Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Jazz Girl
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl »

Violet Sunlight~ My apologies for misquoting your name. I've gone back and fixed my post so that it is correct. I had several reactions to your post...
Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:I don’t know if you realize it yet but for Jacob & Bella’s Kiss #1, I share the same position Bella’s father, Charlie has. It is not the end of the world.
Yes, that was the first time I ever had a problem with Charlie. That he should laugh at the fact that his daughter broke her hand hitting Jacob after he kissed her did not go down well with me. I take comfort from the fact that Billy Burke shared this opinion, from what I heard, anyway. Admittedly, Charlie did say later that Bella shouldn't have had to hit a boy who kissed her when she didn't want him to, but I think laughing about it and congratulating Jake was disgraceful. If my father had done that I would have disowned him.
I could never ever understand Charlie's reaction to what amounted to his daughter's assault, ESPECIALLY as a law enforcement officer. At the very least, he should have immediately rebuked Jacob for his behavior and set him straight about the laws of every state in the US. What I much would have preferred to see was his eyes being opened to what was Jacob's true nature all the way through Eclipse and an apology to Bella AND Edward, and perhaps even a come-to-Jesus meeting with Jacob and Billy.
Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:By the way, in the Real World, I do believe it is unacceptable and probably illegal to not take Bella’s type of NO for an answer or to impulsively and/or aggressively kiss someone without their permission. Out of respect & safety for everyone, people must be held accountable for their behaviors. After all, in the Real World we never know the extent of someone’s malice. And pray we never have to find out. However, in fairytale we know how far things will go and we know the extent of the intent.
While some things are acceptable in a fairytale world that are not acceptable in the real world this one can and does occur in the real world on a regular basis and we do have to be careful with those. There are plenty of girls who have been in this kind of situation. The likelihood of it occurring in someone's life is high. So labelling this as acceptable because it is part of a fairy tale when it is so common in the real world is a bit dangerous.
Tornado wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Now we come to the 2nd kiss. He should absolutely, not apologize for the 2nd kiss. For the same reason he should for kiss #1 is the same reason he should not for kiss #2. Just like Bella’s NO has weight, Bella’s YES should carry the same weight.
Let her NO mean NO and her YES mean YES.
I'm sorry, there's no way I can agree with you here. He manipulated her into agreeing to kiss him by threatening to kill himself, playing the guilt card to perfection. Although it resulted in her recognising her feelings for him, as I said earlier, the end does not justify the means. You don't make threats, either to your life or someone else's, in order to make someone do what you want them to do. And, as Edward pointed out later, it was purely manipulation on Jacob's part. He was not serious. And he would have kissed her at that point anyway, if she hadn't given him permission. He wasn't nobly standing there, thinking of self sacrifice, when Bella asked him to kiss her. He was skillfully putting her into a position where he knew she would give in. It was nothing but deceit.
I cannot say this any better. Fairy tale or biography, real life or science fiction, even hinting at the idea that any kind of physical contact with another person against their wishes and without their freely-given consent is absolutely not acceptable. And, consent is not consent if there is emotional or psychological manipulation or duress involved. Bella would not have said yes if Jacob had not made her believe he was going to let himself be killed. So, in reality, her answer was still a very emphatic no, which was proven as soon as Jacob galloped off to play with the rest of his pack, leaving Bella to deal with the fallout of his manipulation all on her own, and she immediately turned to Edward to try and make-up for her actions.

I'm also still interested in the "out/exit" that you saw Bella refuse from Jacob. Was I correct in it being the initial refusal to speak with her after Edward's return?

In the end, I couldn't ever reconcile the two versions of Jacob that were out there; the selfish manipulative adolescent that I saw, and the supposed great leader and friend that Bella was willing to risk the love of her existence for. When everyone was saying that he was a good option, that he represented a different kind of good life that Bella could have, that he was her "human" path, I honestly can't see it. I'm sure that there is good in Jacob. I actually truly want to see it. But, it never truly materializes. He has moments when it feels like he will do the right thing, when it feels like he's finally stepping outside of himself. But, as Corona points out, the motivations for what he does, even after he cannot continue pursuing Bella any longer, tend to be just as self-serving as they were before, just with a different object of his obsession.
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Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

