Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:23 pm

Thank you for your good wishes, Violet Sunlight. :)
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:05 am

RL attacked me, and I lost a week. We've totally moved on since I last posted.
corona wrote:I can see December's argument that Bella eventually displaced her fears of the change onto the wedding itself by dragging it out. That makes sense. It also makes sense that Bella might realize that the last time she could see her parents would be at the wedding. She would have to be human for that. A wedding means having to say goodbye to Renee and Charlie.

Well, it makes sense, but i don't see those themes being carried very strongly by the text.
I agree that one of the falsest notes in the first 3 books is Bella explaining why she won't marry Edward ("its just so embarrassing!"). When you grow up with Bella's stated convictions, it's not embarrassing, it's natural ... not very logical when you've met the vampire of your dreams and decided to give up your life for him, but not embarrassing. A very cute little sketch, December, and a big possibility, but as written (remember I'm a latecomer to the series) I lean towards her having a mild, instilled inclination against early marriage, and then displacing all her fears about the transformation (the unknown, the pain, the loss of self, etc) onto fears of marriage. I also think, actually, that it goes a way towards explaining her persistence in running off to La Push; that that was another manifestation of her fear of transformation. She gets to hide from her increasingly adult life there. She says something along the lines of, I was another Bella when I was with Jacob, a less-mature, more-reckless me who could laugh off my fears of Victoria. The transformation is literal, sure, but also symbolic of the transition to adulthood. Life as a vampire is serious as a heart attack, and those Quileute boys never SEEM to take anything seriously. Bella wants to be transformed, much as she wants to be an adult (like any teen), and feels that both are inevitable for her ... but she is still understandably ambivalent about this huge step. She escapes to La Push, first when Edward is gone, then with his approval (although in a manner that unpleasantly heightens the sense that she is being childlike, "this is like when Charlie and Renee would exchange me in the summer"). There, no one wants her to marry Edward, no one wants her to transform, and she gets support for that side of her, even though most of her doesn't really want that side to be supported. Am I making any sense here?
corona wrote:Edward's epiphany at the end of Eclipse is supposed to actually mean something. I saw that as his final acceptance that this was going to happen and that they were bonded together forever, which was essentially Bella's own epiphany at the end of New Moon. And Edward is finally really listening to Bella again, and he has avoided that ever since the attack by James. One thing that Bella is telling him is that the honeymoon nuptials are important to her, and Edward finally gets it. Bella needs that, she is afraid she won't know herself afterwards. Another thing Edward realizes is that Bella isn't particularly happy at that moment once the subject of Jacob comes up. And Edward gets that, this is his problem, however good his intentions were, he helped cause this, and Bella is unhappy. This was the result of Edward taking a paternalistic approach to their relationship and making decisions for Bella that he thought were in her best interests, and because he never accepted that being together was inevitable. For all of his good intentions, Edward has caused Bella to be in pain.

Edward then shows the confidence of his new epiphany when he tells Bella he is going to give her everything she wants, that his only desire is for her to be happy. And when she stops him, he tells her "This had better not be about me." Bingo!

Flash forward to the wedding reception, and almost all of that has been lost.
Sorry - a bunch of people have posted on the EC epiphany, I just picked on corona. I don't have as much of a problem with Edward's so-called epiphany at the end of EC because I never saw it as an epiphany. I think that it's a good example of a standard Edwardian whipsaw. Earlier in EC he whipsaws from paternalistic to at least saying that it's all about what Bella wants ("I'm here until she tells me to go."). Now she's finally acting like a grown-up after this hideous night of crying all over Edward about some other guy (as far as he can figure), and he's feeling horribly guilty about this point of making her marry him and delaying the transformation. Because no one can feel guilty for no reason like Edward. He suddenly whipsaws again ("Deal's off," he said abruptly.) and decides that he's wrong about that too - that he doesn't have the right to make any demands of Bella. At all. Which is also not partner-like behavior. I see that he was emotionally reactive to what was a very draining 36 hours, and was able to consider gritting his teeth and just doing IT spontaneously in the meadow, just quickly shoving his misgivings aside. But the two months delay until the wedding gives him plenty of time to bring those misgivings back, to feel at the reception, although I agree that realistically he would not have expressed them. And if nothing else, it's fairly bizarre for the virgin bride to be saying, "I know you can handle having sex with me. We can do this!" (I know that's not a direct quote.)

