Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Violet Sunlight
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:34 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
Tornado wrote:
With this in mind, I was enraged when Jacob told Bella that Edward was the drug. It seemed so typical of him to see himself as the perfect answer to everything, and everyone else as in the wrong. I never thought that their relationship would be as easy as he thought. They are too different for that. It would be hard work, although not impossible, to have made a relationship between the two of them last long term.
Ironically, this was the one time that I was able tgo look at Jacob's youth as at least a mitigating factor. HeKs a teenager and teenagers are amazingly narrow minded. We all were. Most of us, for a period of time could not see anything beyond how it effected us. Jacob has a lot of things that should have pushed him to open up his view of the world, and of his place in it. That he would see everything backwards in relation to his relationship with Bella didnt surprise me. It was just typical Jacob at that point. I think maybe that is a major reason why I am so disappointed in Jacob. He doesn't live up to the hype, so to speak. He's supposed to be this great friend and great leader and upstanding guy and he just fails at every turn. It's then, by succession, why I also spend so much time confused by Bella in her devotion to him. He does nothing but fail her time and again and yet she just keeps letting it go.

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Hi. Sorry for the long post.

You are right. Teenagers are amazingly narrow minded. Also, in my opinion, have poor emotional management skills, if any. However, for the most part, teenagers get a pass on the missmanagement of emotions/behaviors. After all, they are still growing, learning etc. physically, mentally, emotionally etc. But, somewhere in their twenties the pass expires and if they lack self-control by then people in their lives, usually, start recommending professional help, medicine, hobby etc. to fix the glitch in their system.

Although, I love the characters of Bella & Edward as individuals and as a couple, I love the character of Jacob too. I could see why a majority of readers/fans think Jacob, after the happy couple came back from Italy, say he was wrong for rudely interfering. But, I look at it like this. If I can let go of the fact that Edward & the Cullens (Rosalie excluded) politely and lovingly put Bella in serious dangerous situations by allowing her to be in their close proximity and Edward putting her in an intimate dangerous proximity. Then, I can let go of Jacob rudely interfering and 1. try to win Bella's heart, and to complicate things further, now from her dangerous vampire boyfriend (Luckily for the couple, I don't think Jacob knows that Bella is Edward's singer) and 2. try to save Bella from a. being killed by him and/or b. from being changed by him or his family.

So, I understand why Jacob did what he did. Because, if I was in the Twilight Universe and someone I loved was involved with a vampire(s) or in close proximity of one, I would move heaven and earth to get them safely away permanetly.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:07 am

I understand perfectly why Jacob did what he did, and his motivations (although he usually ignores what clearly was a primary motivation - that he wants Bella for himself) for trying to get Bella away from Edward. What I object to are his methods. He was far too pushy, aggressive and never acknowledged at any point that he was in any way wrong about anything. Yes, he was young, and this does excuse some things, but even then the excuse of age can only go so far. A decent person, as Jacob is supposed to be, should have shown at least a little restraint. His behaviour became so disgraceful it was difficult to view him as a sympathetic character, especially when coupled with this self righteous attitude. It is hardly surprising they've toned him down in the movies, as the book version of Jacob can be very repellant.
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:00 am

If you want a passage in the books that pretty well sums up the negative elements of Bella and Jacob's relationship, you probably can't do much better than what eventually became the infamous motorcycle scene from Eclipse:

I glanced, wide-eyed, from Edward’s grimace to Jacob’s sneer.
“What are you doing to him?” I demanded.
“It’s nothing, Bella,” Edward told me quietly. “Jacob just has a good memory, that’s all.”
Jacob grinned, and Edward winced again.
“Stop it! Whatever you’re doing.”
“Sure, if you want.” Jacob shrugged. “It’s his own fault if he doesn’t like the things I remember, though.”
I glared at him, and he smiled back impishly — like a kid caught doing something he knows he shouldn’t by someone who he knows won’t punish him.