corona wrote:It isn't that Jacob is "bad", it's just that I wish he had taken some stock of his life post-imprinting. I don't see any grand epiphany for him. When he is miserable, he makes everyone around him miserable. When he is happy, no one else matters. I don't see him as being very likable, and please don't eat his bag of chips or you'll wind up with a bloody nose.
Yes, I agree. I believe that Jacob is good, but it's difficult to continue with this belief as he, as far as we know, never acknowledges that some of his behaviour, regardless of motivation, was wrong. This is the kind of behaviour I expect from a good person. There is enough evidence in Twilight and New Moon that he is good, but the way things are at the end of BD I am left with a Jacob that seems to have changed from the good guy he was then into a guy who has let bitterness and self-righteousness turn him into something else, certainly someone very selfish. Because of some suggestions in the latter stages of BD I think that there has been some kind of epiphany, as corona suggested, but because we didn't get to see it I can only hope that's the case. I cannot really like Jacob until I'm sure he has recognised the things he did that were wrong, just as Edward and Bella both took responsibility for the wrongs things that they did, owned up to it, apologised, and moved on.
corona wrote:Maybe he could have created suspicion in Charlie, or in other people, trying to drive the Cullens out of town. But then, Bella might have gone with them.
I really don't think he could do that, as it would have broken the treaty, and as the wolves were the "good guys", they couldn't do that. Sam would have never allowed it.
Jazz Girl wrote:At the very least, he should have immediately rebuked Jacob for his behavior and set him straight about the laws of every state in the US.
Yes, I was expecting that too, that it would be a watershed moment that made Charlie see just how far Jake could go into unacceptable territory. That he didn't do that shows how extreme his bias against Edward was. No one could be as bad as Edward. Not only that, because Jacob's dad is a friend of his, and probably because he'd known Jake since he was a baby, he finds it difficult to think of his behaviour as anything other than just a young kid being impulsive.
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Violet Sunlight
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight »

Sorry, I messed up the quote feature. But, I think it is still legible. I have left my mark **VS** on what I wrote.
Tornado wrote:
corona wrote:A thought just struck me. Does Jacob ever show anyone any kindness once Edward returns and before the imprinting? I can't recall if he did. He occasionally showed Bella some kindness, but it always seemed calculated. I can't remember anyone else. Everyone was either leeches and bloodsuckers or got a fist in the face.

**VS** Greetings Tornado. Thank you for being patient with me. Sorry about the long, long, long post.
Okay. Dear Corona, I think I answered this before but I have more reasons. Jacob shows kindness to everyone who is not trying to kill Bella. This is a list of people he shows kindness to before and/or after being a wolf (excluding the Cullens) though he eventually does that too: Bella of course, especially her father Charlie; Bella’s teenage High School friends, his pack, especially his best-friends Quil & Embry and later Leah & Seth, Little Claire, Emily, Kim. Sam when Jacob becomes Alpha he explains how he would not dream to fight his brother for the Head Alpha Spot that so rightfully belongs by my beloved mongrel. Come to think of it, I think he was rude to one human the whole Saga and that was Mike Newton, at the movies, when the two boys shook hands they had a mini contest and then after the movie and Mike threw up he said “Movie too much for you?” Jacob asked heartlessly. I think that was just regular teenage testosterone behavior. I actually think Mike started the hard hand shake just like he intimidated Tyler and Eric to wait to ask Bella to the dance he thought he could do it to Jacob. And I am glad he did it. Edward is gone and Mike with his inappropriate thoughts of Bella concerned me a little. Bella has no brother or young male relative to put Mike in check. But, my Jacob is no chump. So, this is it. I hope I got everything.
Before I begin, Thanks to you Tornado, again, I have had another epiphany, but it is actually due to your next post not this one. Which, I plan to respond to. But, I need my epiphany here too. In your next post you talk about the “end not justifying the means”, and that got me thinking would I consent to something bad for something good. That did not sit well with me. So I pondered on that. And the word WAR came forth. But I will elaborate on that word in your next post. But, the word WAR was there. And what followed WAR was SOLDIER. And then came my epiphany. I do not need an elaborate story to describe the reason why I&Bella, Stephenie Meyers, Charlie and others in and out of Twilight, recognize and/or love this mongrel for who he really is. Thanks to you again I can sum it all up in one statement. Here it is, JACOB IS THE FAITHFUL LOYAL DOG OF BELLA’S STITCHED UP HEART & THE COURAGES HEROIC SOLDIER OF & FOR HER HUMAN LIFE. :swoon: :clap: :D And also, I agree with Edward, when he said my beloved mongrel left his mark. You got that right, I strongly believe, every stitch on Bella’s heart has his paw prints all over it. Every laughter they shared, all the fun they ever had and thier love, was skillfully etched on the most valuable posesion he ever had the privilege to beheld, her heart. And He was the master surgeon, that was in the right place at the right time. And if I were to leave twilightlexicon.com right now and never return, (which I'm not leaving) I would leave with a humongous smile on my face, and say “it was well worth it”, to visit and join this site. I now can enjoy a new dimension of Twilight I never dreamed was there. Because I was too busy loving Edward. And more questions have been answered for me as well. I never knew why I loved Eclipse more than the other books I enjoyed immensely until today 10/31/11. My favorite types of movies and/or books are the kind where an animal, like a dog or horse comes across someone that touches the animal’s heart and no matter what diplomatic policies are in his environment that try to separate them the animal and person overcome all the obstacles and stay together. And my other kind of favorite movie and/or books is the courageous Soldiers/Hero and especially the a lone Soldier, going to save his beloved or going to save a stranger. And the more of an underdog (no pun intended) the hero is, and the higher the stakes are stacked the more I love the movie and/or book.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I excuse everything Jacob did in Eclipse and after once Bella did not take the out/exit Jacob offered her. He gave her an out before the letter writing and in the letter writing. She said no. She wants to stay on the Jacob team. The particular reason is not important to Jacob, the point is Bella said yes I want to stay on.
She wanted to be around him, but she still made it clear that it was not for the same reasons he wanted her around. She made it quite clear that Edward was who she wanted, and that she only wanted Jacob around as a friend, not a lover. Now perhaps you think that the fact that she did love Jacob renders this meaningless, but it must be remembered that she still chose Edward, not Jacob. So what she said to Jacob at these earlier points about wanting Edward instead of him still stands. Should she have been firmer with him? Definitely. But he still was way too pushy and aggressive with her, playing on her tendency to respond to guilt trips (Alice regularly uses this on her too).


