Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:15 pm

corona wrote:Maybe you should ban Jazz Girl from these threads for a week too. She was last seen swinging a crowbar around, and I fear for everyone's safety.


:lol: Hey!!! That crowbar was meant for one very specific person and it's been previously identified as the only useful tool to tune his attitude. Give a girl a break! I had to try something.

Openhome wrote:Nessie is for Edward.

I’m sorry you didn’t get the bite and all the romance that entails, but the bite meant a lifetime of guilt and doubt for Edward. Now, Edward is free and “redeemed” and no longer fears that he killed a soul to have a sexual partner. Nessie is not only the means, but the proof.

As we have said, Stephenie needed to give Bella her reward but have her do it without “sin.” Voila, death by baby. She makes Bella’s choice not about love but about saving another, and in doing so SHE OFFERS EDWARD REDEMPTION AS WELL. Edward didn’t kill Bella, he saved her and the innocent life of his child through his immeasurable anguish and sacrifice. No foul, no sin.

Nessie is proof that Edward is now redeemed, that vampires are not dead and damned, and that life eternal is now possible in more than one way. She is the gift that all children are intended to be--our heritage, our mark, and our way to continue to live after we die. Nessie can have children and Bella and Edward will live again through them as well. The story is complete for Bella and Edward, not just because they are in love, but because they are in love and redeemed.


Let it be understood that I've only ever thought that Ms. Ness was truly a gift to Edward, a reward of sorts for all of the pain, the angst, the emotional torment that The Saga as a whole brought him. One has to admit, loving Bella, particularly as a human, was just a painful experience at times. And not just because of his own self-loathing. So, yes, in the end, after everything he endures to he with his love, he gets the added reward of a beautiful daughter who represents all those things; redemption, the continuation of their love beyond them, and the realization that there love created something so powerfully beautiful.

Buuuuttttt.... (oh come on, you knew it was coming)

There are two flaws that I see with that logic. First, Edward's perfect reward is almost immediately borrowed (I would say stolen, but at least he still gets to have her with him for a few years) by the one person who has contributed more to his torment than anyone except Edward himself. So, while I completely agree with you that Ness is a gift to Edward, I can't see her in that completely beatific light.

Secondly, and most importantly, my immediate reaction is, "why can't we have both?" If Ness is truly that redemption for Edward, the source of his epiphany that he is not a monster, that he deserves love, that he is worthy of loving and being loved, why, in an epic romance, do we have to sacrifice that for the perfect resolution to the romance that would be Bella and Edward both equally choosing each other and their love over every other consideration? Why can't we have both? Even if SM was completely married to having Ness as Edward's redemption, why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? There are plenty of ways that it could be done. And, quite frankly, that might lessen just slightly the sting of Edward's perfect gift being immediatly coopted.
Last edited by Jazz Girl on Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:54 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Secondly, and most importantly, my immediate reaction is, "why can't we have both?" If Ness is truly that redemption for Edward, the source of his epiphany that he is not a monster, that he deserves love, that he is worthy of loving and being loved, why, in an epic romance, do we have to sacrifice that for the perfect resolution to the romance that would be Bella and Edward both equally choosing each other and their love over every other consideration? Why can't we have both? Even if SM was completely married to having Ness as Edward's redemption, why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? There are plenty of ways that it could be done. And, quite frankly, that might lessen just slightly the sting of Edward's perfect gift being immediatly coopted.


Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you are saying that why couldn't Bella just have become a vampire and Edward accepted that as the ultimate measure of love, along with Renesmee? I think we did get that, in a way, because prior to the events of BD, that's where it was headed. Bella was going to become a vampire, and Edward had accepted it, and was going to change her.

I think that, although Renesmee may have sealed his belief that he was worthy of Bella's love, had a soul, and could be redeemed, I think she was only the seal on what was already taking place. I think he had started to feel this ever since the end of New Moon, when he first saw that Bella's life was better with him in it than without him. Eclipse, and her decision to accept him over Jacob, reinforced this belief. While I think the pregnancy probably threw him a little (or a lot!) then the revelation of what Renesmee really was - a creature of love that he produced in a loving relationship with Bella - was the final thing that made him realise that this was all special, and meant to be, and made him realise that he was not the monster he thought he was. It was the final nail in that coffin, and gave him a gift he will always have, in spite of imprints or anything else. Renesmee will always be his daughter, and will always love him, just as Bella will. Maybe Jacob will even come to love him as a father (or at least a brother) one day, perhaps very soon. Because he is worthy of that love.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting!
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:23 am

December wrote:And I don't know what makes you suppose I'm coming around to Kayla's way of thinking....


December, I'm just having some fun at your expense, and weren't you supposed to be offline for a week? So you caught me and spoiled everything, don't you feel bad?