That last sentence says it all.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:14 pm

Tornado wrote:I understand perfectly why Jacob did what he did, and his motivations (although he usually ignores what clearly was a primary motivation - that he wants Bella for himself) for trying to get Bella away from Edward. What I object to are his methods. He was far too pushy, aggressive and never acknowledged at any point that he was in any way wrong about anything. Yes, he was young, and this does excuse some things, but even then the excuse of age can only go so far. A decent person, as Jacob is supposed to be, should have shown at least a little restraint. His behaviour became so disgraceful it was difficult to view him as a sympathetic character, especially when coupled with this self righteous attitude. It is hardly surprising they've toned him down in the movies, as the book version of Jacob can be very repellant.
Hi.

First off, thank you so much for responding to my post. I enjoy talking Twilight especially with people/fans who have extensive knowledge of the Saga. What a treat.

Ok. For me, Jacob’s actions prove to me how thick his vampire prejudices are. Jacob believes vampires are dead. The dead don’t have or need rights. Therefore, doesn’t acknowledge Edward’s rights and Bella’s choice to be with Edward. Therefore, in Jacob’s mind Bella is single.

Jacob did not want to be pushy and aggressive with Bella but he had about less than 30 days to act before Bella dies and, not to mention, become his disgusting mortal enemy. It is hard to do things smoothly and in an orderly fashion when you are hard pressed like that. Jacob himself wishes he had more time to do things smoothly. But, that was, yet again, another luxury taken away from him because of a vampire.

At one point, I did want Jacob’s apology for kissing Bella without her permission. You can impulsively kiss your girlfriend but not before she is the girlfriend. However, towards the end of Eclipse she kisses him back and confirms his theory she does love him romantically. Then I said, forget it I don’t need an apology now. He read her actions correctly. If Bella would have never confirmed this then I would have needed an apology from him. His theory and even Edward’s theory was right. Bella romantically loves Jacob too.

I really think if Bella would have chosen a human or human shape-shifter instead of a vampire as a boyfriend, Jacob would have painfully walked away. Or, if Jacob still felt strongly for Bella, he would have at least remained nearby as a standby for Bella, waiting for her relationship to end. But, Jacob definitely would not have interfered. Jacob would have did what Leah did. Even though after Leah’s breakup, Leah was extremely hurt, especially given the fact that Leah & Sam’s relationship was way further along than Jacob & Bella’s, and keep in mind, Leah was replaced by her sister-like cousin, Leah did not interfere. Until she became a wolf, then there was nothing she could do about it. Leah was now forced to physically and emotionally (reading Sam’s mind therefore his intimate desires and probably see all the intimate scenes) remain near the new relationship that had and, now is, causing her pain. The move-on option for Leah has closed literally and emotionally. So what does she do, after a while, she puts her pain on the side and not only gives the new couple her blessings, and not only will she be a guess in their wedding, but has decided to be a bridesmaid. Wow, talk about maturity, there it is. Leah now is trying to be on friendly terms with the new couple and proves it with her actions. Which is why, I think Jacob going to the wedding is proof that Bella is his best-friend too. Normally, the ex never goes to the wedding of the new couple. It is too painful. Jacob put his romantic affections on the side and put on his best-friend hat. Everything is fine until Bella tells him she will be having a real honeymoon. That is when he looses it. Not only does he know they will be painfully changing her and has the knowledge that the changing process is excruciating, (for him that means her death and her becoming his disgusting vampire enemy), Edward will now cause Bella unnecessary pain, maybe killing her tortuously, by having a normal honeymoon with her human self. Jacob was ok with the idea of Bella having a honeymoon as long as she was a vampire. Edward choosing to gamble again on Bella’s well-being is too much for Jacob to handle. Again, Jacob has reached his limits.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:46 pm

corona wrote:If you want a passage in the books that pretty well sums up the negative elements of Bella and Jacob's relationship, you probably can't do much better than what eventually became the infamous motorcycle scene from Eclipse:

