Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

[corona]

And I know this is nit-picky, but I don't see Bella as being inexorably drawn to Jacob romantically any time soon in that other world where Edward doesn't exist. Maybe give it three to four years when Jacob finally graduates high school, and as long Bella hasn't found someone else by then. Otherwise, I don't see them getting together on some natural path while the age difference is so significant between them unless something really unusual somehow manages to jump start that relationship. Personally, I think SM may well have started Jacob off a little order if she had known in advance what she had planned for him. Who knows, maybe even the werewolves massive growth spurts were originally inspired by needing to advance Jacob's apparent age in order to make their relationship believable.

That's a very good point, corona. Since it's clear that Bella's intention was to leave Forks as soon as she'd graduated, would she have been around Jacob long enough to form that kind of a relationship with him? If Edward didn't exist, there would be no reason for her to stay in Forks that long. Jacob is still very young if Edward isn't there to trigger the wolf gene, so would he ever be mature enough for her while she's going to high school? Probably not. That does make a non-supernatural relationship between them even less likely.

Yes, I also had trouble with all the lines about Jacob being soulmate and the sun and natural as breathing. It's pushed to such an extent that it gives rise to the belief that Bella is making a mistake in choosing Edward. Perhaps this was why more emphasis was made in the movie version on Bella feeling that she was born for a supernatural life. It's just a pity they felt they had to sideline Edward to make the point. Truly, with all that "easy as breathing" stuff and making Edward look like nothing more than the convenient vessel by which Bella enters the supernatural world, is it any wonder the movie version of Eclipse made Edward look so impotent?

The only saving grace was when Jake said, during his goodbye scene with Bella, "he's not as perfect as you think he is", and she replied, "I know who he is". That was an emphasis that I felt was missing from the book, Bella making it clear to Jake that she knows better than him who Edward is, and she accepts him and loves him for that. I wished that line had been in the book.

I think an interesting way to approach this is to look at other discussions concerning Edward leaving in NM, and was he justified in doing so or is it possible to at least understand why he did that? In those discussions you actually see a lot of agreement concerning what had happened and the basic facts surrounding it. Most of that discussion revolves around Edward's judgment. There is a great deal of agreement on Edward's character and what he must have been thinking, even between two people who are on the opposite sides of the fence. But what happened is something that everyone sees coming and appears to flow naturally out of his character. After that, you can get into major disputes over whether he should have found a way to avoid that or at least not hurt Bella so much or whether or not he should have at least checked up on her periodically.

But it's here, when you get to the TGDS and its aftermath, that even the basic understanding of what happened and its meaning is disputed. With Edward leaving, the plot flows from the character. With Bella and Jacob it just always felt more artificial to me, caused by having a plot point dominate the story and then distorting the characters until you finally lead them to the resolution you were wanting to make.

Some people were perfectly fine with it. It was a personal sticking point for myself, but that was my issue.

I would not dispute that what was accomplished was very important. Bella becomes fully aware of the sacrifices she has to make, Jacob finally understands that there is nothing more he can do, and Edward can now see that Bella truly wants to stay with him forever. But, just because there is a need to accomplish something doesn't mean that that need automatically confers believability to the resolution.

Anyways, Tornado, I know we have different viewpoints on some of these things. I happened to see EC as being very calculated, even as it also has some of the best scenes in the story. It was the need to ratchet Bella all the way up in a sudden burst to realizing that Jacob was also her soulmate, while also absolving her due to a total lack of self-knowledge, that didn't work for me. And a lot of these discussions end up talking about how important this realization was for Bella. I really do understand that, but the importance of this epiphany is a completely separate thing from the way that it was achieved and whether it was believable and we could relate to it.

And, truthfully, a lot of my anger with Jacob is actually misplaced. Much of the problem isn't Jacob, it's actually Bella and her unwillingness to be firm with him and set boundaries. This is something she apparently does figure out by the end of EC, but then is still unwilling to be firm with him in BD, even forgiving him automatically for wanting to kill her husband at the reception, to the extent she doesn't even bring it up when Jacob arrives.

