Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Violet Sunlight
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:00 pm

To Tornado ~ :wave:

I'll start when you say, “Now, I grant you, much of Edward's suffering was due to his personality, and therefore largely self-inflicted, but there's no doubt he still suffered a lot.”

I kindly say, this is exactly my point, when I say, [“Therefore, when I said “Nobody gets done more dirty than my poor beloved mongrel”. I’m NOT saying Leah’s situation was a piece of cake. I’m just saying, Jacob suffered romantically MORE than anybody else in this fairy tale, including Leah.”]

When I say, “suffered romantically MORE than anybody else in this fairy tale”, I mean, suffered MORE at the hands of their respective beloved. Not, at their own hands, as you have pointed out in your respective 1/15/12 post.

Now, when it comes to self-inflicting sufferings, IMO, you are right, no one suffers more in this department than Edward. Rosalie comes close, but not quite. She finds somewhat relief two years after being a vampire in Emmett, and even after she herself has arranged to have Emmett changed. (I see Rosalie as the female version of Edward and Leah as the female version of Jacob.) Jasper also comes to mind, but for Jasper his happiness is Alice, his sufferings are second to the happiness he feels with and because of Alice.

Though, Edward has to wait for as he says in the movie, “what seems like forever”, and then when he first gets a torturous whiff of his potential HEA, his HEA seems bittersweet at first. Thankfully, though, for Edward, the wait and sufferings were well worth it all. Edward’s remarkable HEA is more than he dreamed it would be and he finally accepts the fact that he too deserves happiness and unimaginable happiness at that, as we and SM have mentioned in the past. But, IMO, Edward’s sufferings and even his HEA are VERY different than Jacob’s. Bella always gave her love to Edward, even in her pit-of-hell depression, (that Edward himself unintentionally caused, granted for a good reason).

Also, when you say, “Did Jacob really suffer romantically more than anyone else? There is one person, who I think suffered equally, if not more, and that is Edward himself.” I would like to point out that Bella NEVER rejects Edward romantically in any way shape or form. At one point I thought she would reject Edward towards the end of NM Ch23 when she says, “Don’t promise me anything”, I whispered”. then Edward says, “You think I’m lying to you now?” Then Bella says, “No—not lying.” I shook my head, trying to think it through coherently. To examine the hypothesis that he did love me, while staying objective, clinical, so I wouldn’t fall into the trap of hoping. “You could mean it . . . now. But what about tomorrow, when you think about all the reasons you left in the first place? Or next month, when Jasper takes a snap at me?” But, here Bella is just trying to understand Edward’s motives for reconciliation.

However, Bella ALWAYS rejects Jacob, even against her own human-type-intuition’s better judgment. And this is clearly illustrated when Bella, in EC Ch26, (in the heart to heart breakup type conversation) says,

“The worst part is that I saw the whole thing—our whole life. And I want it bad, Jake, I want it all. I want to stay right here and never move. I want to love you and make you happy. And I can’t and it’s killing me. It’s like Sam and Emily, Jake—I never had a choice. I always knew nothing would change. Maybe that’s why I was fighting against you so hard”.

And then the last words between them was, “I leaned in and kissed his face softly, “Love you, Jacob.” He laughed lightly. “love you more.”

Again, IMO, this is just one of the many examples of why, IMO, no one suffers romantically more than Jacob does at the hands of their respective beloved. And this is just the beginning of the painful tears her, and mine, beloved mongrel will shed because of Bella's rejection and choices.


Lastly, when you say, “Then, finally, he receives her, in the same form as himself, and finds that she excels in that life.”

This line had me thinking for a while. Well actually the word “receives” had me thinking for a while. I somewhat agree with this line. Though, I think Edward subconsciously (maybe consciously) received Bella being a veggie-vampire long before she ever was one. I think it happened the moment he decided to romantically pursue her in Twilight. I think that’s why his self-inflicting struggles were amplified once he started to convince himself, his family, Bella and even Jacob, of all the reasons why he should NOT want what he really desires the most and that is, understandably, for Bella to be like him forever. (I’m not sure if I got this idea from the old archive threads or current ones, or if I mixed part of my own opinion in this statement). I think before Bella, he did struggle with who he was but, not to the degree that he does when Bella walks into his life. Which is the main (though, not all) cause of the emotional pain in the Bella & Edward relationship. Edward’s self-inflicting struggles of what he thinks he is and who he thinks he is and Edward’s self-inflicting trials made by his choices (whether intentional or otherwise) is where the majority of the drama and action come into play. Which thankfully, Edward has fully overcome by the end of the fairy tale.

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by corona » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:19 pm

    This is an interesting topic. I'm not sure who I would give it to. You make a good point about Edward, Violet Sunlight, in that it was self-inflicted. But, some of Jacob's pain is too. Jacob never had a solid claim on Bella, so it isn't that he really lost her, more like he lost the opportunity. We certainly get Jacob's pain viscerally and first-hand. Some of that, though, is self-inflicted since he knew he stood little chance of winning Bella, and he holds on even after she has made her choice.

    If we take it that the greatest pain would come from losing something that was absolutely yours, a true perfect soul-mate, then that never really happened with Jacob (since his soul-mate is Nessie). The longest time on that one was definitely Bella, six months from mid-September to mid-March, and Bella believed during that time that all hope was lost.

    Edward's pain was 24/7 and included that one day where he believed Bella had actually died. But if we are talking specifically about unjustified pain inflicted by someone else, then I think Bella experienced the most.