I glanced, wide-eyed, from Edward’s grimace to Jacob’s sneer.
“What are you doing to him?” I demanded.
“It’s nothing, Bella,” Edward told me quietly. “Jacob just has a good memory, that’s all.”
Jacob grinned, and Edward winced again.
“Stop it! Whatever you’re doing.”
“Sure, if you want.” Jacob shrugged. “It’s his own fault if he doesn’t like the things I remember, though.”
I glared at him, and he smiled back impishly — like a kid caught doing something he knows he shouldn’t by someone who he knows won’t punish him.


That last sentence says it all.

Again, Jacob was right. Jacob did not know if Bella sugar coated what really happened.

I suffered for Edward's sake too. And Bella's. While reading the book the first time. But, Edward has his 100+ years of dazzling tricks and Jacob has his teenage immaturity tricks. Edward is right, Jacob is quick and cunning. And that was meant for Edward not Bella. Like Jacob says he is working with what he has.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:11 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:
corona wrote:If you want a passage in the books that pretty well sums up the negative elements of Bella and Jacob's relationship, you probably can't do much better than what eventually became the infamous motorcycle scene from Eclipse:

I glanced, wide-eyed, from Edward’s grimace to Jacob’s sneer.
“What are you doing to him?” I demanded.
“It’s nothing, Bella,” Edward told me quietly. “Jacob just has a good memory, that’s all.”
Jacob grinned, and Edward winced again.
“Stop it! Whatever you’re doing.”
“Sure, if you want.” Jacob shrugged. “It’s his own fault if he doesn’t like the things I remember, though.”
I glared at him, and he smiled back impishly — like a kid caught doing something he knows he shouldn’t by someone who he knows won’t punish him.


That last sentence says it all.

Again, Jacob was right. Jacob did not know if Bella sugar coated what really happened.

I suffered for Edward's sake too. And Bella's. While reading the book the first time. But, Edward has his 100+ years of dazzling tricks and Jacob has his teenage immaturity tricks. Edward is right, Jacob is quick and cunning. And that was meant for Edward not Bella. Like Jacob says he is working with what he has.
Does it matter if Bella sugar-coated it or not? Does it matter if it was meant for Edward and not Bella or not? Jacob is inflicting what is clearly emotional and psychological torture and is completely delighting in it. The difference between the two is absolutely evident here. No matter Edward's personal feelings about Jacob (and let's be honest, he had plenty of reason to all-out hate the mongrel), he would never inflict that kind of pain on him because he knew it would hurt Bella. Edward NEVER put Bella in the middle and Jacob did nothing but. Jacob knew he could use his mind, his memories and his fantasies, against Edward and there was absolutey nothing Edward could do to stop it. Even during that disgusting display on the mountain, he KNEW Edward would hear, would see, and he WANTED him too. All Edward truly ever did was try to make peace with Jacob for Bella's sake, and moments like this are how he's repaid.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:23 pm

Does it matter if Bella sugar-coated it or not? Does it matter if it was meant for Edward and not Bella or not? Jacob is inflicting what is clearly emotional and psychological torture and is completely delighting in it. The difference between the two is absolutely evident here. No matter Edward's personal feelings about Jacob (and let's be honest, he had plenty of reason to all-out hate the mongrel), he would never inflict that kind of pain on him because he knew it would hurt Bella. Edward NEVER put Bella in the middle and Jacob did nothing but. Jacob knew he could use his mind, his memories and his fantasies, against Edward and there was absolutey nothing Edward could do to stop it. Even during that disgusting display on the mountain, he KNEW Edward would hear, would see, and he WANTED him too. All Edward truly ever did was try to make peace with Jacob for Bella's sake, and moments like this are how he's repaid.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, I love that you are making me use my Twilight muscle. If I could hug you, I would.

By the way, I do love my gentlemanly fairytale prince charming Edward and my fun Bad Boy Wild Card Jacob. I get the best of both worlds in the twilight universe.