By the end of NM, my connection with Bella was very strong and I thought I understood her perfectly. And that was a lot of the fun in those first books, that all of could so easily relate to her while she is confusing the hell out of Edward. By the time I got to BD, though, I think I understood exactly how Edward felt, which made the POV switch even more aggravating.

[Jazz Girl]

By the end of NM, my connection with Bella was very strong and I thought I understood her perfectly. And that was a lot of the fun in those first books, that all of could so easily relate to her while she is confusing the hell out of Edward. By the time I got to BD, though, I think I understood exactly how Edward felt, which made the POV switch even more aggravating.

We are of the same mind there. It's always amazed me that the impression of Bella's character is always as a placeholder because so many girls and young women identify with her and put themselves in the story. In all honesty, I can see that in Twilight and New Moon. But, once they turn to walk into Charlie's house, all bets are off. Throughout most of Eclipse and Breaking Dawn, I have no understanding of Bella's behavior at all. I cannot reconcile the fact that she's absolutely dead set against marrying Edward, but completely expects him to change her. I cannot fathom at all her not just inability but absolute refusal to even take into account Edward's feelings about her relationships with Jacob. I am beyond stumped regarding her total refusal to set any kind of boundary with Jacob, or her inability to hold him accountable for any of the horrible things he says or does. And yet, the entire time, it is Edward she claims to love more than life itself, Edward she cannot live without. Jacob's desperate and completly idiotic actions at the wedding should have been the last straw. He physically hurt her in anger and threatened to kill her husband for gods' sake, the man that she claims to be completely willing to give up humanity for. And yet, she cannot think of any better way to defend her relationship with him than, "shut up Jake, this is none of your business"? Don't even get me started on her behavior during the pregnancy. But, even if you subscribe to the theory that it was the pull between Ness and Jacob causing that (which I clearly have issue in swallowing), you cannot tell me that even in giving in to her draw to him, she can't at the very least be bothered to be the slightest bit considerate of her husband in not openly flirting with his worst enemy, or maybe acknowledging that her husband is terrified beyond reason that she's going to die and his last vision of her is going to be of her snuggled up against another man! Even after Ness' birth and her change, Bella indulges Jacob's every whim. Granted, she does so because they are Ness' whims. But, it always bothered me that Bella never tried to assert her position as Ness' mother and put some sort of boundary around their relationship.

In short, I always found it funny that SM always said that she was afraid that we would no longer be able to identify with Bella when she became a vampire. On the contrary, it was most of her human crazy I couldn't identify with. Once she was changed, I actually found her a lot easier to understand.

[Tornado]

But it's here, when you get to the TGDS and its aftermath, that even the basic understanding of what happened and its meaning is disputed. With Edward leaving, the plot flows from the character. With Bella and Jacob it just always felt more artificial to me, caused by having a plot point dominate the story and then distorting the characters until you finally lead them to the resolution you were wanting to make.

I agree, it felt like an odd fit to me too. I get that it shows how much she loves Edward that she turns Jacob down in spite of loving him, but I have difficulty buying it because they are such different people, and Jacob had become so repulsive by that stage I simply couldn't understand why he would possibly be considered as worthy competition. That she should seriously consider the Eclipse Jacob at all makes her relationship with Edward seem much less than I believe it is. I can handle it by calling it a rebound relationship. As Edward says, Jacob stitched her up when she was wounded after he left. That is at least a plausible explanation.

But this is why I argue so much against a real relationship with Jacob. Not only do he and Bella have little in common, his behaviour became so disgraceful in Eclipse I could never understand why the love she felt for him did not suffer at least to some extent, even though she understood the reason for his behaviour, especially since he was so vitriolic against he man she really loved (or loved more). The only way I understand that is through the believe that, contrary to what he thinks, Jake is really the one who is a drug for her. He was the medicine she became addicted to when recovering from the injury caused by Edward's absence, and she couldn't give it up.

