Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Jazz Girl
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl »

Violet Sunlight~ I suppose we all have different views of what we consider unforgiveable and what we don't, what we'll hold people accountable for and what we don't. But, in all honesty, saying that, "Bella's subconscious" enjoyed the kiss and that made both kisses okay is a little disturbing. That's an interpretation of her feelings that goes completely against what her ourtight reaction was, which was to punch him in the face. That interpretation isn't okay. She said no, I don't want you to kiss me. Period. No argument. No debate. The punch in the face should have made that clear. It's absolutely NOT OKAY for him to try to make anymore romantic moves on her after that. She was clear. The only person who should be held responsible for his reprehensible behavior is him. He's the one who did something she SPECIFICALLY TOLD HIM she didn't want. He was wrong, end of discussion.

As for the encouragement Jake saw from Bella, she told him she wanted him as a friend, period. Was she the best at backing up and enforcing those boundaries? No, absolutely not. And, yes, I hold Bella responsible for not being more forceful about her boundaries with him. But, Jacob wants to play with the big kids, so he needs to be EQUALLY responsible for his behavior. He was told no repeatedly and he repeatedly violated that. But, not only did he violate it, he manipulated Bella into situations where he could get away with it. And Edward is caught in the middle because he knows Bella wants Jacob as her friend but isn't capable of backing up what she needs to do to get the message across. But, he also knows that any action on his part will hurt her and he isn't capable of doing that. So he can do nothing but sit back and watch while Jacob continues to put Bella in very compromising positions and then use it against her.

In the end, ALL THREE bear some responsibility for the clusterflop that was what happened. But, I think the take home message has to be that no one is responsible for the behavior of another person, but they HAVE TO BE responsible for their own behavior. Yes, Bella could have been more forceful and concrete about her expectations of Jacob. Yes, Edward could have spoken up about his concerns about the whole thing. But, no matter what, Jacob chose to behave the way he did; chose to kiss Bella against her wishes TWICE, chose to manipulate her, chose to continually pursue a woman who told him she only wanted to be friends, chose to act hatefully and hurtfully towards someone he knew to be a good person, chose to lash out and hurt more than once someone he claimed to love. He chose to behave in those ways and he is accountable for that.
Last edited by Jazz Girl on Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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corona
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona »

Jazz Girl wrote:But, Jacob wants to play with the big kids, so he needs to be EQUALLY responsible for his behavior.
So true, in my opinion. If you want to play with the big boys, you have to play by their rules. He can't simply rely on the fact that Bella is going to forgive him because she has guilt and fear and self-knowledge issues. The fact that he needed someone else to correct him and he wasn't going to set any boundaries for himself showed me he wasn't ready for prime-time.

A thought just struck me. Does Jacob ever show anyone any kindness once Edward returns and before the imprinting? I can't recall if he did. He occasionally showed Bella some kindness, but it always seemed calculated. I can't remember anyone else. Everyone was either leeches and bloodsuckers or got a fist in the face.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

corona wrote:A thought just struck me. Does Jacob ever show anyone any kindness once Edward returns and before the imprinting? I can't recall if he did. He occasionally showed Bella some kindness, but it always seemed calculated. I can't remember anyone else. Everyone was either leeches and bloodsuckers or got a fist in the face.
He does comment, when walking back to the house with Edward after his day trip, that it didn't feel like he was walking next to a vampire. It felt like he was walking next to anyone. Certainly, he then gives Edward permission to deviate from the treaty, so that's kind in a way that does not gain him anything. And he accepted the clothes and food from Esme nicely. It is clear that his behaviour towards them was changing. Post-imprint it probably changed more, but there wasn't time to explore this. Ironically, I wouldn't mind a bit of this section from his POV if it showed me some repentance from him over his previous treatment of the Cullens.

