Some will escape and hide in the deep recesses of the world. Humanity would survive. I'm not sure its possible to kill off the human race.
Also, if there were so many vampires, there would be too few humans to sustain their population. It is much better to exist with a small population so that food will always be more than plentiful, and unsuspecting, in their case.
It's a nice argument, but those precedents all involve a society that is capable of, at the very least, injuring their captors. The vampires' goal would not be extinction; it would, basically, be to "farm" humans for consumption. Keep in mind that the modern day has precisely three weapons capable of harming an (unprepared) vampire - the atom bomb, the flamethrower, and napalm. Striking before the invention of any of these means that humanity is literally incapable of striking back. The spirit of rebellion may be there, yes, but the reality would not be - and in such a scenario, technological advancement on the part of humans would be highly unlikely. Not only would there be great difficulty in hiding anything from their captors (superior senses, confirmed cases of prophets/telepaths, et cetera), but vampires have, literally, forever with which to hone their minds and the ability to pick the best and brightest of the herd to change in to members of their own kind. Done with care, patience, and intelligence - three resources any half-decent immortal being should have in spades - the subjugation of humanity by Ms. Meyer's vampires is, frankly, rediculously easy.

Incidentally, the science in Twilight is significantly worse than those cheesy paranormal hunter shows on cable. However, I would like to point out that those "paranormal hunting shows" usually only incoporate science in the, "How can we exploit this thing's weaknesses and kill it?" sense. Keep in mind that the paranormal is not necessarily incoprehensible to science; science is, after all, merely a model for the facts someone observes. A lot of people confuse "science" with "paradigm" - a belief system - and that's the source of a lot of arguments. It's certainly possible to scientifically examine the paranormal and even to come up with theories and explanations - you just need to do it in an intelligent manner that does not get your series laughed at by anyone who's taken high school biology :D
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by ringswraith » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:00 pm

Mmm, until all the "food" decides that it's better to be dead by their own hands than raised as cattle- one way or another, they're dead anyway.

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Openhome » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:22 pm

Knives wrote:Incidentally, the science in Twilight is significantly worse than those cheesy paranormal hunter shows on cable. However, I would like to point out that those "paranormal hunting shows" usually only incoporate science in the, "How can we exploit this thing's weaknesses and kill it?" sense. Keep in mind that the paranormal is not necessarily incoprehensible to science; science is, after all, merely a model for the facts someone observes. A lot of people confuse "science" with "paradigm" - a belief system - and that's the source of a lot of arguments. It's certainly possible to scientifically examine the paranormal and even to come up with theories and explanations - you just need to do it in an intelligent manner that does not get your series laughed at by anyone who's taken high school biology :D
Sorry, I have to disagree. I have seen some really well done "paranormal mystery shows," but more often, the ones on Sci Fi are not much more that camera effects and scared people who shouldn't be in the dark in the first place.
Sorry, it just kills me that they speak English to ghosts in Romania. Do dead people automatically start speaking new languages? What is this, Star Trek? ;)

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by dandyvampgirl_13 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:09 pm

Trekkers speak Romulan or Klingon, not Romanian, I believe. :D
And I won't comment on the Ghost Hunters thing, because I rather like that show, mostly to laugh at. And Barry has a cute accent.

I'll use The Matrix for my examples- The robot things would kil any human found outside of their uterus-farm things, right? The vampires, unless they had a free-range hunting preserve thing, wouldn't want any human outside of their control, because its blood they can't easily get. They wouldn't anihilate us, because they need us, but under them we would be little more than animals. Human nature would fight back, not allow that to happen. Humans wouldn't win, outright, but neither would vampires. What David says has alot of credit- the brave ones would die, the weak would get eat too fast, and then we'd be gone, and vampires would be screwed.

You know, this entire argument is the basis for this new vampire-horror movie coming out called Daybreakers. Is that why you first brought up this question, Knives?

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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by Knives » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Y'know, I was actually referring to shows like Supernatural, not Ghost Huntesr. Go go mutual confusion?

Again, the Matrix has a group of "overbeings" (the machines) which can be destroyed by commonly available human technology; vampires cannot be. They require nothing but blood, which they may get from animals if necessary, and have literally forever to hound down their prey. A few of the exceptionally brave may kill themselves, but a species as a whole cannot decide to up and die; it is not only possible that the vampires would hunt down the stragglers, but very likely - what need do they have of sleep? What methods can the humans use to counter their superior senses? The humans could fight back, struggle, but given the various demonstrations through the series and movie(s) of vampiric strength and speed, do you think any human could hope for more than an honorable suicide - if s/he's fast enough to pull even that off - in the face of a vampire hoping to capture him/her alive? Population control - on both sides - is simply a matter of letting the smart vampires rise to the top, and you end up with a dominance society, with vampires at the top and humans being ground into the dirt.

As for your movie question - no, never heard of it. I've been thinking about this ever since I learned of the Voultirii and first asked, "How the hell did a human in the Dark Ages manage to kill a vampire?"
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Re: The Science of Twilight

Post by dandyvampgirl_13 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:42 pm

Ah. Never watched Supernatural- all the other ghost shows (Stupid "Othersiders" crap people) suck. I just watch GH because its ridiculous, and mildly scientific at the same time.

I don't think humans ever actually killed a vampire- they just pretended they were dead, much like the witches and wizards in Harry Potter, who put a Flame Freezing spell on the fires attempting to burn them and instead enjoyed a pleasant tickling sensation whilst pretending to shriek in pain. :D
Its like St. Marcus Day: a way to keep humans blind, letting them think vampires aren't invincible so they can't recognize the real thing. (Course, after reading Dracula, there are a lot of shocking similarities between the Count and Robert Pattinson. Makes me suspicious.)

The only thing I can think of that would prevent the vampires from uniting and controlling the humans would be other vampires. There would always be some powerhungry faction that wants control of all the blood and would attempt to dethrone whatever government was currently in place and handling food supply. In desparate straits, they might even destroy all the humans before they get killed by the Volturi (I can see them almost always coming out on top), which is stupid, but people in general (including vampires) are stupid.

And fear of a vampire takeover is why we have zombies and werewolves...

Daybreakers plot: In the year 2019, a plague has transformed most every human into vampires. Faced with a dwindling blood supply (only enough to feed the vampire population for 1 month), the fractured dominant race plots their survival (hunting down the surviving human rebellion and eating them so there's no more humans); meanwhile, a researcher works with a covert band of vamps on a way to save humankind.
Funny thing- all those vampires have golden eyes too! Regardless of what they eat.

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