[corona]

Tornado, I like your point about Jacob being the real drug for Bella. And he certainly was a drug for her during her NM phase. I too was quite bothered by the fact that his behavior in EC had virtually no impact on her feelings or attitude towards him.

But, that was the trick, wasn't it? Her complete lack of self-knowledge was given as the reason for her behavior. And she will not resolve their relationship until she is able to confront her own feelings about him.

Personally, I always saw the eclipse coming at B&E's reunion in NM. At that point Bella would either acknowledge her feelings for Jacob but move on, or it simply wouldn't be possible to resurrect them again. And yet her bond to him seems to actually grow in EC, all while he is acting in such a boorish manner. I agree, I didn't understand how that could happen.

But, SM absolves Bella due to this lack of self-knowledge, even going so far as to say that if Bella had actually dealt with her feelings for Jacob, she would have cut it off or at least set boundaries for their friendship.

Even though the setup felt artificial, I still would have accepted it, despite my earlier words, as long as I could have been seduced into believing that it was all worth it. If the payoff is big enough and there is clarity, then OK, I can accept it and wave my hand at the improbability of the whole thing.

But, you really don't know whether it was worth it or not until you get to BD. I can see JazzGirl's and December's view, where the meadow scene appears to be a critical foreshadowing of the choices made. Bella is empowered, allbeit at great cost, and in control of her future. Edward finally understands that this is a partnership and that his own choices have been tainted by trying to decide on his own what was best for Bella, and that this has only caused her pain. For myself, I simply wanted to see them both meet their destiny, however it was going to happen, but without the cloud of that painful triangle still hanging over their heads. I was so tired of that. I was over it by the end of NM. I was really over it by the end of EC

JazzGirl, I understand exactly how you feel, and it was so frustrating. Just a little effort from Bella to get Jacob to back off some would have done so much good. She was far too trusting of him, and that was something I needed to see change in BD. His constant little guilt-trips at the reception should have warned her, but she gushes over him instead and unwittingly helped set the foundation for his inappropriate questions.

I see the pull between them as a rehash of the tent scene. The big difference is that there is no foul in the tent and it actually is believable. We know this is SM setting us up, but it's OK because the tent scene works. Extended tent scene part 2 during the pregnancy doesn't really work because it felt so artificial. Yes, it is canon that there was a pull between them, but it didn't make sense that Bella would feel it as the mother, and feel it so strongly that she acts out of character. The very acknowledgment of this imprinting device as the reason for the pull has always demonstrated to me that SM knew that she needed a reason for their behavior that would provide an absolution. And if an absolution is needed, then you have a very strong argument that, yes, Bella was acting inappropriately and/or out of character during that time.

But, do I blame SM for this? You see some of that right here, but I can't stay angry with our author when she has given us so much reading pleasure and a brilliant love story. Do I blame Bella? Bella is my girl, and she really did go a little crazy. If she can endure Edward leaving and summon the courage to save him from the Volturi, then I can forgive her for everything. Do I blame Edward? Perish the thought, Edward is the man and is fully capable of providing his own absolution (though he doesn't know it), he neither wants nor needs any excuses for his behavior, he bears it all as a grown man should.

No, I blame Jacob. It's that simple, and it's so easy and liberating. It just...feels so good.

[Tornado]

I do blame Edward to some extent for being so stupid as to leave her in the first place. Although his motivations were noble, the mere fact that he thought she would be safe without anyone to protect her shows just how much he was trying to dupe himself into believing that she really would be better off without him. She was such a danger magnet that he should have realised it wasn't going to be that way.