By the way, happy birthday, corona! :D
Violet Sunlight wrote:I excuse everything Jacob did in Eclipse and after once Bella did not take the out/exit Jacob offered her. He gave her an out before the letter writing and in the letter writing. She said no. She wants to stay on the Jacob team. The particular reason is not important to Jacob, the point is Bella said yes I want to stay on.
She wanted to be around him, but she still made it clear that it was not for the same reasons he wanted her around. She made it quite clear that Edward was who she wanted, and that she only wanted Jacob around as a friend, not a lover. Now perhaps you think that the fact that she did love Jacob renders this meaningless, but it must be remembered that she still chose Edward, not Jacob. So what she said to Jacob at these earlier points about wanting Edward instead of him still stands. Should she have been firmer with him? Definitely. But he still was way too pushy and aggressive with her, playing on her tendency to respond to guilt trips (Alice regularly uses this on her too).
Violet Sunlight wrote:He made his intentions clear he will not split Bella the best-friend and Bella the potential girlfriend. Jacob also made his fighting styles evident with his poor treatment of Alice and Edward in New Moon. She still said she wants to stay on. All righty then, let the games begin. As a matter of fact, he gave her another out in Eclipse, when Jacob said take me as I am or leave me. Again, she said no we are friends. I am not choosing, I am keeping you and Edward.
But again, she still made it clear that the reasons she wanted them around were different. She wanted Edward as the lover, Jacob as the friend. Ultimately, this is how it worked out.
Violet Sunlight wrote:So the trio gets a pass on all verbal and physical painful actions.
I don't agree with that. They certainly all made massive mistakes, but then, we're all human, if I can put it that way! ;) . But I can forgive both Bella and Edward more readily than Jacob because they acknowledged their mistakes, whereas Jacob just said, "I was right and I'd do it again." That's wrong. While he was right that Bella loved him, and I understand that he wanted to save her from "the monster", his behaviour was still way too extreme. He needed to acknowledge that he pushed too hard and hurt a lot of people in the process. He never even comes close to doing that.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And since, we agree that Jacob’s pushiness and aggressiveness towards Bella is due to the time constrictions on her life I don’t need an apology for that either.
I did not say it was only due to that. It may have been a mitigating factor, but the real reason for that is Jacob's self-righteousness. He should not have been as aggressive as he was. Lack of time does not excuse someone's poor behaviour. It may help us understand why he did what he did, but, being a good person, he still should have realised that he went too far and said sorry for that.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Also, you point out Jacob doesn’t trust Bella’s judgment. That is true. But, since we don’t call Edward out on it we can’t call Jacob on it.
While Edward may have some troubles with Bella's judgement at some stages, he then apologises for not trusting her judgement and accepts it, such as he did in the bedroom scene in Eclipse. "I'm going to be more reasonable and trust your judgement. If you say it's safe, then I'll believe you." Jacob never does this with anyone once he becomes a werewolf.
Violet Sunlight wrote:As for the 1st kiss without permission I throw that under the football game casualties too. Even though she says she did not enjoy it I bet her subconscious did. Because her subconscious and Jacob were always on the same page about their romance. Maybe not on her humanity but definitely their romance and/or potential for romance.
I agree with Jazz Girl here. There is no evidence (and we are inside Bella's head for this kiss) that she found that first kiss anything other than an assault. And nothing excuses any guy from doing something like that against a girl's will, whether she has feelings for him or not. That's like a rapist saying, "She agreed to come back to my place, so she knew it was going to happen." And it is only a step up from that. That kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Again for me, Jacob is a good person. I can’t forget how he chose to be with Bella at her worst. How many teenagers or adults would want the responsibility of someone’s mental well being? Even with a pretty face? Edward only had to deal with his hang-ups not Bella’s.
It's not a hard ask when you have a huge crush on them already. And Edward had to deal with Bella's feelings for Jacob. That was a lot for him to deal with. As usual, he blamed himself.
Violet Sunlight wrote:He did all of this even before knowing how Bella would feel about him. As romantic as Edward was in Twilight, and as impossible as I thought that it would be for Bella to find anything even close to Edward’s romance, I was floored with Jacob’s compassion and his high spirits. Their friendship was the foundation of their crazy relationship. But, Jacob had his work cut out for him. Jacob would have to be strong enough to suffer with her and smart enough to guide her out of it. Gently showing her the light so Bella can be her strong self and live, love, laugh, hope all over again. That, right there, is what always kept Jacob on equal grounds with Edward for me. Even Alice tells Bella it is too bad you have to pick between two good things.
Yes, I disagree with Alice on that point, certainly by that time! It also seems odd that Alice, who backed Edward up on holding Bella hostage, should do an about-face. I think that was SM letting a little of herself get in the way of Alice's character. Or maybe Alice was just being diplomatic.
Violet Sunlight wrote:For me, I don’t wonder how Jake would be if Bella would have chosen a regular human. Jacob giving Bella an out/exit so she can be with Edward proves this for me.
I don't get what you mean here. Jacob gives her no out. He wants her. It is Bella who says, even after realising she loves Jacob, "sorry, I don't want you. I want Edward." Jake has nowhere to go at that point. He has to give in.
Last edited by Tornado on Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Jazz Girl
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl »

Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Again for me, Jacob is a good person. I can’t forget how he chose to be with Bella at her worst. How many teenagers or adults would want the responsibility of someone’s mental well being? Even with a pretty face? Edward only had to deal with his hang-ups not Bella’s.
It's not a hard ask when you have a huge crush on them already. And Edward had to deal with Bella's feelings for Jacob. That was a lot for him to deal with. As usual, he blamed himself.
By virtue of being the man Bella chose, Edward had to deal with her hangups, and she had a boatload of them. When you are in a relationship with someone, a true partnership where the other person's happiness matters more to you than your own, that person's anxieties, fears, joys, triumphs and everything in between become your own. In fact, Edward is essentially an extreme expression of this. His happiness, contentment, anything, matters not to him at all anymore. It is only Bella who matters. Which is why every hang up she has becomes his own. The fact that her hang ups and anxieties essentially mirror Edwards and so serve to magnify them and play off of them just makes it worse. Neither Edward nor Bella believe they are good enough for the other. Neither Edward nor Bella believe that the other loves them nearly as much as they love her/him. These two factors play a huge role in the snowball that nearly destroys them. Once Edward returns, his own guilt is fed by Bella's contradictory actions which is born out of her mistrust of him. Everything Bella says to Edward, every action toward him, seemingly has an opposite action or reaction that he has to puzzle out. The ultimate action is that she trusts him enough, is devoted to him enough, loves him enough, to sacrifice her life and soul for forever with him. But, she's afraid enough of what people think to be nervous about a wedding? This makes no logical sense, but it's a "hangup" of Bella's that Edward has to navigate a path throug in trying to make both of them happy.
Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:He did all of this even before knowing how Bella would feel about him. As romantic as Edward was in Twilight, and as impossible as I thought that it would be for Bella to find anything even close to Edward’s romance, I was floored with Jacob’s compassion and his high spirits. Their friendship was the foundation of their crazy relationship. But, Jacob had his work cut out for him. Jacob would have to be strong enough to suffer with her and smart enough to guide her out of it. Gently showing her the light so Bella can be her strong self and live, love, laugh, hope all over again. That, right there, is what always kept Jacob on equal grounds with Edward for me. Even Alice tells Bella it is too bad you have to pick between two good things.
Yes, I disagree with Alice on that point, certainly by that time! It also seems odd that Alice, who backed Edward up on holding Bella hostage, should do an about-face. I think that was SM letting a little of herself get in the way of Alice's character. Or maybe Alice was just being diplomatic.
Jacob's actions in NM (to a certain point) I do not question. It did take a strong friend to do for Bella what he did. When Alice says that Bella is choosing between two good things, I think she is partially keeping THAT Jacob in mind, and also partly being sympathetic to Bella, which she can do because she knows the decision she's about to make. Bella's decision never waivered. Alice could be sympathetic, both toward Jacob AND Bella because she knew her favorite brother and best friend still found their happiness in one another.
Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:For me, I don’t wonder how Jake would be if Bella would have chosen a regular human. Jacob giving Bella an out/exit so she can be with Edward proves this for me.
I don't get what you mean here. Jacob gives her no out. He wants her. It is Bella who says, even after realising she loves Jacob, "sorry, I don't want you. I want Edward." Jake has nowhere to go at that point. He has to give in.
I was confused a little about this statement, as well. Violet Sunlight, you said twice that Jacob gave Bella an out and she didn't take it. I'm not really sure where you see her doing this. The only situation I can come up with is at the beginning of Eclipse when he is refusing to talk to her or see her, when they are passing notes back and forth and he essentially tells her to just accept that they cannot be friends anymore. But, I think that is unfair. If there was ever a time when I totally understood Bella's need to make sure Jacob was okay, it was at that time, just after Edward's return when he was still just a friend in pain because of a choice she was making. He hadn't yet shown his propensity for manipulation or refusal to accept decisions. He hadn't yet done anything that threatened their friendship or her relationship with Edward. And, what's more, Edward was still being a bit of a prat about her seeing Jacob for no reason other than his being a shapeshifter. In those few moments, I could totally understand and did completely support Bella trying to mend her relationship with Jacob. Yes, he crossed the line with me when he told Bella at the end of NM that he wouldn't "let her" choose her fate. But, everyone speaks out of anger sometimes and regrets it. That's what I was hoping to see from him at the beginning of Eclipse. Boy was I in for a shock. But, certainly, I don't see that as Jacob giving her an out.
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Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Jazz Girl wrote:Jacob's actions in NM (to a certain point) I do not question. It did take a strong friend to do for Bella what he did. When Alice says that Bella is choosing between two good things, I think she is partially keeping THAT Jacob in mind, and also partly being sympathetic to Bella, which she can do because she knows the decision she's about to make. Bella's decision never waivered. Alice could be sympathetic, both toward Jacob AND Bella because she knew her favorite brother and best friend still found their happiness in one another.
Yes, I had a great deal of sympathy for Jacob in NM. Sure, I didn't like some of the things he said and did, but considering what he was going through, discovering he was a werewolf, etc, I could understand that behaviour and sympathise. Although I don't agree that Alice was thinking about the NM Jacob. After all, she didn't like him from the moment she came back. But I think she was trying to help her friend out. I certainly don't think she would have made the "two good things" comment if Bella had chosen Jacob instead of her brother. She's not as selfless as Edward.
Jazz Girl wrote:Edward was still being a bit of a prat about her seeing Jacob for no reason other than his being a shapeshifter.
I don't think that was ever the most pressing concern he had. He's jealous. Yes, he's worried about her safety as well, but I believe jealousy is also a big motivator. But he sees the pain it causes Bella, and this, coupled with the thought that maybe a dog is better for Bella than "the monster", makes him back down and leave her free to come and go as she pleased.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight »

Greetings Jazz Girl. Thank you for responding to my post. Sorry to you and everyone else, I took so long to respond, things came up and I was delayed.

Firstly, just a friendly reminder my name is Violet Sunlight not Violent Sunlight. No worries, no harm done, I have too much to thank you for anyway. Because, thanks to you, and others like you, who share the same strong opinions about Jacob, I was pushed and challenged to look for the reasons why I love that mongrel. I always knew I loved him, I just never knew how much. Bella only voiced some of the reasons, or she didn’t describe it like I would. Bella and I were too busy loving Edward to be bothered with details. Thank goodness, I did not have to search long or hard. Because, as soon as I put my attention to the task the answer and the reasons came flooding in like a roaring river released from a dam. And I was blown away. :swoon: Yeah, most likely everyone probably had the same answer all along. And I probably heard it too. But it didn’t click for me until you and tornado brought up the BRILLIANT thought of Jacob being like a drug and/or insurance policy for Bella. One day when I have time I will share the whole revelation.

Now, I want to talk about this post.
Violet Sunlight wrote: As for the 1st kiss without permission I throw that under the football game casualties too. Even though she says she did not enjoy it I bet her subconscious did. Because her subconscious and Jacob were always on the same page about their romance. Maybe not on her humanity but definitely their romance and/or potential for romance.
I am sorry you got so upset here and misunderstood me. But, if you look closely at my paragraph I did not pardon the offense because of what I thought Bella’s subconscious desires were. In the 1st line I explained why I pardoned the offense. In the 2nd line I pointed out a side effect of the offense. In the 3rd & 4th line I explained the side effect. I hope this clears things up.