**VS**Now, getting back to your quote. This is where my pup made a huge mistake, and again he did it for Bella. His silence before and during the letter was proof to me that he was going to wash his hands of the whole thing (clean break). But, my immature pup loves our lovely Bella more than his sanity and a whole lot of other things and can’t help himself. And for whatever reason my pup has not received the Memo that says “The Soul Card trumps the The Heart Card every time”. But, I know my pup all-to-well, even if he would have received the Memo he would have still tried to defy the laws of physics, and all to his undoing, again. Because, our lovely Bella’s stitched up heart has become a beacon to his horse-size heart. And the beeping sound is louder than anything that is within him. And he can choose to leave all he wants but as soon as our lovely Bella turns on the beacon we know, that the battle was lost even before it got started. So what is about to happen in Eclipse is a hard lesson my pup will have to learn. But, in the end for his good. I know you all understand how I feel but I will always be, ever so, grateful to Stephenie Meyers for not killing my beloved mongrel. The story would not have been my favorite and when the day came, that I would realize the loss, I would have been devastated. And in turn, would have had to step away from the entire series for the sake of my sanity.
Violet Sunlight wrote:He made his intentions clear he will not split Bella the best-friend and Bella the potential girlfriend. Jacob also made his fighting styles evident with his poor treatment of Alice and Edward in New Moon. She still said she wants to stay on. All righty then, let the games begin. As a matter of fact, he gave her another out in Eclipse, when Jacob said take me as I am or leave me. Again, she said no we are friends. I am not choosing, I am keeping you and Edward.
But again, she still made it clear that the reasons she wanted them around were different. She wanted Edward as the lover, Jacob as the friend. Ultimately, this is how it worked out.


**VS**Bella and Jacob were both very wrong in entering into any understanding where they were under the illusion the other would comply. Bella was not going to be the romantic girlfriend Jacob strived for. And Jacob was not going to split his best-friend Bella and potential romantic Bella. The crazy thing is, that they were under the assumption that the more you repeat the same thing the more likely it would be that the other would surrender. They both played the lotto and hope to hit big and loss. Thank goodness, SM thought of a way, in my opinion, to peacefully and happily resolve the matter. SM is a genius. Her solution works nicely for me, and in my opinion is what made the series a phenomena.
Violet Sunlight wrote:So the trio gets a pass on all verbal and physical painful actions.
I don't agree with that. They certainly all made massive mistakes, but then, we're all human, if I can put it that way! ;) . But I can forgive both Bella and Edward more readily than Jacob because they acknowledged their mistakes, whereas Jacob just said, "I was right and I'd do it again." That's wrong. While he was right that Bella loved him, and I understand that he wanted to save her from "the monster", his behaviour was still way too extreme. He needed to acknowledge that he pushed too hard and hurt a lot of people in the process. He never even comes close to doing that.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And since, we agree that Jacob’s pushiness and aggressiveness towards Bella is due to the time constrictions on her life I don’t need an apology for that either.
I did not say it was only due to that. It may have been a mitigating factor, but the real reason for that is Jacob's self-righteousness. He should not have been as aggressive as he was. Lack of time does not excuse someone's poor behaviour. It may help us understand why he did what he did, but, being a good person, he still should have realised that he went too far and said sorry for that.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Also, you point out Jacob doesn’t trust Bella’s judgment. That is true. But, since we don’t call Edward out on it we can’t call Jacob on it.
While Edward may have some troubles with Bella's judgement at some stages, he then apologises for not trusting her judgement and accepts it, such as he did in the bedroom scene in Eclipse. "I'm going to be more reasonable and trust your judgement. If you say it's safe, then I'll believe you." Jacob never does this with anyone once he becomes a werewolf.
Violet Sunlight wrote:As for the 1st kiss without permission I throw that under the football game casualties too. Even though she says she did not enjoy it I bet her subconscious did. Because her subconscious and Jacob were always on the same page about their romance. Maybe not on her humanity but definitely their romance and/or potential for romance.
I agree with Jazz Girl here. There is no evidence (and we are inside Bella's head for this kiss) that she found that first kiss anything other than an assault. And nothing excuses any guy from doing something like that against a girl's will, whether she has feelings for him or not. That's like a rapist saying, "She agreed to come back to my place, so she knew it was going to happen." And it is only a step up from that. That kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable.