I blame Bella for not realising the way she felt for Jake, but I do understand how that is possible. I still don't understand how that feeling didn't suffer in the face of his boorish behaviour, especially since she had such a wonderful alternative. This is further proof of my drug theory. Even in BD Jacob acknowledges that Bella is a drug for him - he has to have his hit to get by, so I think there's good reason to believe this.

And of course, I blame Jake for being such a pain in the [insert word of choice]. And I do blame SM to some extent, although I thank her profusely for giving us these characters in the first place. I have read, though, when the anti-Jacob bias emerged in New Moon, that she thought once everyone had read Eclipse they would start to like him. I find that incomprehensible. I much preferred Jacob in New Moon. I could understand the reasons for his behaviour and relate to them, at least to some extent. But his behaviour in Eclipse, although I understand the motivation for it, I could not accept because it was so obnoxious and arrogant. I cannot imagine someone who is as "good" as Jacob is supposed to be behaving so reprehensibly. If my son ever behaves like that to anyone, whatever the reason, I will lock him in his room until he learns to behave!

Jake's behaviour just kept getting worse and worse, and this was compounded when Bella actually responded to it. The drug, again, that she couldn't stop injecting, even though it was damaging the main relationship in her life.

[Jazz Girl]

But this is why I argue so much against a real relationship with Jacob. Not only do he and Bella have little in common, his behaviour became so disgraceful in Eclipse I could never understand why the love she felt for him did not suffer at least to some extent, even though she understood the reason for his behaviour, especially since he was so vitriolic against he man she really loved (or loved more). The only way I understand that is through the believe that, contrary to what he thinks, Jake is really the one who is a drug for her. He was the medicine she became addicted to when recovering from the injury caused by Edward's absence, and she couldn't give it up.

What an absolutely perfect way to term this! You are absolutely right. That's how she truly always saw Jacob, as the bandaid that covered the gaping hole left in her life. And, I think it truly illuminates one of the true reasons why Bella absolutely refused to create any kind of healthy boundaries with the mongrel, especially when she was pregnant. As I've said before, I've honestly never truly bought into the idea that it was the pull between Ness and Jacob that caused Bella's behavior in BD. I know that it is the excuse were given, but it just doesn't wash with me for many reasons. Not the least of which are that it IS so out of character for Bella and that it does feel so contrived. But also because the outright flirtation from Bella to Jacob seemed so much more intense than if it was just a pull to have him present caused by the baby. Because of that, it made more sense to me that Bella's behavior with Jake was holding on to her standby, while trying to hasten what she saw as inevitable. She was keeping Jacob close and interested and trying to push Edward to leave the way she believed he would.

Bella, in all honesty, never truly got a satisfactory opportunity (that we saw anyways) to truly put everything she endured in Edward's absence on the table. Sure, she says the fairy tale is resumed. But, even more unresolved than her feelings for her Paris are her feelings regarding Romeo's betrayal. It's one thing to be left because the person doesn't love you anymore. It's entirely another for that person to love you beyond reason and still leave. If that is true, what's to prevent it from happening again? Yes, Edward gave her his word he was back and that there was no way he could ever leave her again. But, I think Bella's great epiphany was much more mental than emotional and it's one thing to believe something in your head, but an entirely different thing to understand it in your heart. So, in a way, Bella was always waiting for the thing that would finally push Edward to run again, to leave her broken and bleeding again. So she held on to the one thing she knew would at least dull the pain when he did. She couldn't set boundaries with Jacob because she was too afraid that those boundaries would push him away and he wouldn't be there to put her back together when Edward left again, the way she was terrified he would. So, in stead of flushing her pain meds down the toilet as soon as she didn't need them anymore, Bella kept the bottle in the back of the medicine cabinet, just waiting for the day when she would need them again.