I don’t know if you realize it yet but for Jacob & Bella’s Kiss #1, I share the same position Bella’s father, Charlie has. It is not the end of the world.

By the way, in the Real World, I do believe it is unacceptable and probably illegal to not take Bella’s type of NO for an answer or to impulsively and/or aggressively kiss someone without their permission. Out of respect & safety for everyone, people must be held accountable for their behaviors. After all, in the Real World we never know the extent of someone’s malice. And pray we never have to find out. However, in fairytale we know how far things will go and we know the extent of the intent.

I, agree that Jacob was very wrong to impulsively and aggressively kiss Bella without her permission and especially after she said NO. But, at the graduation party he owned up to the fact that he was out-of-line and wrong and he, in my opinion, humbly apologized for it. And Bella forgave him. So the offense has been pardoned. And like I said before, I share Charlie’s position and choose not to make a big deal about it because after all this is Jacob her best-friend and hero that saved her from her depression, Laurent, drowning, etc. Yes, Jacob was very wrong for doing it, but it only happened once and he humbly owned up to it and apologized for it. And the unintentional hurt (and yes, I said it, unintentional because I am sure he was aiming to get the results of the 2nd kiss) that Jacob caused Bella was very short lived as appose to Edward’s 4-months-pit-of-hell he put Bella in unintentionally. I know Edward’s intention was for Bella to have a normal happy safe human life apart from and his family, but his actions had a horrific turn of events. Not only, was there the pit-of-hell to deal with but there were 2 vampires after her. In my opinion, Edward & Jacob were both deluded. And if she (and I), can forgive the 4-month-pit-of-hell because we love Edward we can certainly forgive Jacob’s short-lived offense as well, because we love him too.

Now we come to the 2nd kiss. He should absolutely, not apologize for the 2nd kiss. For the same reason he should for kiss #1 is the same reason he should not for kiss #2. Just like Bella’s NO has weight, Bella’s YES should carry the same weight.
Let her NO mean NO and her YES mean YES.

Yes, shame on Jacob for deceiving her to win her romantic affections. And shame on Jacob for pursuing Bella while in a committed relationship. And if we are going to pass out shame, then shame on Edward for initially deceiving Bella into thinking he was a harmless human to win her romantic affections. When in fact, he was a very, very thirsty vampire. I know, I keep saying it but if we let Edward off the hook for that we got let Jacob off the hook too.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight »

corona wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:But, Jacob wants to play with the big kids, so he needs to be EQUALLY responsible for his behavior.
So true, in my opinion. If you want to play with the big boys, you have to play by their rules. He can't simply rely on the fact that Bella is going to forgive him because she has guilt and fear and self-knowledge issues. The fact that he needed someone else to correct him and he wasn't going to set any boundaries for himself showed me he wasn't ready for prime-time.

A thought just struck me. Does Jacob ever show anyone any kindness once Edward returns and before the imprinting? I can't recall if he did. He occasionally showed Bella some kindness, but it always seemed calculated. I can't remember anyone else. Everyone was either leeches and bloodsuckers or got a fist in the face.
Jacob can play it's Bella that doesn't understand the rules. Once you put on the uniform no one owes you an apology.

I know it is difficult. If you just take the unintentional hurt/insults off Bella and apply it to Edward only. You will see how truly good he is to our Bella.

Here something heartwarming Jacob does he gives Bella a self made detailed figurine. That we love. Homemade stuff is our favorite. And he kept us warm in the tent.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight »

To Tornado. I am sorry I took so long. I will answer your reply Monday 10/31/11. I promise. Thank you for your patience.

