Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:35 pm

corona wrote:I think a lot depends, though, on whether or not you actually believe there will be more stories in the TW world. If you do, then it becomes much easier to imagine there might be consequences for certain actions or opportunities for growth. Personally, I got the feeling that SM was trying to wrap up everything that she could, so I got the impression of finality, which freezes everyone in time, not just the vamps. I think the thing that tipped me over to that conclusion was how strong she portrayed Nessie's connection to Jacob, even over her own father. That is basically giving away the end to their story. Why do that unless you're not sure you will ever be writing their story?

You see a big part of my problem? I can't picture those additional stories, so Jacob always remains the same to me. It isn't that I don't have an imagination, it's because I am interpreting BD as the final word in the TW universe. I hope I am wrong. Funny, though, isn't it? Out of all of the characters in the book, Jacob is the prime candidate for growth, but I can't picture it. There is some stubbornness on my part, but I'm just not willing anymore to put any effort into understanding him.
My problem is similar. While I can imagine a lot of these scenes, the fact is, I can't consider them canon because I am not SM. This makes my understanding of her world incomplete. This is one of the things that frustrates me when it comes to fanfiction. I can't give it validation because SM hasn't sanctioned it, so how can I be sure that it is an accurate depiction of her world? This is compounded by the fact that, when I do read it, usually the characters start behaving in a way that I believe is inconsistent with their characters, so then I am forced to ask, "Has the writer misunderstood these characters or have I?"
corona wrote:I think you are right, there is not much point to writing their story unless there is romantic conflict. The only way for Nahuel to enter the picture, though, is if Nessie has some kind of meltdown with Jacob. Perhaps these kinds of revelations combined with a feeling of entrapment would do. Maybe her book cover would have a picture of breaking chains, a rebellion against the choices that have seemingly been taken from her?
That's a very good idea, and possibly the very point from which a problem could stem. It would be difficult for Nessie to deal with that, especially the realisation that, if not for supernatural magic, the man who is professing undying devotion to her would have murdered her mercilessly. It would tend to screw you up, I think. There are probably a few fathers out there who wanted their babies aborted and then loved them when they were born, so Edward's situation is not unique, but Jacob's is, and that could cause a lot of trouble.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:16 pm

Hello Everyone: :wave:

I am new to twilightlexicon.com and a new twilight fan. I became a fan around December 2010. After loving the movies so much. What took me so long? I thought it was another vampire love story. :banghead: I pay that much attention to the books or movies. I am sooooooo glad I was wrong. And I am so glad a friend of mine convinced me to read the books. Now I am a big fan. I think I have read each book like 11 times. I can't even count how many times I have seen the movies.

I have been reading some of the threads for months now and I have been putting off joining and now I can't wait any longer.

So I guess I will start here. Sorry if I don't get the quote posting feature right.
Tornado wrote:

The only way I understand that is through the believe that, contrary to what he thinks, Jake is really the one who is a drug for her. He was the medicine she became addicted to when recovering from the injury caused by Edward's absence, and she couldn't give it up.
:o :D This was soooo enlightening. It would have never crossed my mind to think this. This theory fits like a glove. Thank you.

I always went along with the reasons the characters were saying:
-Edward accepted Bella & Jacobs' relationship/behavior because of the guilt he felt for leaving and causing Bella pain and putting her in danger. So that made sense to me.

-So I just accepted Bella's reasons for keeping Jacob around "Jacob is family" and she felt bad for dumping him after he was good to her in her darkest days. I felt she saw and treated him as more than family in New Moon like a potential boyfriend. But, I thought she kept him around in hopes that Jacob would eventually accept Edward & Bella's relationship and be happy for them. I figured that was not going to happen. Ex's are never pleased to be replaced.

Also, I attributed Edward, Bella & Jacob's their behaviors as typical teenage drama.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:23 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
So, in a way, Bella was always waiting for the thing that would finally push Edward to run again, to leave her broken and bleeding again. So she held on to the one thing she knew would at least dull the pain when he did. She couldn't set boundaries with Jacob because she was too afraid that those boundaries would push him away and he wouldn't be there to put her back together when Edward left again, the way she was terrified he would. So, in stead of flushing her pain meds down the toilet as soon as she didn't need them anymore, Bella kept the bottle in the back of the medicine cabinet, just waiting for the day when she would need them again.
:D Your whole post was brilliantly elaborated. The above is my favorite part. :clap:

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:14 am

I started thinking that Jacob was the drug for Bella while first reading Eclipse. The way she couldn't stay away from him, but only when Edward wasn't there, suggested it. It was like she was used to him numbing the pain of Edward's absence. The more I read, the more it seemed to ring true, even when she kissed him. She couldn't bear to have her line to the drug cut. Now, this doesn't mean that I think she didn't really love Jacob: she did. But it was always, to me, the less healthy love. It was always a relationship that came about because of Bella's desire for someone else, and that's never healthy. Edward was her life and breath, which is why she died inside when he went away. Jacob was the iron lung she had to use to keep breathing.