I don't see Edward having what I would characterize as an epiphany until he hears Nessie for the first time, and can talk to Jacob calmly and peacefully afterward.
corona wrote:From the viewpoint of human behavior, I think I have the stronger argument that Jacob was reacting to the shattering of his delusional fantasies, but then Stephenie pulls the rug out from under me and has Edward confirm that Jacob is thinking only about Bella's welfare. The fact that Edward actually says it must mean that Jacob's intentions were primarily noble. My contention would be that it is so unbelievable that Edward would say it, it means instead that SM was worried that Jacob's actions would be "misinterpreted".
Yeah, I'm sure Jacob was only thinking from noblest motives when he was slow dancing with his crush at her wedding, in the dark, at the edge of the reception. Steph is using "noblest motives" as code for something, right?
Violet Sunlight wrote:In any case, I do feel there needed to be someone to give Bella a heartfelt warning of the dangers she was signing up for. I don’t think any of the Cullens would have been able to do it, the Cullens love Bella and Edward both.
I disagree. The Cullens are all mature adults in their behavior, at least the vast majority of the time. Edward warns Bella all the time of the danger. Heavens, Jasper nearly killed her. Jacob has warned Bella of the danger many, many times. Bella is well aware ("You didn't have to break the bed. I know how strong you are."). If any of the Cullens felt that Bella was unaware of the danger, they would have told her in no uncertain terms. They do love Bella and Edward equally, and no one's interests would be served by Edward killing Bella. Jacob, in fact (bless the boy), overreacts, because of his lack of appreciation of the depth of Edward's love for Bella and total lack of appreciation of the self-control Edward has developed. There was a dramatic need to heighten awareness of the danger at this point, though, and Stephenie gave that to Jacob quite naturally.
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corona wrote:I've noticed that a few times, though, where Bella recounts events that seem to skip over NM and EC entirely, as if the original FD story was simply reworked, with entire paragraphs being pasted into the new story.
Yes, yes, yes, I've got your back. I've noticed both those segments with exactly the same complaint. BD has seemed poorly edited to me ever since my first read, and I think that it is this patchiness that I was picking up on. In particular, Book 3 Edward is a much less developed character than he was in NM, EC, and even BD1&2. IMHO. He seems 2 dimensional to me, a bit like TW Chap 13 Edward.
Tornado wrote:Besides, the whole epiphany at the end of Eclipse (and possibly the one at the end of NM, too) may well have been put in just to tie that story off and leave the reader on a high. One of the things that I have learned, to my annoyance, since trying to have my book published, is how much they want you to tie off your story at the end of a book, no matter whether it's one of a series or not. If the first book in my trilogy gets published I'm already anticipating an enormous fight (which I will probably lose) over book two, which currently ends on a huge cliffhanger. Publishers hate that kind of thing, worried it will turn off the audience.
What happened to intellectual honesty and creative integrity? :rant: Tolkien's Two Towers doesn't exactly end on an up note. Are we so relentlessly about cheerfulness that even moments of tragedy are intolerable? If we wrote a Arthurian story now, would Guenivere get an amicable divorce and go live with Lancelot, and Mordred and Arthur reconcile? Heavens, what has happened to literature! Is the happy ending just a YA thing, in a misguided attempt to protect our youth from even fictional stress? End rant. :blush: Good luck, Tornado, and may I someday point to your book on my shelf and say, I knew her when. :clap:
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:49 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:RL attacked me, and I lost a week. We've totally moved on since I last posted.
What? You mean you have a LIFE???? ;)
smitten_by_twilight wrote:I lean towards her having a mild, instilled inclination against early marriage, and then displacing all her fears about the transformation (the unknown, the pain, the loss of self, etc) onto fears of marriage.
That certainly comes into play.
smitten_by_twilight wrote: I also think, actually, that it goes a way towards explaining her persistence in running off to La Push; that that was another manifestation of her fear of transformation. She gets to hide from her increasingly adult life there. She says something along the lines of, I was another Bella when I was with Jacob, a less-mature, more-reckless me who could laugh off my fears of Victoria. The transformation is literal, sure, but also symbolic of the transition to adulthood.
Absolutely. I've been thinking a bit about this lately, too. One of the things that always struck me about Bella running of to La Push was how she seemed to enjoy the fact that it allowed her to indulge in a side of her that had no real responsibility and was more immature (another reason why I felt Jacob was never a realistic option for a long term relationship). She likes to go there so she can shed the responsibilities she has, and fair enough as, at that point, they are quite a heavy load to carry. But she always knows that, if she is to get what she wants, that side cannot be indulged for long.