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Violet Sunlight wrote:I don’t know if you realize it yet but for Jacob & Bella’s Kiss #1, I share the same position Bella’s father, Charlie has. It is not the end of the world.
Yes, that was the first time I ever had a problem with Charlie. That he should laugh at the fact that his daughter broke her hand hitting Jacob after he kissed her did not go down well with me. I take comfort from the fact that Billy Burke shared this opinion, from what I heard, anyway. Admittedly, Charlie did say later that Bella shouldn't have had to hit a boy who kissed her when she didn't want him to, but I think laughing about it and congratulating Jake was disgraceful. If my father had done that I would have disowned him.
Violet Sunlight wrote:By the way, in the Real World, I do believe it is unacceptable and probably illegal to not take Bella’s type of NO for an answer or to impulsively and/or aggressively kiss someone without their permission. Out of respect & safety for everyone, people must be held accountable for their behaviors. After all, in the Real World we never know the extent of someone’s malice. And pray we never have to find out. However, in fairytale we know how far things will go and we know the extent of the intent.
While some things are acceptable in a fairytale world that are not acceptable in the real world this one can and does occur in the real world on a regular basis and we do have to be careful with those. There are plenty of girls who have been in this kind of situation. The likelihood of it occurring in someone's life is high. So labelling this as acceptable because it is part of a fairy tale when it is so common in the real world is a bit dangerous.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I, agree that Jacob was very wrong to impulsively and aggressively kiss Bella without her permission and especially after she said NO. But, at the graduation party he owned up to the fact that he was out-of-line and wrong and he, in my opinion, humbly apologized for it. And Bella forgave him. So the offense has been pardoned.
Yes, it is true he did apologise to her for it, and that was good.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And like I said before, I share Charlie’s position and choose not to make a big deal about it because after all this is Jacob her best-friend and hero that saved her from her depression, Laurent, drowning, etc. Yes, Jacob was very wrong for doing it, but it only happened once and he humbly owned up to it and apologized for it. And the unintentional hurt (and yes, I said it, unintentional because I am sure he was aiming to get the results of the 2nd kiss) that Jacob caused Bella was very short lived as appose to Edward’s 4-months-pit-of-hell he put Bella in unintentionally. I know Edward’s intention was for Bella to have a normal happy safe human life apart from and his family, but his actions had a horrific turn of events. Not only, was there the pit-of-hell to deal with but there were 2 vampires after her. In my opinion, Edward & Jacob were both deluded. And if she (and I), can forgive the 4-month-pit-of-hell because we love Edward we can certainly forgive Jacob’s short-lived offense as well, because we love him too.
Seven months, actually! ;)
Violet Sunlight wrote:Now we come to the 2nd kiss. He should absolutely, not apologize for the 2nd kiss. For the same reason he should for kiss #1 is the same reason he should not for kiss #2. Just like Bella’s NO has weight, Bella’s YES should carry the same weight.
Let her NO mean NO and her YES mean YES.
I'm sorry, there's no way I can agree with you here. He manipulated her into agreeing to kiss him by threatening to kill himself, playing the guilt card to perfection. Although it resulted in her recognising her feelings for him, as I said earlier, the end does not justify the means. You don't make threats, either to your life or someone else's, in order to make someone do what you want them to do. And, as Edward pointed out later, it was purely manipulation on Jacob's part. He was not serious. And he would have kissed her at that point anyway, if she hadn't given him permission. He wasn't nobly standing there, thinking of self sacrifice, when Bella asked him to kiss her. He was skillfully putting her into a position where he knew she would give in. It was nothing but deceit.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Yes, shame on Jacob for deceiving her to win her romantic affections. And shame on Jacob for pursuing Bella while in a committed relationship. And if we are going to pass out shame, then shame on Edward for initially deceiving Bella into thinking he was a harmless human to win her romantic affections. When in fact, he was a very, very thirsty vampire. I know, I keep saying it but if we let Edward off the hook for that we got let Jacob off the hook too.
Edward never gave Bella the impression that he was harmless. He warned her constantly that she should be staying away from him. He told her that they shouldn't be friends, and that he was dangerous. He couldn't very well tell her why, because humans aren't allowed to know about vampires. Yes, he was too weak to stay away, but fortunately, he was strong enough to control himself. And putting Bella through the "pit of hell" was part of him trying to find the strength to do what he felt was right and stay away. He just had to wait until he was strong enough to do that. Unfortunately, by that time it was too late to do that without hurting Bella too.