**VS** I think we are going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to Jacob’s extreme behavior style. He is a Soldier fighting to save her and a Loving Dog trying to win her romantic affections. The dog within him won but she had to let him go because her soul belongs to Edward. And when the tired, battered Soldier within him realized he had lost, he yet again surprised me and graciously, gave Bella his support to her bizarre request of having him support her decision to give up her precious human life and also support of celebration her death date. The Cullens are not ending the life of a cat they are ending a precious human life, Bella’s life, our beloved mongrel’s heart. The heart that he so skillfully stitched that bear his paw print stitches. But, like I have been saying and believed always, this is nor mere mongrel. This is a state of the art, hero. The rarest, kind. Then at the wedding, my beloved defeated mongrel is saying goodbye because he understands for Bella to have her happily ever after with Edward she must be changed. And he is well aware that the wedding is the nail in her coffin. And he has to say goodbye to his romantic love and his best-friend forever. Because her heart beats are numbered.
And to his horror finds out that not only will her life be ended by a monster, not only will she experience an excruciating change because of the monster, oh yes she will die torturously at her honeymoon at the hands of the very same monster who is taking her life. And mongrel had enough and his sanity cracked. My beloved mongrel was to kind and generous and soft with Bella. But my pup is no ordinary pup he is loyal to Bella’s beating heart and even to it’s bizarre actions to end itself.

And I would like to take this time to remind all, that Jacob generously gave up another part that was rooted deep within him for Bella, his zero-tolerance of his mortal enemies at the infamous Motorcycle Scene.
So when Jacob began to give part of the core of his being he again was too kind to our lovely Bella and graciously bestowed tolerance to:
1. monsters that have robbed him of his position in Bella’s life
2. monsters that have helped Bella schedule her death.
3. monsters that have been the Mortal Enemy of his people since as far back as they can remember.

The very core of Jacob’s beliefs that make him who he is. And this is only, the beginning, of what our lovely Bella will ask of him. And thank goodness he does not spare his cordialness, because Bella & I know we are stretching him too far already. And, like I have learned on this site. And as Bella & I learned long ago, as long as her heart is beating, try as Edward might, our lovely Bella gets hurt. And Edward loves Bella so much, that every time she is in bloody pieces on a hospital Bed or on the floor, he becomes almost as fragile as she does. Bella’s stitched up heart needs our loyal, courageous, beloved, mongrel, to the end, to the bloody end. Until Bella’s heart stops beating. We will never, give him up before then. And we make no apology for it.
And you say I should not forgive his extreme behavior. No. I beg to differ, in my opinion, Jacob was not extreme enough. His weakness is indulging Bella’s every whim. My beloved mongrel was much to kind to the monsters that were before him. To offer even the sound of his voice to them was more than cordial. My beloved mongrel was far to kind, far to kind. And this is only a part of what my new epiphany has shown me.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Again for me, Jacob is a good person. I can’t forget how he chose to be with Bella at her worst. How many teenagers or adults would want the responsibility of someone’s mental well being? Even with a pretty face? Edward only had to deal with his hang-ups not Bella’s.
It's not a hard ask when you have a huge crush on them already. And Edward had to deal with Bella's feelings for Jacob. That was a lot for him to deal with. As usual, he blamed himself.

**VS**I strongly disagree. I know, before I had all of my epiphanies, for the sake of my sanity I downplayed her pit-of-hell period and of course Jacob’s love was dormant in my heart. I did not want to face what she faced. And what’s crazy, Renesmee’s birth and Bella’s vampirazation felt more comfortable to me than her 4+months in the pit-of-hell did. Mercifully, SM, spared us the 4 months by naming the pages with the days of the month. Another, confirmation of the seriousness of the situation. And with all that, I still can’t handle it to well. Soon after, SM graciously introduced what would be, not only be her hero but her best-friend. And the best-friend is a huge gracious bonus. I am already awed at the hero.

What my beloved pup did, was no small thing. He was the firefighter, that went into the burning building, when her father helplessly could not go in. And everyone else ran the opposite way. Then he was the hospital, the physical and mental therapist and her best-friend. All, before he romantically ever loved her. If this is the state of the art quality effort that his 16 yr old crush offers. Imagine if she would have let him fully love her, like his woman. Talk about not being able to bear it all.