smitten_by_twilight wrote:I see that he was emotionally reactive to what was a very draining 36 hours, and was able to consider gritting his teeth and just doing IT spontaneously in the meadow, just quickly shoving his misgivings aside. But the two months delay until the wedding gives him plenty of time to bring those misgivings back, to feel at the reception, although I agree that realistically he would not have expressed them.
Absolutely. Although I do think it's realistic and online with his character to say, "I'm not sure this is such a good idea" at that point.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:What happened to intellectual honesty and creative integrity? :rant: Tolkien's Two Towers doesn't exactly end on an up note. Are we so relentlessly about cheerfulness that even moments of tragedy are intolerable? If we wrote a Arthurian story now, would Guenivere get an amicable divorce and go live with Lancelot, and Mordred and Arthur reconcile? Heavens, what has happened to literature! Is the happy ending just a YA thing, in a misguided attempt to protect our youth from even fictional stress?
Ha! That's not how it works, my friend. Not unless you're either a big name author, or happen on an idea like SM did which they are sure will make them a bucket of money. The rest of us have to toe the line and tick all the boxes that will give the novel the maximum chance of success. I'm becoming more and more amazed at how much of a science it is for some people. At a conference I went to recently I was told, "The resolution to the climax must be completed no more than 700 words after the climax" or something to that effect. I was sitting there going, "What?????" That's ridiculous! You use as many words as you need to tell the story!!!!

It took me right back to what has become my favourite quote since I started trying to get my book published, an adaptation of a quote from The Dead Poet's Society: "We're not laying pipe, we're telling stories!" But that doesn't count for anything when you're an unknown. Just like with movie screenplays, you have to toe the line, and that reminds me a quote from the movie Working Girl, "You can break the rules plenty when you get to the top, but not when you're trying to get there, and if you're someone like me, you can't get there without breaking the rules." So it has been disheartening at times. I'm hoping for big success now, for no other reason than it will mean I can do whatever I want and no one will stop me.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Re: Explorations

Post by December » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:13 am

Smitten by Twilight wrote: as written (remember I'm a latecomer to the series) I lean towards her having a mild, instilled inclination against early marriage, and then displacing all her fears about the transformation (the unknown, the pain, the loss of self, etc) onto fears of marriage. I also think, actually, that it goes a way towards explaining her persistence in running off to La Push; that that was another manifestation of her fear of transformation. She gets to hide from her increasingly adult life there. She says something along the lines of, I was another Bella when I was with Jacob, a less-mature, more-reckless me who could laugh off my fears of Victoria. The transformation is literal, sure, but also symbolic of the transition to adulthood. Life as a vampire is serious as a heart attack, and those Quileute boys never SEEM to take anything seriously. Bella wants to be transformed, much as she wants to be an adult (like any teen), and feels that both are inevitable for her ... but she is still understandably ambivalent about this huge step. She escapes to La Push, first when Edward is gone, then with his approval (although in a manner that unpleasantly heightens the sense that she is being childlike, "this is like when Charlie and Renee would exchange me in the summer"). There, no one wants her to marry Edward, no one wants her to transform, and she gets support for that side of her, even though most of her doesn't really want that side to be supported. Am I making any sense here?

YES YES YES. As you probably know, I simply couldn’t agree more. The thought behind my little skit was more an attempt to account for the lameness of Bella’s reasons: I really do think Stephenie was a bit clutching at straws here, trying to come up with a plausible-sounding excuse without being able to really imagine feeling that marrying young is weird. And the original impetus behind Bella's resistance was definitely external -- publishers’ feedback -- rather a natural outgrowth of the storytelling. Hence my bit of fun picturing Bella refusing to help Stephenie think up a convincing rationale.