I am having another brainstorming and will have to post later. I'm running now with the idea that Nessie is not only for Edward, but that Stephenie had to give her to him.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:17 pm

Tornado wrote:Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you are saying that why couldn't Bella just have become a vampire and Edward accepted that as the ultimate measure of love, along with Renesmee? I think we did get that, in a way, because prior to the events of BD, that's where it was headed. Bella was going to become a vampire, and Edward had accepted it, and was going to change her.

I think that, although Renesmee may have sealed his belief that he was worthy of Bella's love, had a soul, and could be redeemed, I think she was only the seal on what was already taking place. I think he had started to feel this ever since the end of New Moon, when he first saw that Bella's life was better with him in it than without him. Eclipse, and her decision to accept him over Jacob, reinforced this belief. While I think the pregnancy probably threw him a little (or a lot!) then the revelation of what Renesmee really was - a creature of love that he produced in a loving relationship with Bella - was the final thing that made him realise that this was all special, and meant to be, and made him realise that he was not the monster he thought he was. It was the final nail in that coffin, and gave him a gift he will always have, in spite of imprints or anything else. Renesmee will always be his daughter, and will always love him, just as Bella will. Maybe Jacob will even come to love him as a father (or at least a brother) one day, perhaps very soon. Because he is worthy of that love.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting!


Working from Openhome's supposition that Edward, even while viewing Bella's sacrifice for the ultimate act of love, would still hate himself and consider himself a selfish monster for turning her(thus putting a dent in the perfect love story) unless we have to have Ness and the emergency vampirization to completely resolve the love story, we cannot have both. It depends on whether or not you believe Edward did, in fact, have that epiphany. I'm not entirely sure he did. I would love to believe that. I truly would. But, the way I read Edward's words and actions regarding Bella's change before they find out about Ness, his feelings about and reactions to Bella's understanding that she will die to bring Ness into the world and that the vampirization is her plan to survive that process... no, I don't think he does. So, what we get is, as Openhome points out, Edward merely accepting Bella's sacrifice and finding the remainder of the redemption he needs through the birth of his daughter. What December and I (and so very many others) would rather see is Edward & Bella both accepting that they are making a very difficult choice but actively choosing each other and the love that they share willingly and freely over all other concerns. So, if Ness has to make an appearance, at the very least, she does so after that resolution happens.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:43 pm

I think that the end of Eclipse, where Edward gives in and says that Bella can have whatever she wants, is an indication that he has come around to that way of thinking. He's lost faith in his point of view, and I think it suggests that he's come to the conclusion that his attitude is wrong. Now, while I think the pregnancy puts him back a bit, I think there is reason to believe that his mind is changed prior to BD, or at least has gone a fair distance towards changing. It's difficult to tell from the outside, though. Oh, how I would love ALL the books from Edward's perspective!
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Re: Explorations

Postby Openhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:48 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:There are two flaws that I see with that logic. First, Edward's perfect reward is almost immediately borrowed (I would say stolen, but at least he still gets to have her with him for a few years) by the one person who has contributed more to his torment than anyone except Edward himself. So, while I completely agree with you that Ness is a gift to Edward, I can't see her in that completely beatific light.

Secondly, and most importantly, my immediate reaction is, "why can't we have both?" If Ness is truly that redemption for Edward, the source of his epiphany that he is not a monster, that he deserves love, that he is worthy of loving and being loved, why, in an epic romance, do we have to sacrifice that for the perfect resolution to the romance that would be Bella and Edward both equally choosing each other and their love over every other consideration? Why can't we have both? Even if SM was completely married to having Ness as Edward's redemption, why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? There are plenty of ways that it could be done. And, quite frankly, that might lessen just slightly the sting of Edward's perfect gift being immediatly coopted.[/color]


Actually, the first part of the quote is something I brought up on Ambivilances (I have a hard time not mixing the two arguments because they overlap so much!) Nessie isn't a perfect solution. The very fact that Stephenie was forced into creating some wobbly mythology and forcing the issue of her impossible existence, shows that. Also, it irks me no end that Stephenie had Jacob even there at her birth. Originally, Nessie was much older when Jacob saw her (in FD) and I am FAR more comfortable with that end than with imprinting the moment she is out of her father's arms. Personally, I think it was Stephenie's soft heart that had her write that scene. It wasn't necessary. In fact, the whole Volturi thing could have (and IMO should have) been put off until she was much older.

Can you imagine how different the story would have been if we'd been able to SEE Edward be the father more than in a few paragraphs? I wanted to have a scenes with the family, not be told in narration that they were happy.