And what makes me angry is, where in the world is everyone one else who had a crush on her, when she was her 100% best? I’ll tell you where, they were a Big Disappointing No Show. I remember all these hard-core-crushed-pursers lining up to ask her if she can take them to a dance. Now, you know they mean business when they are shameless enough to ask her if she can take them to a dance. I wanted to say “hey, geniuses, here’s a clue, why don’t you invite her to something she wants to do without there being a benefit for you”. Never mind, I forgot you guys are just ordinary self-centered, happy-go-lucky teenagers, who I am pretty sure have both healthy parents (which my pup did not have) and live in a comfy house (again which my pup did not have).
Here is the list, from the least to the greatest of these average happy go lucky teenaged pursuers:
1. Eric- Now, I don’t remember too much of him. But, I remember, after getting Mike Newton’s permission he was confident enough to go ask Bella out to a dance that was meant for girls to ask the guy out. But, seemed a little shy. Okay. No problem. I’m not saying they had to do what Jacob did. Actually, Jacob did not have to do what Jacob did. But, at least they could have tried to do something to put a smile on her face. But, no he kept his safe distance from Bella. But I don’t fault him because he probably knew he wasn’t qualified and too scared to get involved. After all he just had a crush on her. So the best thing he could have done was stay away.
2. Tyler-Now, this guy makes me as mad and sometimes more mad than Mike does. Not only, did he shamelessly do what Eric did but this character actually almost killed my Bella driving recklessly on ice, and if it were not for Bella&I beloved Edward we would have been a dent in his car. And this guy was the cocky one, who was so filled with guilt for the accident, that had deluded himself into thinking he was taking Bella to the prom, when knowing full well, she was in a committed relationship with Edward. Why couldn’t he have used his cockiness to good use and said something like this to Chief Swan “Hey, Chief Swan, I know Bella is not feeling well and I want to help your family in any way I can, maybe chores or errands to help out”. And I would have thought, this guy is pretty cool. Way better than Mike Newton. But. No. His cockiness for Bella has disappeared due to her horrid condition. Fine, who needs him anyway?
3. Mike Newton-Now, ironically Bella described him as a little puppy following her around everywhere in school. But, this guy gave me the creeps. And this was before I read Midnight Sun and found out how big of a creep he was, with all his inappropriate thoughts. This guy missed every opportunity to be with Bella. Even though, I did not like him, Bella did, this guy could have been her best-friend. He was in school with her since Twilight and he got her a part-time job at his parent’s store. Before the pit-of-hell. And like Edward said he got Bella to talk a lot. So I would have thought that this guy would have at least made some sort of effort to show that he cared. But, No. This guy did what everyone else did. Look the other way. Fine, good ridden. This guy is just a sloppy imitation of my real pup anyway.

My pup could not and would not back down. His impecable lineage is one of the many things that made him a state of the art Protector/Carer for Human Life. And more so when it was his beloved. I will say it again, My pup is strong enough and sensitive enough to be around the sick and hurting. Even when everyone else is to scared or unqualified. Even when his hurt is hurting terribly, his strenght does not falter. Obviously, anyone can be around the healthy and the beautiful. But, it takes a special someone to see past the horridness of sickness. And not even my Beloved Edward is strong enough to endure and stay strong at the same time. That takes humanity.

And this makes me wonder if Bella would have walked into Forks High School for the first time in her horrid condition. Unable, to keep conversation well, would my beloved Edward pursue her. Because vampires are attracted to extraordinarily beautiful people. And Bella was beautiful. Edward said it there is a long line of people jocking for his spot. But would her soul be enough to lure him. I wonder.

But, I don't wonder about my beloved mongrel, would have done if Bella's first day in his High School he would have seen her in her horrid condition. What seemed like the impossible for many, seemed all to clear and simple to my pup. He is amazing.
Last edited by Violet Sunlight on Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Jazz Girl
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl »

Tornado wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:At the very least, he should have immediately rebuked Jacob for his behavior and set him straight about the laws of every state in the US.
Yes, I was expecting that too, that it would be a watershed moment that made Charlie see just how far Jake could go into unacceptable territory. That he didn't do that shows how extreme his bias against Edward was. No one could be as bad as Edward. Not only that, because Jacob's dad is a friend of his, and probably because he'd known Jake since he was a baby, he finds it difficult to think of his behaviour as anything other than just a young kid being impulsive.
As I said, I could not reconcile Charlie's behavior at all. Part of me understood his need to see Edward as the bad guy, to look for Jacob to be hero. Charlie had no understanding of the circumstances surrounding Edward's disappearance, no realization of the level of devotion Edward had for his daughter. All he saw was Bella's reaction Edward's leaving, the way she hurt because of it, and the way Jacob stepped up to be there for her. But, I also think that part of him realizes that, because Jacob stepped up, it kept him from having to take action, doing anything to try and deal with Bella's depression. Yes, he still had to monitor her and stay involved. But, her relationship with Jacob and the way it engaged her in life again allowed him to say she was healing and step back. So, it was no wonder that he averted his eyes to the realities of Jacob's behavior. But, in reality, I always wondered exactly where the impetus for Charlie's behavior came from, what possibly inspired his reactions.
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Violet Sunlight
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight »

Tornado wrote:Okay, this is going to be long, so you might want to get a cup of coffee! :roll:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Ok. For me, Jacob’s actions prove to me how thick his vampire prejudices are.
While I recognise that a lot of prejudice comes into play when it comes to Jacob's behaviour, this is still not enough to excuse him. He is, as is repeatedly said, a very good person. Seth manages to treat the vampires well. Jealousy is the most likely thing at play here. But, because he is a good person, I do expect a certain level of good behaviour from him, which we don't usually get by the time we reach Eclipse.


Hello Tornado.

Seth tolerates the cullens for the newborn fight, not before. And becomes Edward"s friend after the win.

Seth has the luxury of bestowing the Cullens not only tolerance but cordialness because it is not Leah or Sue dieing next week. It is just the nice girl Jacob loves.

But a good question would be, what if it was Leah or Sue dieing next week by the vampires and even with their consent. And not to mention, just loosing his father last year.

I know where his Tolerance and Cordialness and even support would be.

It would be a distant memory.