OK. In this scene Jacob unintentionally puts Bella in the middle to purposefully hurt Edward emotionally. Jacob probably thought Edward would not have shown his pain only felt it. Therefore, only Edward would suffer not Bella. It was a bonus for Jacob that it did a better job than he initially thought. I am sure he was not counting on Bella's suffering. This is unfortunately, the consequences for Bella for emotionally dragging someone along for her benefit. As Tornado and Jazzgirl so brilliantly said Bella also keeps Jacob around as an insurance policy in case Edward dumps her again for her own good Jacob can make repairs. Jacob has clearly said how he feels about Bella and no matter how much Bella tries to convince Jacob to be something else Jacob has said flat out no. So everyone involved continually suffers.

Ok. Here is Edward's comeback. In the end of the tent scene Edward intentionally puts Bella in the middle to purposefully hurt Jacob emotionally when he knowingly says out loud My top ten best was when you said you will marry me. Mrs. Cullen. Of course Edward got what he wanted Jacob heard everything and now is emotionally hurt. Edward too was surprise how the plan affected Bella. But, in this case the ramifications went further than just hurt for Bella and Jacob this catapolted their relationship. But of course it was short lived because as we know Bella loves Edward more.

So our prince charming is not beneath playing dirty. I think that tent scene made Edward pretty nervous. And her not wearing the wedding ring probably made him nervous. And he was not taking any chances. Edward does not have to play hard he already has Bella and they both have all the time in the world. Bella human, Bella vampire it is the same thing. But, Jacob does not. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:40 pm

Okay, this is going to be long, so you might want to get a cup of coffee! :roll:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Ok. For me, Jacob’s actions prove to me how thick his vampire prejudices are.
While I recognise that a lot of prejudice comes into play when it comes to Jacob's behaviour, this is still not enough to excuse him. He is, as is repeatedly said, a very good person. Seth manages to treat the vampires well. Jealousy is the most likely thing at play here. But, because he is a good person, I do expect a certain level of good behaviour from him, which we don't usually get by the time we reach Eclipse.
Violet Sunlight wrote: Jacob believes vampires are dead. The dead don’t have or need rights. Therefore, doesn’t acknowledge Edward’s rights and Bella’s choice to be with Edward. Therefore, in Jacob’s mind Bella is single.
It is clear by his behaviour that he does not believe Bella is single, or else he wouldn't be trying so hard or be in such a hurry to steal her away, as she would be in no danger of going off with Edward. He knows that she wants to be with Edward. He certainly does want to "save her from the monster", and he hopes that if she realises that she loves him too it might make her change her mind. But I do believe there is more selfishness than selflessness in his motivation.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Jacob did not want to be pushy and aggressive with Bella but he had about less than 30 days to act before Bella dies and, not to mention, become his disgusting mortal enemy. It is hard to do things smoothly and in an orderly fashion when you are hard pressed like that. Jacob himself wishes he had more time to do things smoothly. But, that was, yet again, another luxury taken away from him because of a vampire.
That is true, but it only excuses so much. Again, Jacob is repeatedly called a good person, but he displays extremely poor judgement, poor behaviour, and hurts Bella time and time again by his behaviour towards Edward. He also refuses to trust her judgement. While his behaviour is understandable, in my mind how far he went tarnishes the idea that he is so good.
Violet Sunlight wrote:At one point, I did want Jacob’s apology for kissing Bella without her permission. You can impulsively kiss your girlfriend but not before she is the girlfriend. However, towards the end of Eclipse she kisses him back and confirms his theory she does love him romantically. Then I said, forget it I don’t need an apology now. He read her actions correctly. If Bella would have never confirmed this then I would have needed an apology from him. His theory and even Edward’s theory was right. Bella romantically loves Jacob too.
That does not mean that he was right to do this. The ends do not justify the means. To manipulate someone into kissing you by threatening to kill yourself is not acceptable behaviour regardless of the end result. While it is good that Bella realises her true feelings for Jake, it is inexcusable that he goes to these lengths to inform her of it. No matter the result, it was an insensitive and abrasive way of behaving. What makes it even worse is that he congratulates himself for it. Once Bella had acknowledged her love for him it would have been a good time for him to say, "I'm sorry for the things I did that hurt you, although I'm not sorry for why I did them." He doesn't. He pats himself of the back for it instead.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I really think if Bella would have chosen a human or human shape-shifter instead of a vampire as a boyfriend, Jacob would have painfully walked away. Or, if Jacob still felt strongly for Bella, he would have at least remained nearby as a standby for Bella, waiting for her relationship to end. But, Jacob definitely would not have interfered.
If he didn't believe that she loved him, maybe not. But, if he thought that she did love him, then I believe his behaviour would have been much the same, although he may have been a little more polite to his rival. His primary motivation is that he believes he's in with a chance. With Sam and Emily, Leah knew that Sam could never feel for her as he did for Emily, so it was a different situation.