And, in all honesty, what would be more likely to make Edward run than being faced with Bella's literal refusal to save her own life. She was forcing him to do the one thing that he always swore would completely break him, so surely he would run at that point, right? So what's the harm in moving that pill bottle from the back to the front of the cabinet, just so it's right there when she needs it? That's how I view her behavior with Jacob during the pregnancy. She's priming him, in a way. She's nursing the connection between them, reminding him of their feelings for each other. At least up until Edward hears Ness' thoughts... That's the tipping point. The fact that Bella's behavior towards Jacob cools at that point, while Ness is still in Bella to create that pull, is compelling evidence to me that there was something else going on.

And we see that on both sides. After Edward hears Ness, his entire outlook changes. Not only does his attitude towards Ness change entirely, but so too does his attitude towards Bella's change in general. He goes from knowing Bella will die to bring a monster into the world to believing that she could be changed in time while giving their daughter life. And it's in that change that we see both Bella's and Jacob's behavior change too. Yes, Bella's still affectionate with Jacob, but not to such an inappropriate degree. She's not outright flirting with him. Her interactions become more what I would see as believably due to feeling the pull from her daughter to keep him near. Edward's change in attitude is the point at which he finally passes Bella's unconcious test. If he didn't run by that point, than he truly meant that he would stay with her and wants her forever, and she can finally get let the standby go.

So, is Bella culpable in how horribly she treated Edward (and honestly, Jacob too)? Well, I always believe that loving someone as deeply as Bella loves Edward should make you more attuned to their feelings, not less so. But, fear can make you do crazy things. I can imagine that fear of returning to the abyss she was in after Edward left would make Bella pretty clueless to a lot of things. Not to mention, most of this was probably unconcious. One would have to be pretty self-aware to see these dynamics at work, and we've already established where Bella falls on the self-awareness meter.

[Tornado]

Yes, Bella's still affectionate with Jacob, but not to such an inappropriate degree. She's not outright flirting with him. Her interactions become more what I would see as believably due to feeling the pull from her daughter to keep him near. Edward's change in attitude is the point at which he finally passes Bella's unconcious test. If he didn't run by that point, than he truly meant that he would stay with her and wants her forever, and she can finally get let the standby go.

I think that's true up to a point; my only problem being that she didn't get much of an opportunity to prove this theory, as the crisis struck almost immediately after Jacob came back. I think that's probably a good thing!

[corona]

Brilliant post, JazzGirl, that has really clarified a lot of things for me. Things are finally starting to add up in mind.

You just made me want to read the entire series again, even the painful parts I would be tempted to skip. And now I want to reread Eclipse probably more than any other one.

[smitten_by_twilight]

So sad that I have missed out on the activity here!

But this is why I argue so much against a real relationship with Jacob. Not only do he and Bella have little in common, his behaviour became so disgraceful in Eclipse I could never understand why the love she felt for him did not suffer at least to some extent, even though she understood the reason for his behaviour, especially since he was so vitriolic against he man she really loved (or loved more). The only way I understand that is through the believe that, contrary to what he thinks, Jake is really the one who is a drug for her. He was the medicine she became addicted to when recovering from the injury caused by Edward's absence, and she couldn't give it up.

Absolutely right, and this is brilliant of you. Like many people, Jake makes a statement intended to be about Edward that is better applied to himself. Jake is Bella's living, breathing painkiller. She doesn't really need him anymore, except psychologically; and she feels guilty for abandoning him, and dropping a friend who helped you really isn't nice behavior. And then

She couldn't set boundaries with Jacob because she was too afraid that those boundaries would push him away and he wouldn't be there to put her back together when Edward left again, the way she was terrified he would. So, in stead of flushing her pain meds down the toilet as soon as she didn't need them anymore, Bella kept the bottle in the back of the medicine cabinet, just waiting for the day when she would need them again.

I don't know if I agree with the interpretation personally, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense ... particularly combined with her exceptional lack of perceptivity during Eclipse. Anyone else remember how she suddenly couldn't have a clue about Edward and Jacob?