That said, whatever Stephenie may have believed she was doing, it’s totally clear to me that Bella’s unconscious motivations are exactly as you describe. (When Stephenie talks about her characters as if they had a life of their own in her head, I think it’s no more than the truth!). At this point in the story, Bella is just not ready to acknowledge the terrible responsibility which becoming a vampire means, and her buried fears get displaced onto the rite of passage which marriage symbolizes -- with predictably irrational results.

At the risk of becoming self-parody....would you all forgive me if I quoted something again at length? I simply can't put the thought better than I did the very first time I had it:


Bella thinks she’s just bothered about the social stigma.....But you know, she is afraid. Not of committing to Edward, but of eternity. So terrified that she can't even bring herself to see how soon graduation will be upon her. And part of her just isn't ready for the responsibility of making that irrevocable choice, much more irrevocable -- and terrible -- than marriage. To quote something I wrote on another occasion: I was very struck by Bella's first reaction to going back to La Push and seeing Jake. He makes her feel like a more carefree version of her self, "a little younger, a little less responsible. Someone who might do something really stupid for no good reason." Given where the story is going, that passage really grabbed my attention. Staying human with Jake would mean be able to remain young for many years to come. Not having to face up to decisions as grave as the one looming over her, decisions she is really too young to be making (certainly Edward thinks so). Not having to do something you could never do without good reason, something which only the very best, most absolutely unanswerable reasons could ever possibly justify. Outwardly Bella is still the insouciant teenager who thinks of her transformation as a promise extracted from Carlisle, a gift, an adventure, but at the back of her mind, the gravity of what she is undertaking has already begun to make itself felt.

And it's not just that Bella isn't ready to make the serious choices she is confronting. She isn't really ready for the eternity of responsibility that will follow. Becoming a vampire means leaving the freedoms of her human childhood -- even a childhood as overshadowed as Bella's has been with responsibility for her parents, Victoria's death threats etc. -- behind forever. Paradoxically, it's the human teenagers, gradually growing old, who can be young. The ageless Cullens, frozen forever at 17 or 18, are the ones burdened with an eternity of unremitting responsibility. Being a vampire means struggling forever with the danger that you will lose control and kill someone. Or that you will slip up and give yourself away and have to kill them. "Part of being a Cullen means being meticulously responsible.'

So it seems to me that Bella's aversion to the symbolic commitment of marriage is something we have to take seriously after all. It's nothing to do with having second thoughts about her love for Edward. But it's everything to do with giving her life for him. At the back of the thought 'I'm too young to be getting married,' is a little panicky voice saying 'I'm too young to die." The voice that tries to sing 'Here Comes the Bride" but only manages the Death March....

[From the Choices thread Nov 30th 2007]

Which of course provides a perfectly good explanation, within the story, for the blatant feebleness of Bella's excuses!

As for Edward's epiphany: I'll have to get back to this when I have more time. All I can say is....for me, Edward's epiphany was the occasion for my own very first epiphany about this story (as I read it). Trying to make sense of the scene's many apparent non-sequiturs was the thing that first got me thinking about the sober underside to Twilight's fluffy romance -- to recognize Bella's unacknowledged fears and the legitimacy of Edward's profound misgivings (remember this is before most of MS came to light) and appreciate the true measure of the sacrifices Bella is making for love. But that's for another day! Suffice it to say: for me, there's definitely more to Edward's volte-face than another characteristic change of tune. To me, it makes TOTAL, heartbreaking sense....


ETA
btw Smitten, this is an Ars Longa thread -- however far the convo has moved on, it's never too late to go back if you want to!
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:34 pm

Smitten, I have to say your comments about Bella at La Push have got me thinking. There definitely is something child-like about it. That puts a different spin on it, doesn't it? Not dangerously naive, but merely wanting to return to a simpler time in her life, watching tide pools, making mud pies, and holding hands with your friend. And when Bella gets angry with Jacob there, it isn't just about him criticizing Edward, it's also about breaking that entire bubble. A fascinating irony, no, that Jacob's best chance might actually have been not to push the issue at all? That goes in hand with Tornado's theory that Jacob was Bella's drug while Edward was away. Not pushing the issue with Bella would have given her more time with him, and the more you use the drug...