I often wonder how Jake would have behaved if he had believed that Bella loved Mike Newton, rather than himself. It would be interesting to ask SM this. Would he have fought as hard? Would he have fought at all? I think he might have fought a little, but certainly not as hard as he did. Ironically, that would have made his behaviour more acceptable, because he would have been fighting on someone else's behalf, and he probably would have concentrated more on the vampire side of the equation than let his jealousy and arrogance get in the way as much as it did.
Violet Sunlight wrote:OK. In this scene Jacob unintentionally puts Bella in the middle to purposefully hurt Edward emotionally. Jacob probably thought Edward would not have shown his pain only felt it. Therefore, only Edward would suffer not Bella. It was a bonus for Jacob that it did a better job than he initially thought. I am sure he was not counting on Bella's suffering. This is unfortunately, the consequences for Bella for emotionally dragging someone along for her benefit. As Tornado and Jazzgirl so brilliantly said Bella also keeps Jacob around as an insurance policy in case Edward dumps her again for her own good Jacob can make repairs. Jacob has clearly said how he feels about Bella and no matter how much Bella tries to convince Jacob to be something else Jacob has said flat out no. So everyone involved continually suffers.
I think it's a bit much to blame Bella for Jacob's performance here. In fact, his opinion of Edward is so low I'm sure he would have expected Edward to tell Bella what he had done just to elicit sympathy from her and turn her against Jacob. There is no reason to suspect that he did not mean to hurt Bella. This is made clear when Bella asks him not to do it again, and he can barely give her a civil response. Not exactly the reply you'd give if it had just occurred to you that the woman you love might have been hurt by this action, which is pretty obvious at that stage. He simply finds everything he does justifiable and everyone else's behaviour, if it doesn't agree with his, suspect. Typical Jacob behaviour.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Ok. Here is Edward's comeback. In the end of the tent scene Edward intentionally puts Bella in the middle to purposefully hurt Jacob emotionally when he knowingly says out loud My top ten best was when you said you will marry me. Mrs. Cullen. Of course Edward got what he wanted Jacob heard everything and now is emotionally hurt. Edward too was surprise how the plan affected Bella. But, in this case the ramifications went further than just hurt for Bella and Jacob this catapolted their relationship. But of course it was short lived because as we know Bella loves Edward more.
It was certainly wrong for Edward to do that, although he was correct in saying that Jacob did have a right to know. It was clear that there was something wrong in the fact that Bella didn't want to tell Jacob that she was engaged, which, I'm sure, hurt Edward. Considering the wrongs that Jake had piled up against Edward at this point, and after the night he had just had, it wasn't surprising that he snapped. But a very wrong thing to do, certainly, as he then acknowledges. This is always the primary reason why I like Edward more than Jacob. Edward is man enough to admit when he has done the wrong thing and apologise. Jacob just says that he was right to do it and he'd do it again. I can't stand that kind of arrogance.
Violet Sunlight wrote:So our prince charming is not beneath playing dirty. I think that tent scene made Edward pretty nervous. And her not wearing the wedding ring probably made him nervous. And he was not taking any chances. Edward does not have to play hard he already has Bella and they both have all the time in the world. Bella human, Bella vampire it is the same thing. But, Jacob does not. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
It's odd that you would mention her not wearing the ring in this context. Yes, it made Edward nervous. He is never as sure of Bella as Bella seems to think he is, and this is justified, since she does love Jacob too. It was hardly surprising that he felt the need for reassurance. That he has Bella for certain is by no means clear, as her behaviour tells him, such as not wearing the ring and wanting to see Jacob all the time. TGDS (The Great Dog Snog) only confirms this for him.
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:23 am