What I am saying is that the fact that Stephenie took Nessie away from her parents early was a mistake and bad writing. It wasn't necessary except to push Jacob's HEA on him. BUT it doesn't negate the fact that Stephenie intended the gift for Edward to prove at last that he was worthy.

"why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? "
Ah, here I think we come to personal tastes. You see, for me, Bella did choose him, and he chose her, just not at the moment of the bite. I will never convince December (God knows that!), you, or many others that the romantic bite didn't need to be the resolution. You needed it, but I didn't. I didn't care if forever came in that all encompassing love scene that culminated in a bite, because I saw them choose each other over and over again in the story. They chose each other repeatedly. He chose her in the meadow. She chose him when she got on the plane to Volterra. He chose her when he asked her to marry him -- many times. He chose her when he was willing to let to go to Jacob in Eclipse. She chose him when she didn't....
Personal tastes -- I didn't need the bite. For me, it would have been anticlimactic. I saw the choice all the way through.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:38 pm

Tornado wrote:I think that the end of Eclipse, where Edward gives in and says that Bella can have whatever she wants, is an indication that he has come around to that way of thinking. He's lost faith in his point of view, and I think it suggests that he's come to the conclusion that his attitude is wrong. Now, while I think the pregnancy puts him back a bit, I think there is reason to believe that his mind is changed prior to BD, or at least has gone a fair distance towards changing. It's difficult to tell from the outside, though. Oh, how I would love ALL the books from Edward's perspective!


I'll take three of the four, please. I honestly believe that reading NM in Edward's head would put me over the edge. I cannot abide his pain. But, to the point, oh how I want to agree. I truly do. The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Edward was still bargaining with her for more time. There is a difference between accepting the inevitability of her change and actively seeking it. So, while, yes, he may have started to accept that it was going to happen, he was not ever given the opportunity to get to the point where he wanted it and acted on it. That is where they are denied that perfect resolution.

Openhome wrote:"why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? "
Ah, here I think we come to personal tastes. You see, for me, Bella did choose him, and he chose her, just not at the moment of the bite. I will never convince December (God knows that!), you, or many others that the romantic bite didn't need to be the resolution. You needed it, but I didn't. I didn't care if forever came in that all encompassing love scene that culminated in a bite, because I saw them choose each other over and over again in the story. They chose each other repeatedly. He chose her in the meadow. She chose him when she got on the plane to Volterra. He chose her when he asked her to marry him -- many times. He chose her when he was willing to let to go to Jacob in Eclipse. She chose him when she didn't....
Personal tastes -- I didn't need the bite. For me, it would have been anticlimactic. I saw the choice all the way through.


Yes, they do choose each other over and over. And it's beautiful over and over. But, in the end, they are denied that final choice, the one that says "I love you and want you and need you enough to put EVERYTHING else aside and accept that, if I want to keep you with me, I have to do something to make that happen." For us (or at least some of us) it's taking the step to marry the person we love. That is our version of forever. But, because I know that forever has a different context in their world, I need to see them choose that permanance with their whole hearts, rather than have it thrust upon them.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:11 pm

Openhome wrote:Originally, Nessie was much older when Jacob saw her (in FD) and I am FAR more comfortable with that end than with imprinting the moment she is out of her father's arms.


On SM's website it says he imprinted on a visit to Charlie's when she was about three weeks old, so I don't think it was that much older, although I guess it would have made Renesmee about two or so years???
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:14 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Edward was still bargaining with her for more time.


At the end of NM, yes, he is like that, but at the end of Eclipse, when they are in the meadow, he says that they'll go and talk to Carlisle and change her that very day. So he seems to have given up the idea that delay is even desirable.

Whoops! Sorry, double post! I'm getting confused as to where I've posted and where I haven't ...
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Re: Explorations

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:18 pm

Tornado wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Edward was still bargaining with her for more time.


At the end of NM, yes, he is like that, but at the end of Eclipse, when they are in the meadow, he says that they'll go and talk to Carlisle and change her that very day. So he seems to have given up the idea that delay is even desirable.

Whoops! Sorry, double post! I'm getting confused as to where I've posted and where I haven't ...


I think, rather like the discussion of Edward's fighting abilities, it comes down to interpretations. True, Edward seems willing enough at the end of Eclipse. But, at the beginning of BD, we also see him terrified about hurting her in the course of making love to her, even knowing that his absolute reaction would be to turn her if she was hurt. And, he's more than willing to accept her discussion of giving her more time when she talks about going to Dartmouth. He never says, "Bella, if a delay is what you want, than of course you can have it. But, I want you turned. I need you changed." So, again, he's accepted that she is willing to change for him. But, he is not taking his own steps to make it happen. Maybe it's picky, or whatever. But, that is the way that I need to see them both come to resolution to feel like they completely honor each other's sacrifice.
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