With this in mind, I was enraged when Jacob told Bella that Edward was the drug. It seemed so typical of him to see himself as the perfect answer to everything, and everyone else as in the wrong. I never thought that their relationship would be as easy as he thought. They are too different for that. It would be hard work, although not impossible, to have made a relationship between the two of them last long term.
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Jazz Girl
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:59 pm

Tornado wrote:
With this in mind, I was enraged when Jacob told Bella that Edward was the drug. It seemed so typical of him to see himself as the perfect answer to everything, and everyone else as in the wrong. I never thought that their relationship would be as easy as he thought. They are too different for that. It would be hard work, although not impossible, to have made a relationship between the two of them last long term.
Ironically, this was the one time that I was able tgo look at Jacob's youth as at least a mitigating factor. HeKs a teenager and teenagers are amazingly narrow minded. We all were. Most of us, for a period of time could not see anything beyond how it effected us. Jacob has a lot of things that should have pushed him to open up his view of the world, and of his place in it. That he would see everything backwards in relation to his relationship with Bella didnt surprise me. It was just typical Jacob at that point. I think maybe that is a major reason why I am so disappointed in Jacob. He doesn't live up to the hype, so to speak. He's supposed to be this great friend and great leader and upstanding guy and he just fails at every turn. It's then, by succession, why I also spend so much time confused by Bella in her devotion to him. He does nothing but fail her time and again and yet she just keeps letting it go.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:09 pm

Yes, it doesn't help either that Bella, who is only a year or so older than Jacob, is remarkably selfless and can see beyond herself, as can Edward, who, although 100+ years old, still has a lot of the attributes of a 17 year old himself. It makes me expect more of another character of the same age, as he's surrounded by similar characters who manage to do what he seems incapable of doing. This is probably unfair, but it is difficult to get out of this mindset.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:40 pm

I think the irony for me is that I am most disappointed in Bella. In so many instances, she is so amazingly selfless, particularly for a girl of 17/18. She sees so many things so clearly, gives of herself so freely. And, yet, when it comes down to the one thing she should see most clearly and be most selfless about, which is how her behavior is effecting the man she claims to love beyond all reason, she fails at that so miserably. Bella is such a source of hurt for Edward for so much of the second half of The Saga that there are times I literally want to shake Edward and ask him what he's thinking allowing it to happen. But, as the saying goes, love makes us do the crazy. It explains so much of Bella's early behavior, and almost all of Edward's in the second half.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:53 pm

Yes, I guess I can cope with Jake's bad behaviour in BD because it was expected by then, but we're so used to Bella seeing things clearly that stuffing up so much with Edward and Jake seems incomprehensible. But we all make mistakes, and major ones, too.
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:25 am

Tornado wrote:Jacob was the iron lung she had to use to keep breathing.
That is more in line with how I see it as far as the "drug" references. Jacob was more like medical care for Bella when Edward was gone. After his return, he is like a numbing drug for her, like a Valium, when Edward has to be away for awhile.
JazzGirl wrote:That he would see everything backwards in relation to his relationship with Bella didnt surprise me. It was just typical Jacob at that point. I think maybe that is a major reason why I am so disappointed in Jacob. He doesn't live up to the hype, so to speak. He's supposed to be this great friend and great leader and upstanding guy and he just fails at every turn.
Seeing everything backwards is exactly right. Almost everything he says in that final speech in EC is either immediately false or is later revealed to be false. He even admits that Bella is his own drug in BD. I suppose his failure to "live up to the hype" is probably what rubs me the wrong way the most. Most of his "successes" are the result of sheer luck, a last-second break that could have gone disastrous save for fortune's intervention that either turns a bad decision into good (such as bringing Charlie over after Bella's change) or that prevents the bad decision entirely (his phase-lock at the wedding reception).

I too have to lay a lot of blame at Bella's feet, even as I am very sympathetic to her. There is a lot of animus I hold against Jacob simply because he plays on Bella's weaknesses and highlights them. I would rather get angry at Jacob than Bella. But...it's like when you have an employee who isn't following the rules. It's the manager's responsibility to provide the proper correction. If the employee is still acting up, you no longer have an employee problem, you have a manager problem. Bella was the adult in that relationship, and she was just hoping that Jacob would let sleeping dogs lie and play nice. She should have known better. Her mixed signals in EC were a constant source of disappointment for me.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:13 pm

Yes, but her mixed signals were more because she loved him but didn't recognise it and was having trouble letting him go than not laying down the rules. She didn't understand what game they were playing, so part of her was playing by its rules, while the rest of her didn't even know she was involved in the game. Lack of self knowledge, again.
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