I think a lot of the positive views of Jacob, and/or free passes, sympathy, understanding, "he is young and making mistakes", has it's best foundation and argument in Stephenie's own words from her EC FAQ on her website. I don't necessarily buy it, but I think more and more that what she is expressing there is almost exactly what Bella would have said. Bella would blame herself, her lack of self-knowledge, for everything. The blame she would place on Edward's shoulders would be his extreme reactions, knowing all the while that his heart was always in the right place and that his decisions were always motivated by wanting the best for her. And for Jacob...Bella holds him utterly blameless.

At that "motorcycle scene" Jacob gives Edward a major smackdown and causes friction between him and Bella by calling him a liar. Then he tortures him. Then he delivers the ultimate insult by completely dismissing his presence and basically making a pass at Bella, right in front of him.

Jacob was begging for a hard correction at that moment, but Bella winds up almost apologizing for not seeing him when it was Jacob that was ignoring her calls. She wants to comfort the boy who was causing Edward such pain that she would have rather died a hundred deaths than have him suffer like that. But because it was Jacob doing that instead of Jane, suddenly it's more like a slightly annoying skin rash than a hundred deaths.

By the time Jacob takes off in his motorcycle, he has all of the information he could possibly want. He knows he has power over Bella, that she will not set boundaries for him, and he knows he can manipulate her while at the same time insulting her boyfriend without ever being called out on it. So, I do understand why he thinks he has a chance. After all, Jacob is essentially rewarded for insulting and torturing Edward when Bella runs off to La Push when Edward is away. She interprets his misbehavior to Edward as being "in pain" because of her, and that it is her fault, but her attempts to make things right only reinforces the notion to Jacob that she may very well end up preferring him rather than Edward.

Note that I don't let Jacob off the hook. Playing around in the world of adults means you have to learn to start accepting responsibility for your actions. Frankly, I thought Seth showed a lot more maturity and selflessness than Jacob, at least he understands that you don't manhandle the bride at her wedding or threaten to kill the groom.

I really wish Bella had talked more with Edward about what had happened to her when he left her. I understand her forgiving him, but there were consequences to him leaving. Forgiving him to the point where she believes there actually wasn't anything to forgive may have helped smooth their reunion, but it left her in a position where Edward did nothing wrong while she had picked up a boyfriend while he was away. In a sense I think her epiphany, that her subconscious always knew that Edward still loved her, ends up setting her up for EC. Bella always loved Edward. Edward always loved Bella, but it was her fault that she didn't recognize that, and Edward actually reinforces that upon their reunion. So that means Jacob is evidence of her cheating on Edward, not evidence that Edward had abandoned her.

I think JazzGirl is right. This couple sometimes had some real communication problems. So much pain could have been avoided with a little more honesty and openness. And Jacob, for that matter, would have benefited as well.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi Tornado. Thank you for responding to me. I am responding to your 10/26/11 post. I am not going to quote because my post is already way too long. I hope I did not miss one of your points.