If that is the case, I wonder if Edward had contemplated that possibility as well, that going to La Push wasn't just about Jacob, it was something that Bella genuinely needed? That put's a different nuance on some things.
December wrote:Suffice it to say: for me, there's definitely more to Edward's volte-face than another characteristic change of tune. To me, it makes TOTAL, heartbreaking sense....
That's playing it dirty, teasing us with it, and then not spilling the beans.

As my comments about the wedding reception have shown, I do place quite a bit of importance on Edward's "epiphany" at the end of EC. As succintly as I can say it, he finally accepts responsibility for his role in the relationship, and he finally embraces the relationship and all of its consequences.

From the tent scene:
  • "The second alternative, the one I’d originally chosen, was to stay with her throughout her human life. It wasn’t a good option for her, to waste her life with someone who couldn’t be human with her, but it was the alternative I could most easily face."
And,
  • "What do I have left but the fourth option? It’s what she wants — at least, she thinks she does. I’ve been trying to delay her, to give her time to find a reason to change her mind, but she’s very . . . stubborn."
Not very enthusiastic support, is it? Bella wants to be with Edward forever and he is...resigned to it. And his second alternative, the one Edward had chosen, was admittedly not a good option for Bella, but the one Edward could most easily face.

And there in the meadow, I think Edward finally gets it. He has been dodging responsibility because he feels guilty about the consequences. There is something that he, and only he, can do for Bella. It's too late. Reuniting with Bella had consequences. The bubble pops for both of them. Bella is going to move forward. If Edward isn't going to move forward with her, he should have stayed away. He cannot avoid his responsibility in the relationship any further, and he can no longer fool himself that doing that is being selfless, it is being selfish.

I greatly sympathize with Edward. He has to sacrifice his conscience and just hope that everything turns out well. But the girl that is sitting beside him has clearly considered the consequences and is ready to sacrifice her human life. Edward can't put up any more roadblocks, he has to step up to the plate, and he does.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:38 pm

corona wrote: And there in the meadow, I think Edward finally gets it. He has been dodging responsibility because he feels guilty about the consequences. There is something that he, and only he, can do for Bella. It's too late. Reuniting with Bella had consequences. The bubble pops for both of them. Bella is going to move forward. If Edward isn't going to move forward with her, he should have stayed away. He cannot avoid his responsibility in the relationship any further, and he can no longer fool himself that doing that is being selfless, it is being selfish.
Absolutely. But that realisation is not necessarily going to stop the negativity creeping back in. He's still Edward, after all, and thinking about that kind of thing is something he's going to do. He's making progress, but doubt's still likely to reassert itself at this stage. It's not until Renesmee's birth and Bella's response to her transformation that he can finally nail the lid shut on his negative side, because he has, by then, been proven wrong in every worry he's had.
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:50 am

Tornado wrote:
SBT wrote:RL attacked me, and I lost a week. We've totally moved on since I last posted.
What? You mean you have a LIFE????
I have something I use for one. It suits my humble needs. ;)