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Re: Explorations

Post by VirginiaMay »

Holy cow.... where have I been the last forty or so pages?!?! Great, great conversation! I soooo do not have time to reply to every point that I would like to, but I thought I'd let you guys know I'm reading along and may pop in soon. (I'll try anyway.) Keep on keepin' on!! ;-)

-Ginnie


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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Okay, you might need a packed lunch for this! :roll:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Okay. Dear Corona, I think I answered this before but I have more reasons. Jacob shows kindness to everyone who is not trying to kill Bella. This is a list of people he shows kindness to before and/or after being a wolf (excluding the Cullens) though he eventually does that too: Bella of course, especially her father Charlie; Bella’s teenage High School friends, his pack, especially his best-friends Quil & Embry and later Leah & Seth, Little Claire, Emily, Kim.
Actually, we don't know what Jake's reaction would be to any of her school friends because, apart from Mike at the movie, he never interacts with any of them. There is no scene in which he engages in conversation with any of them apart from Mike. And as you pointed out yourself, at that point he is less than polite. And I do not believe he was mean to Mike because he was trying to defend Bella from his nefarious advances. He was just showing off. He was actually quite rude, and stooped to Mike's level by engaging in that way.
The only other time he ever interacted with anyone else was the school principal, to whom he was also rude.
Of course he is going to be polite to Charlie. He is Bella's dad and his dad's friend. It won't do much good to be rude to him. And he's hardly going to be mean to his friends, is he?
Violet Sunlight wrote:Sam when Jacob becomes Alpha he explains how he would not dream to fight his brother for the Head Alpha Spot that so rightfully belongs by my beloved mongrel.
Unfortunately it seems that Jake's reasons for this are less than noble. As he says himself, "I didn't want to be in a pack, much less its leader." The real reason he refuses to take the position of Alpha when Sam offers it to him is that he doesn't want the responsibility.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Come to think of it, I think he was rude to one human the whole Saga and that was Mike Newton
And, as I said above, that's because he didn't talk to any normal humans, apart from Charlie and the principal. One he's going to be polite to, the other he wasn't polite to at all. So of the three people outside the supernatural world who he speaks with in the saga he is rude to two of them.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Now, getting back to your quote. This is where my pup made a huge mistake, and again he did it for Bella.
Partially for Bella. Partially for himself. He had plenty of self interest in keeping her away from Edward. He knew it would mean that he got her instead.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Bella and Jacob were both very wrong in entering into any understanding where they were under the illusion the other would comply.
Yes, and this is where the difference lies between their ways of responding to this error of judgement. Bella acknowledges that she hurt everyone because of her actions, causing her guilt and regret. Jacob just says that he's glad he did it and he'd do it again, refusing to acknowledge that he did anything wrong.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Her solution works nicely for me, and in my opinion is what made the series a phenomena.
Actually, large numbers of fans have huge problems with Jake imprinting on Renesmee, which is what I think you're referring to. I don't have a problem with it, but a lot of people on all teams were unhappy with it.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I think we are going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to Jacob’s extreme behavior style.
We are.
Violet Sunlight wrote: He is a Soldier fighting to save her and a Loving Dog trying to win her romantic affections.
Even soldiers have standards of behaviour. The saying "All's fair in love and war" is not true. Some things are not allowed in wars. This is why people are tried for war crimes. Jacob's inability to accept that he committed any wrong is refusing to play by the rules of behaviour which we all share. I certainly try and follow these rules. These rules say that we should apologise for misdemeanors. Jacob does not get an out on behaving appropriately just because he is a soldier fighting a valiant fight. His fighting is too dirty to qualify on that score, anyway.
Violet Sunlight wrote:The Cullens are not ending the life of a cat they are ending a precious human life, Bella’s life, our beloved mongrel’s heart.
That is, of course, a matter of opinion. That it is Jacob's opinion, and even Edward's (until the events of BD) is clear. But vampires do live. When it comes to Twilight's vampires prejudice is, in the end, the only thing that decrees that they do not live. It is hard to call Carlisle's life, for example, anything other than life lived to the fullest for the most noble of reasons.
Violet Sunlight wrote:But, like I have been saying and believed always, this is nor mere mongrel. This is a state of the art, hero. The rarest, kind. Then at the wedding, my beloved defeated mongrel is saying goodbye because he understands for Bella to have her happily ever after with Edward she must be changed. And he is well aware that the wedding is the nail in her coffin. And he has to say goodbye to his romantic love and his best-friend forever. Because her heart beats are numbered.
And to his horror finds out that not only will her life be ended by a monster, not only will she experience an excruciating change because of the monster, oh yes she will die torturously at her honeymoon at the hands of the very same monster who is taking her life. And mongrel had enough and his sanity cracked.
I agree with you on this, although others here will not. I believe Jacob showed up at the wedding with the best intentions, but was unable to control himself.
Violet Sunlight wrote:monsters that have robbed him of his position in Bella’s life
That's definitely a matter of opinion. It could far more easily be argued that he was robbing Edward of his position in Bella's life. After all, Jacob is the one trying to steal her away.
Violet Sunlight wrote:monsters that have helped Bella schedule her death.
Again, debatable, as per my above remarks.
Violet Sunlight wrote:monsters that have been the Mortal Enemy of his people since as far back as they can remember.