And of course, as usual, after putting Bella through that, Edward does what Edward always does: apologise, whereas Jake just says, "I'm glad I made you kiss me and I'd do it again." Not good. In spite of the result of the kiss he should have apologised for deceiving her like that. He did not come close to doing that, and made it clear that he didn't think he needed to, even after he admitted to deliberately manipulating her into it. I do not believe that this is the action of a good person. A good person apologises for the actions that hurt another, regardless of how good the motivations behind that action might have been. This is what Edward always does.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Jacob can play it's Bella that doesn't understand the rules. Once you put on the uniform no one owes you an apology.
Jacob is still required, by virtue of being a good person, to treat Bella a certain way, especially as he professes to love her so much.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I know it is difficult. If you just take the unintentional hurt/insults off Bella and apply it to Edward only. You will see how truly good he is to our Bella.
Yes, but what hurts Edward does hurt Bella. To see him in pain is painful to her. So every time Jacob hurts Edward he does hurt Bella. And he knows it. That she asks him not to torture Edward with his thoughts is evidence of this. As I said earlier, his reply to this (which is fortunately to acquiesce to her request) is barely civil. He knows what he's done has hurt her. And as he continues to insult and belittle Edward (and Bella herself for loving Edward) he can be in no doubt that it is continuing to hurt her. He just thinks that anything is justifiable if it works. There may be some people (I gather you are one) who agree that the ends justify the means. I do not.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Here something heartwarming Jacob does he gives Bella a self made detailed figurine. That we love. Homemade stuff is our favorite. And he kept us warm in the tent.
Yes, it's good that he could do some nice things, although I don't think there was anything particularly selfless and noble about him keeping Bella warm. He didn't exactly find that an onerous task!
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona »

Violet Sunlight,

I suppose a primary dividing line on the Jacob issue is how much you believe his efforts to save her life are pure versus how much he is just wanting to win her affections. If you want to argue the "life saver" side of Jacob, you have no better advocate on your side than Stephenie herself.

In my opinion, though, that just isn't how SM wrote Jacob. Jacob comes off, to me, as being confused about those two aspects, Bella's life versus Bella's affections, and eventually can't tell the difference.

In my opinion, again, Jacob's obsession with Bella ended up being the primary driver of his actions, with Bella's life being the basis for his extreme behavior. Jacob's inconsistencies indicated to me that he didn't want to believe in Bella's love for Edward, and vice versa, because it destroyed the primary excuse for his actions.

The bracelet he gives Bella was very smart of him. I thought it was a very shrewd move while at the same time demonstrating his affections. It was a good move. Just prior to that, though, he started off aggressive, then tried to give Bella his gift, and Bella rebuffs him. Then he does his puppy dog routine and hits her weak side by looking all hurt and accusing her of wanting to be with other friends (flashback to the motorcycle scene).

Everything about him seems calculated to me. Note that his apology means nothing, since he forces a kiss again by threatening to commit suicide. When he says he is sorry, he is really saying he is sorry that his tactics didn't work.

Actually, he admits to Bella later after the imprinting that he wasn't loving her the right way.

One more thing, and I know this is going to be a bone of contention; look at what he does to keep Nessie in Forks. Jacob phases in front of Charlie. This is after learning the rule about what happens to humans that know about vampires, and after Bella has become one. Look at the extraordinary risks he was willing to take, when not only was someone's life NOT on the line, but in which he was actually risking a life. Why didn't Jacob take the same kinds of risks for Bella's life? It always seemed to me that there were possibilities of "saving" Bella that didn't end up with her as his girlfriend, but he was unwilling to countenance any tactics that might have messed that up. Maybe he could have created suspicion in Charlie, or in other people, trying to drive the Cullens out of town. But then, Bella might have gone with them. That would have been very risky as well, but if the bottom line is Bella's life, then I would think that would have been an option. But, he didn't. All of the "risks" that Jacob was taking for Bella ended up with her being with him. Just like all of the risks (including Charlie's life!) that he took for Nessie ended up with her being with him.

It isn't that Jacob is "bad", it's just that I wish he had taken some stock of his life post-imprinting. I don't see any grand epiphany for him. When he is miserable, he makes everyone around him miserable. When he is happy, no one else matters. I don't see him as being very likable, and please don't eat his bag of chips or you'll wind up with a bloody nose.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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