I'm flattered my post met with such a nice response.
December wrote:That said, whatever Stephenie may have believed she was doing, it’s totally clear to me that Bella’s unconscious motivations are exactly as you describe. (When Stephenie talks about her characters as if they had a life of their own in her head, I think it’s no more than the truth!).
Absolutely. Lots of authors talk about their characters having minds of their own - I am minded more recently of Rowling getting the house elves to cooperate in HP7 - and it always seemed to me that characters exist 1 on the level that the author thinks they have created them at, 2 on the level of "reality" where the author has unconsciously imbued them with personality that the author is unaware of until it manifests, and 3 on the level where we can see in them themes and philosophies and art. I'm not actually sure Stephenie always knows what's going on in her character's heads 100%.
December wrote:At the risk of becoming self-parody....
I never think of you as self-parody. I think you scintillate ... actually, right now this whole thread is scintillating, which is almost as good as sparkling, without the burn. ;)
corona wrote:
December wrote:Suffice it to say: for me, there's definitely more to Edward's volte-face than another characteristic change of tune. To me, it makes TOTAL, heartbreaking sense....
That's playing it dirty, teasing us with it, and then not spilling the beans.
Yes, it is. But in the mean time, I thought of another way to emphasize why the EC "epiphany" seemed so much not like one to me. He's clearly made a resolution - give Bella everything she wants, right now. Sex, check ... not too hard difficult to go along with that, no noticeable flinching. No wedding, check, my soul's damned anyway, I was only worried for her, and she tells me not to worry. Transformation tonight, agonizing pain wrought by me - teeth gritting. He's not at peace with his resolution. And he's still telling her what to do, kind of, until she pushed him off. In BD, after hearing Renesmee, he's calm and at peace, able to accept the inevitable and push forward. But I'll stop harping on this, and wait for other opinion.
Tornado wrote:At a conference I went to recently I was told, "The resolution to the climax must be completed no more than 700 words after the climax" or something to that effect.
Mindless drones. You can't reduce creativity that way, you can't make it into a formula, or you lose it. It's like classes in creative writing (and I took one once, many moons ago): if you want to learn how to write, then write. Classes can actually stifle creative impulses.
December wrote:btw Smitten, this is an Ars Longa thread -- however far the convo has moved on, it's never too late to go back if you want to!
No biggy, just a observation that Leah is also different in being much smaller than the other wolves, and that she had changed much later. I think that she is genetically a "sport," flukily different for no clear reason, and I tend to think that's more evidence that she may be infertile.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:10 pm

Yeah, unfortunately these mindless drones are all respected Australian writers! I couldn't agree more about writing to learn how to write. If it doesn't flow naturally, there doesn't seem much point to it.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:26 pm

Welcome back smitten_by_twilight. :wave:

I would like to start by saying, I agree with 99% of what you said in your first response to corona in your 1/13/12 post. The only thing I differ in is when you say, “unpleasantly heightens the sense that she is being childlike”. I, of course, consider it very pleasant. ;)
smitten_by_twilight wrote:I don't see Edward having what I would characterize as an epiphany until he hears Nessie for the first time, and can talk to Jacob calmly and peacefully afterward.
I agree.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:Yeah, I'm sure Jacob was only thinking from noblest motives when he was slow dancing with his crush at her wedding, in the dark, at the edge of the reception. Steph is using "noblest motives" as code for something, right?
I guess for me, I always interpret Jacob’s motives, in the wedding reception, as the movie version does. Thus, Bella’s and Jacob’s mushy and sentimental feelings in this scene make sense to me.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:I disagree. The Cullens are all mature adults in their behavior, at least the vast majority of the time. Edward warns Bella all the time of the danger. Heavens, Jasper nearly killed her. Jacob has warned Bella of the danger many, many times. Bella is well aware ("You didn't have to break the bed. I know how strong you are."). If any of the Cullens felt that Bella was unaware of the danger, they would have told her in no uncertain terms. They do love Bella and Edward equally, and no one's interests would be served by Edward killing Bella. Jacob, in fact (bless the boy), overreacts, because of his lack of appreciation of the depth of Edward's love for Bella and total lack of appreciation of the self-control Edward has developed. There was a dramatic need to heighten awareness of the danger at this point, though, and Stephenie gave that to Jacob quite naturally.
I do agree that the Cullens and Jacob, and IMO, sometimes Bella’s own intuition, warn Bella repeatedly and thoroughly of the real danger of being in the overall proximity of the yellow and red eyed vampires. She is always well informed before she takes on every physical painful step and lesson, up until of course, the unforeseen pregnancy (no one saw that coming). But, being with a vampire in the intimate-honeymoon way is not the same as being with a vampire in the overall way. IMO, it is easier to keep control in one’s own anger than to keep control one’s own pleasure. And IMO, Jacob was acting, albeit to a higher degree, like Edward did when Bella first presented the idea of having a honeymoon before the wedding. Edward seemed shocked and appalled at the idea also.