Jacob’s prejudices does not excuse him but it explains why the hatred towards Edward is not just mere jealousy (which he admits he is in the tent) of the fact Edward gets to be near Bella even after he dumped her and caused her so much pain but something more. Jacob lumps up the veggie-vampires and regular vampires together. He cannot let that go.

I excuse everything Jacob did in Eclipse and after once Bella did not take the out/exit Jacob offered her. He gave her an out before the letter writing and in the letter writing. She said no. She wants to stay on the Jacob team. The particular reason is not important to Jacob, the point is Bella said yes I want to stay on. He made his intentions clear he will not split Bella the best-friend and Bella the potential girlfriend. Jacob also made his fighting styles evident with his poor treatment of Alice and Edward in New Moon. She still said she wants to stay on. All righty then, let the games begin. As a matter of fact, he gave her another out in Eclipse, when Jacob said take me as I am or leave me. Again, she said no we are friends. I am not choosing, I am keeping you and Edward. Something about “no crazy virgos here”. O.K. half time is over, lets get back to the game. I see Jacob’s style of fighting as a football player. He is playing every position and hard. It is going to be a bloody mess and there will be casualties. Now he is not only trying to win her love but fights for her humanity as well. Even if she won’t fight for it. Edward doing a sly comeback was brilliant. And no I don’t want an apology for that either. All right now folks we have reached super bowl status. Fight hard and fight with every trick you got. Unfortunately, for Jacob he lost no romance and Bella will die. That had to suck. Well, when the game was over I thought Jacob was going to be a real bad sore loser. Especially, when Edward put his hand out to say good game no hard feelings please come to the wedding for her, and Jacob ran off. I was like now that is poor sportsmanship. But, no worries he came to the wedding anyway. Again, I do not need an apology for the delayed reaction either.

I also don’t want an apology from Bella for wanting to play either.

And if Bella forgave Edward for dumping her/breaking up with her and making her seriously depressed then great. And if Edward already knows Jacob is the consequence of his actions and does not seek nor want an apology from Bella for keeping Jacob around and playing the game then all is forgiven. I am sure for Edward anything is better than being separated from Bella and reliving his serious period of self-loathing. So the trio gets a pass on all verbal and physical painful actions.

I personally don’t like football, things tend to get too much for me to handle but once in a while it is interesting to watch.


It’s also like paying to see a rated R movie. I can’t get upset at the offensive language and scenes. I knew what I was in for when I bought the ticket. If the movie was something other than what I paid for then somebody owes me an apology and my money back.

And since, we agree that Jacob’s pushiness and aggressiveness towards Bella is due to the time constrictions on her life I don’t need an apology for that either.

Also, you point out Jacob doesn’t trust Bella’s judgment. That is true. But, since we don’t call Edward out on it we can’t call Jacob on it.

As for the 1st kiss without permission I throw that under the football game casualties too. Even though she says she did not enjoy it I bet her subconscious did. Because her subconscious and Jacob were always on the same page about their romance. Maybe not on her humanity but definitely their romance and/or potential for romance.

Again for me, Jacob is a good person. I can’t forget how he chose to be with Bella at her worst. How many teenagers or adults would want the responsibility of someone’s mental well being? Even with a pretty face? Edward only had to deal with his hang-ups not Bella’s. He did all of this even before knowing how Bella would feel about him. As romantic as Edward was in Twilight, and as impossible as I thought that it would be for Bella to find anything even close to Edward’s romance, I was floored with Jacob’s compassion and his high spirits. Their friendship was the foundation of their crazy relationship. But, Jacob had his work cut out for him. Jacob would have to be strong enough to suffer with her and smart enough to guide her out of it. Gently showing her the light so Bella can be her strong self and live, love, laugh, hope all over again. That, right there, is what always kept Jacob on equal grounds with Edward for me. Even Alice tells Bella it is too bad you have to pick between two good things.

For me, I don’t wonder how Jake would be if Bella would have chosen a regular human. Jacob giving Bella an out/exit so she can be with Edward proves this for me.

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