But monsters that his own grandfather made a treaty with because he recognised their behaviour was inconsistent with normal cold ones. They would not have had the opportunity to make the treaty if the Cullens had been normal vampires. There were enough of them to destroy Ephraim's pack.
Violet Sunlight wrote:The very core of Jacob’s beliefs that make him who he is. And this is only, the beginning, of what our lovely Bella will ask of him. And thank goodness he does not spare his cordialness, because Bella & I know we are stretching him too far already. And, like I have learned on this site. And as Bella & I learned long ago, as long as her heart is beating, try as Edward might, our lovely Bella gets hurt.
Most frequently by Jacob himself.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And Edward loves Bella so much, that every time she is in bloody pieces on a hospital Bed or on the floor, he becomes almost as fragile as she does. Bella’s stitched up heart needs our loyal, courageous, beloved, mongrel, to the end, to the bloody end. Until Bella’s heart stops beating. We will never, give him up before then. And we make no apology for it.
Edward saves Bella more times than Jacob does. In fact, Jacob only saves her when Edward isn't around. For all the other times (and there are plenty) it's Edward who does the saving.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And you say I should not forgive his extreme behavior.
He's not asking for anyone's forgiveness. He doesn't think he needs it.
Violet Sunlight wrote:No. I beg to differ, in my opinion, Jacob was not extreme enough.
If this is truly what you believe, then it is clear that we have major differences in our belief systems.
Violet Sunlight wrote:His weakness is indulging Bella’s every whim. My beloved mongrel was much to kind to the monsters that were before him. To offer even the sound of his voice to them was more than cordial. My beloved mongrel was far to kind, far to kind. And this is only a part of what my new epiphany has shown me.
I'm sorry, but this statement is nothing short of untrue. Jacob is rarely nice to anyone once Edward returns. He is even rude to Bella on numerous occasions. Being rude to the woman he loves is not good, and I don't think many people can justify it.
Violet Sunlight wrote:What my beloved pup did, was no small thing. He was the firefighter, that went into the burning building, when her father helplessly could not go in. And everyone else ran the opposite way.
Actually the books says that they did try to help her at first: "She didn't call her friends back, and after a while, they stopped calling."
Violet Sunlight wrote:Then he was the hospital, the physical and mental therapist and her best-friend.
Actually, Jake never went near her until she came to him to get him to fix the bikes so she could see Edward.
Violet Sunlight wrote:All, before he romantically ever loved her.
He had plenty of reason to be obliging. Crushes do that. He didn't mind spending time with her!
Violet Sunlight wrote: Imagine if she would have let him fully love her, like his woman.
Yes, and when he was in full-fledged love, what did he do? Insult her. Tell her she was a fool. Manipulate her into kissing him, and continually insult the man she really wanted to be with. It reminds me of Miss Bingley insulting Elizabeth Bennett in front of Mr Darcy. As Jane Austen says, "angry people are not always wise" and in the end it causes Darcy to say, "what gave no one any pain but herself".
Violet Sunlight wrote: And what makes me angry is, where in the world is everyone one else who had a crush on her, when she was her 100% best? I’ll tell you where, they were a Big Disappointing No Show.
By the time we come on the scene, yes. But Charlie suggests that they tried. I can't imagine someone like Angela Weber giving up too soon. And Mike knows he's in with a chance now Edward has gone. I think he would have been quite insistent. And, as a matter of fact, Jacob wasn't there either. He doesn't come on the scene until Bella seeks him out so that he can fix the motorcycles for her ... so she can see Edward.
Violet Sunlight wrote:My pup could not and would not back down. His impecable lineage is one of the many things that made him a state of the art Protector/Carer for Human Life. And more so when it was his beloved. I will say it again, My pup is strong enough and sensitive enough to be around the sick and hurting.
Mike was pretty sick at the movie and he wasn't exactly sensitive then, was he?
Violet Sunlight wrote:Even when everyone else is to scared or unqualified. Even when his hurt is hurting terribly, his strenght does not falter. Obviously, anyone can be around the healthy and the beautiful. But, it takes a special someone to see past the horridness of sickness. And not even my Beloved Edward is strong enough to endure and stay strong at the same time. That takes humanity.
Edward does endure. He endures Bella visiting Jacob, endures separation from her for what he thinks will be her benefit. He allows her to make her decision about who she wants, backing off when he realises his actions are hurting her, something Jacob never does. He's quite happy to hurt her until it is manifestly clear he has lost the fight.
Violet Sunlight wrote:And this makes me wonder if Bella would have walked into Forks High School for the first time in her horrid condition. Unable, to keep conversation well, would my beloved Edward pursue her. Because vampires are attracted to extraordinarily beautiful people. And Bella was beautiful. Edward said it there is a long line of people jocking for his spot. But would her soul be enough to lure him. I wonder.
If her soul was beautiful (as it is) I'm sure it would. The MS draft (which I will not quote here because I know some people have avoided reading it) makes it clear that it was not just her face that attracted him. He is not shallow enough to be attracted by just a pretty face.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Seth tolerates the cullens for the newborn fight, not before. And becomes Edward"s friend after the win.
Actually there is no evidence of what Seth's viewpoint was prior to the fight. The only snippet we get is that he grew a little skittish when a bit too close to the Cullens at one stage. And the others also fought with the Cullens and it doesn't seem to have changed their viewpoint very much. No, I believe Seth's viewpoint changed because he is open minded and objective enough to respond to what he sees in Edward's character while at the campsite with Bella and Edward. In fact, this had to have surfaced before the fight, because he follows Edward's instruction to "go" initially, probably because he had laid out a plan in his mind, and he trusted Edward, simply through that one word, to follow through with this plan. A very trusting, open minded soul.