Also, I kindly and respectfully say, IMO, I do NOT think Jacob overacts at all, and definitely NOT in this scene. And IMO, definitely, NOT because as you say, “Jacob, in fact (bless the boy), overreacts, because of his lack of appreciation of the depth of Edward’s love for Bella and total lack of appreciation of the self-control Edward has developed”. I facetiously say, as the famous Tina Turner song says, “What’s love got to do with it?”. The love of a supernatural and/or magical being is NOT a guarantee that the regular human won’t accidentally and seriously get physically hurt, whether permanently or temporary, or both, while in their proximity and especially an intimate proximity. Emily and Sam’s imprinting relationship, is a perfect example of a regular human getting accidently, physically and permanently hurt by a supernatural and/or magical being that adores her more than his own existence. And that was all without the intimacy and without the human’s and supernatural being’s consent to intentionally gamble with the human’s safety and wellbeing. I sometimes think Sam & Emily’s relationship and accident was a foreshadowing of what was going to eventually happen with Bella and Edward’s honeymoon. Emily’s permanent claw-marked face reminds me of Bella’s temporary finger-marked bruises. Both done accidentally by their respective beloved supernatural and/or magical being. And Bella’s pregnancy reminds me of the permanency factor of the risk taken. Overall, Emily and Bella were never the same as they were before both of their respective accidental events. Though, I am glad it all worked out for all parties involved in the end.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Nobody gets done more dirty than my poor beloved mongrel.
One name: Leah.
I kindly disagree. Leah does NOT suffer more than Jacob does before he imprints on Renesmee. These are the following, BD Ch16 quotes, that make me believe as I do:

Leah says, “I’m happier now, as a part of your pack, than I have been in years”.

Then two or three more pages later the conversation goes into the comparison of what Leah faced and what Jacob was facing and the conversation, regarding that subject, concluded as follows:

“I know it’s worse for you. At least Sam is happy. At least he’s alive and well. I love him enough that I want that. I want him to have what’s best for him. She sighed. I just don’t want to stick around to watch.
Do we need to talk about this?
I think we do. Because I want you to know that I won’t make it worse for you. Hell, maybe I’ll even help. I wasn’t’ born a compassionless shrew. I used to be sort of nice, you know.
My memory doesn’t go that far back.
We both laughed once.
I’m sorry about this, Jacob. I’m sorry you’re in pain. I’m sorry it’s getting worse and not better.
Thanks, Leah”.


Therefore, when I said “Nobody gets done more dirty than my poor beloved mongrel”. I’m NOT saying Leah’s situation was a piece of cake. I’m just saying, Jacob suffered romantically MORE than anybody else in this fairy tale, including Leah.

Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:50 am

Did Jacob really suffer romantically more than anyone else? There's one person who I think suffered at least equally, if not more, and that is Edward himself.

Now, I grant you, much of Edward's suffering was due to his personality, and therefore largely self-inflicted, but there's no doubt he still suffered a lot. From the moment he fell in love with Bella he was tormented with the very real possibility that he might kill her, even if only accidentally through an unintentional use of his strength, although the danger of his thirst overriding him was certainly real in Twilight and early in New Moon. But he endures this all the time, constantly at war with himself over whether he pursues this relationship or whether he leaves in order to ensure Bella's safety.

Then, of course, he does leave, and puts himself through hell, all because of the mistaken belief that this will be to Bella's benefit. He then tries to kill himself because he thinks she's dead, before being reunited and seeing, to his horror, that the hell he went through, supposedly for her benefit, has hurt her just as much as it hurt him. He then has to live with this pain and endure both his own conscience and Jacob continually throwing his unworthiness in his face, while he, again, vacillates back and forth over whether Jacob is better for Bella than he is. He also agrees to allow her to be transformed into a vampire, something that he doesn't want, and that also worries him, as he is convinced that, once it is done, she will hate him for it, in spite of wanting it so much beforehand.

Then, when he finally gets her to marry him, he agrees to something that worries him no end: sex before the transformation. At first, he is horrified at what he does on that first night, but then it seems okay after that. But wait, there's more! Bella get pregnant, and it looks like he will lose her after all, because she is determined to have the baby in a pregnancy that is likely to kill her.

Then, finally, he receives her, in the same form as himself, and finds that she excels in that life. He has a beautiful child too. But not after load upon load of suffering and trial, certainly equal to Jacob, who also, thankfully, gets a happy ending, just as Edward does.
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