And, I think it truly illuminates one of the true reasons why Bella absolutely refused to create any kind of healthy boundaries with the mongrel, especially when she was pregnant. As I've said before, I've honestly never truly bought into the idea that it was the pull between Ness and Jacob that caused Bella's behavior in BD.

I've probably argued for the canon point before ... but I never thought it did make sense.

Do I blame Bella? Bella is my girl, and she really did go a little crazy. If she can endure Edward leaving and summon the courage to save him from the Volturi, then I can forgive her for everything.

Nobody's blameless here except Nessie, although Edward fails from very noble motivations. I can forgive Bella a lot. Here's what I can't forgive her: little Edward Jacob. Boy, does that steam me. It's one thing to think it - but actually say it out loud!

And here's a new Jacob-blaming thought from the girl who keeps forgiving Jacob; he's trying to steal someone else's girlfriend. If he were a girl trying to do this, I would've despised him from the beginning.

[corona]

I went back and reconsidered Bella's "lack of self-knowledge" in light of the comments made here, and it does make a big difference for me.

Her love for Jacob alone didn't do it for me, it didn't make sense, seeing as how her love for Edward was so much greater. Because the love for Jacob was there due to Edward leaving, though, it creates an association that appears more logical -- admitting her love for Jacob is admitting that Edward hurt her grievously. But, there were so many times for Bella to have one of her self-examinations that it still seemed contrived; close, but not quite there.

But, what if the panics Bella experiences when Edward is away is not a Pavlovian symptom of the pain she experienced during that time? What if she still has ongoing doubts concerning whether Edward would leave her again? That would explain her behavior, at least to me. Bella is not just avoiding the pain of her past, but the threat of the pain coming back, a fear great enough that her subconscious immediately rejects any examination that or any subject too closely related to it (her love for Jacob).

As you might say, JazzGirl, would that fear be totally irrational, putting ourselves into Bella's position?

I can really see that. Jacob as the drug that numbed the pain, and what will be needed again if Edward leaves. And Edward exacerbates the fear, unwittingly, by demanding marriage first, requiring in essence a test of her devotion to him (or is he just buying time?). Well, yes to both; although his proposal is mostly because of love. Yet Edward's great fear is that Bella will resent him for changing her once it is done. I can see both fears feeding off each other (and they come very close to revealing their true fears to each other: You don't want to change me; You don't want to marry me).

And I can see Jacob now as being the battleground. Edward's proposal has the unspoken request: You Go First. He is asking Bella to put her full trust in him again, even as he is trying to buy more time and never really claims her, allowing her relationship with Jacob to continue. And I can see Bella reading that as ambivalence on Edward's part, more of a reason why she can't simply let Jacob go. For the first time, I actually have a small measure of sympathy for Jacob. He is being used by both sides as Bella and Edward are working out their issues through him.

And, in the end, Bella does have to go first, forced to that day of the newborn attack. She isn't prepared to let Jacob go, at least not yet, but the delays are over. I can even see her vision of family with Jacob as something that is actually a simple fact, that staying human will allow her to keep her connections with her parents, Jacob, humanity, and even allow her to have children, a semi-normal existence. I can even see where choosing Jacob would be the "healthy" choice, at least as long as she stays human. That's no slam on Edward, the best choice of all for Bella is Edward. But if Edward will not change her, is her second best choice staying with Edward while human? I think it might be Jacob.

I'm still working through this, picking my way around. I will never find "the answer", but I certainly can find it for myself, and this insight into Bella's fears has helped me a lot to resolve the story for myself. Suddenly a lot of things begin to make sense. I can even start to grasp why SM did the imprinting in BD. I still don't agree with it, but I can understand how SM might feel about Jacob, dragging him, an innocent bystander, through the angst of our young couple and then not wanting to take anything more away from him.

That doesn't mean I still won't swing a baseball bat at him, since he is begging for it. But maybe I'll use the bat of understanding instead of the bat of ill intent. It's all okay, as long as I feel better, about myself, which is what is really important.