Now, as your epiphany seems to have led you to believe that Jacob is beyond fault, I would like to ask you what you make of his behaviour when he is about to carry Bella to the campsite. In fact, I'm interested in everyone's opinion on this. I'm talking about the time when he comes to pick Bella up and knocks her legs out from under her, catching her just before her head hits the ground. I mention it because it was this, above everything else, that was the deal breaker for me as far as Jacob was concerned. I can see no good reason for him to do this. Edward isn't around to annoy, and even if he's listening in, which I doubt (I can't imagine him not coming back when Jake did that), there is still no good reason for this kind of behaviour. I can understand that he might have thought that kissing her might make her realise that she loved him, even though I don't agree with how he went about it, but I can only think of one reason for him doing this, and that is that he was showing off how clever and quick and strong he was. But the problem with that is that he does it by making Bella look weak. He makes himself look strong by degrading her. I found this behaviour absolutely disgraceful, and if I saw any guy doing that to a girl I would advise her to stay away from him. It was seriously disturbing to me.
Last edited by Tornado on Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chernaudi
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Re: Explorations

Post by Chernaudi »

I haven't been to this thread in a while, but I'll say my piece.

While Bella and Edward aren't perfect saints, they own up to their mistakes, while Jacob, though immaturity and wanting to have is way and not knowing when to give up makes him seem less honorable in my eye. You'd expect him to apologize to Bella and Edward for making things so hard on them. And of course, Charlie joking with Jacob doesn't make things better--I know that it's probably his prejudice against Edward coming out, but Charlie didn't know how much Edward was trying to save and protect Bella, including his ill-fated--and what I feel to be daft and ignorant move--to leave her. You'd at least feel that Charlie would want to punch Jake's lights out over him basically stopping just short of sexually assaulting his daughter and her nearly breaking her hand to save herself? But joke about it at first? That's one thing that I think that Billy Burke didn't get.

Bella and Edward are flawed human beings, like we all are, and so is Jacob, but they at least seem grown up enough to realize when they've done wrong, but it seems that Jacob has very few if any regrets, and that to me is a bit unsettling, even from a guy's perspective on this.
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Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Chernaudi, I couldn't agree more, and I'm pleased to see a guy taking that point of view over Jacob's kiss.
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marielle
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Re: Explorations

Post by marielle »

Pfff, heavy discussion here...
Lets see if I can jump in...

I'm a total team Edward, I'm sorry Violet Sunlight but I hope you don't feel we are ganging up against you, that is not the case...
corona wrote:In my opinion, again, Jacob's obsession with Bella ended up being the primary driver of his actions, with Bella's life being the basis for his extreme behavior. Jacob's inconsistencies indicated to me that he didn't want to believe in Bella's love for Edward, and vice versa, because it destroyed the primary excuse for his actions.
First, don't hate me for this Caryn, I'm going to make a point for Jacob here.
Jacob was in the beginning the perfect friend. he didn't believe the vampire shoot and after Edward left her he hated him for the pain that Edward caused to Bella, he was there for Bella like a true friend. Everything changed when Jacob changed.
I think it is very understandable that the draw of imprinting is so instinctively based that he felt like he was in love with Bella because a part of her became his imprint. I think his extreme behavoir is driving by the need for the wolf's imprint.
The fact that Edward is a vampire, his mortal enemy (instinctively) and the man who will take his obsession from him makes Jacob hate Edward even more. when he says he is trying to save Bella from the vampires isn't completely true, only he doesn't know it yet, he is trying to save what will be his imprint.
Jazz Girl wrote:I could never ever understand Charlie's reaction to what amounted to his daughter's assault, ESPECIALLY as a law enforcement officer. At the very least, he should have immediately rebuked Jacob for his behavior and set him straight about the laws of every state in the US.
I totally agree.... Jacob, how ever driven by needs and instinct should have listened to Bella and have stopped. He is actually behaving here like a small child how doesn't gets what he wants and throws a tantrum...but Charlie... what kind of dad is he to agree with Jacob, I know he doesn't like Edward, and he does have a point with that, but if it had been Mike who had kissed Bella against her will, Mike would probably be shot...
I really can't understand why Charlie is taking Jacob's side so much...he should as a dad side with his daughter, both men had hurt her a lot, shouldn't he send them both away...
These violent delights, have violent endings...Like fire and gunpowder, they consume what they kiss

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