    If we cancel out Bella because everything works out for her, well, it also does for Jacob too. Yeah, Jacob suffers a lot during BD, but Bella was also suffering a lot during NM when Jacob wasn't suffering much but was making his plans for winning her.

    That leaves Leah, who doesn't get much of a happy ending. She suffered for around 2 years, most of that not even knowing why her love, Sam, had dumped her or why her cousin Emily had betrayed her. The price for that knowledge is infertility, at least for the time being.

    By the time of BD, Leah is definitely in a better place than Jacob, but it took her a long, long time to get there.

    Actually, I can name someone who beats them all, including Edward. That would be Marcus.
    "It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:21 pm

    Violet Sunlight wrote: Also, when you say, “Did Jacob really suffer romantically more than anyone else? There is one person, who I think suffered equally, if not more, and that is Edward himself.” I would like to point out that Bella NEVER rejects Edward romantically in any way shape or form.
    Romantic suffering is not just about rejection. It's about suffering as a result of a relationship with the person you care about, whether it is requited or not. And if you do consider romantic suffering to be primarily about rejection then SBT is right: Leah suffers more than Jacob, because Jacob gets a happily ever after with Renesmee, but Leah, at best, gets a place where she doesn't have to listen to her ex's thoughts about his future wife all day.

    Jacob was never meant for Bella, so he is better off, and will be happier, with someone who he is suited for (Renesmee) than he would have been with Bella. This is a happier ending than Leah gets, at least as far as we know from what we are told at the end of BD. Hopefully there will be someone in the future for her.
    corona wrote: Actually, I can name someone who beats them all, including Edward. That would be Marcus.
    Very good point, corona, although we don't experience a lot of Marcus' pain, so it's difficult to feel so much for him. Also, he's with the bad guys!
    Last edited by Tornado on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by December » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:36 pm

    Hmmm,certainly love brings endless possibilities for hurt. But as for which kind of romantic suffering one considers the most devastating/painful/irreparable/long-lasting, I suspect it various tremendously from person to person, and situation to situation; each of us probably has our own personal feelings here. Edward certainly thinks he knows in NM what would be least painful for Bella (and boy does he get it wrong!). But for another girl, stricken by a less indelible passion, maybe rejection might have been easier in the long run than accepting that Edward loves her but their love is not to be.

    Then too, there's the question of how we want to balance short-term suffering against long-term contentment; Leah's story after all is not yet finished. I'm not quite sure how to construct a comparison between her situation (unresolved) to Jake's (resolved).

    And does it matter, as Corona points out, whether the heartache is (partly) deserved, or self-inflicted or in some way attributable to the sufferer? Presumably doesn't diminish the pain, but perhaps lessens our sympathies?

    Personally, I find it pretty hard to adjudicate between the many different characters who suffer such intense heartache in the course of Stephenie's story. In every case, the pain seems to me pretty much off the scale. I personally find Edward and Bella's sufferings more romantic than Jake and Leah's -- that's how the story's been set up to be. But I certainly wouldn't particularly prefer to be in either of their shoes. (As for Marcus, I suppose on paper his story is romantic enough, but I need someone to do more of the narrative work before it gets a real grip on my imagination....). What about Sam? How much weight do we place on his unending guilt at having maimed the woman he loves?
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:49 pm

    December wrote:Then too, there's the question of how we want to balance short-term suffering against long-term contentment; Leah's story after all is not yet finished. I'm not quite sure how to construct a comparison between her situation (unresolved) to Jake's (resolved).
    At least we hope it's unresolved. Not everybody finds somebody.
    December wrote:And does it matter, as Corona points out, whether the heartache is (partly) deserved, or self-inflicted or in some way attributable to the sufferer? Presumably doesn't diminish the pain, but perhaps lessens our sympathies?
    That's exactly right. On the surface of it it might look like Edward didn't suffer as much as Jake because he got Bella in the end, whereas Jake didn't. But Edward still suffered along the way to a great degree, and Jake got a happier ending with Renesmee than he would have ever had with Bella, so I think they're pretty much on par.
    December wrote:Personally, I find it pretty hard to adjudicate between the many different characters who suffer such intense heartache in the course of Stephenie's story. In every case, the pain seems to me pretty much off the scale. I personally find Edward and Bella's sufferings more romantic than Jake and Leah's -- that's how the story's been set up to be.
    Yes, and because it works out it can easily be viewed as a lesser suffering than a relationship (Jacob and Bella's) that doesn't work out. But that isn't necessarily so.
    December wrote:But I certainly wouldn't particularly prefer to be in either of their shoes.
    Absolutely. Rather like Romeo and Juliet. Sure, it's romantic, but do we want to be in their shoes? As someone once pointed out on my favourite TV show: it's called The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet. They die. A romantic story like Edward and Bella's might look desirable from the outside, but when you're in those kinds of situations it's painful and difficult, even if it does work out in the end.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by December » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:58 pm

    And as far as I'm concerned, Jake and Leah can leave their boots in the shoebasket too -- been there, done that (like most of us) in my time. Rejection isn't much fun -- or good for the psyche -- either!

    Extraordinary, isn't it, that humans remain so magnetically drawn to romance -- when it's one of surest routes to misery around? Obviously Nature has put quite a lot of effort into ensuring we don't walk away from the whole business.

    But my goodness, but it does make for electrifying stories....
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:32 pm

    I think we enjoy reading about that when it's happening to someone else, especially since we know that it's going to work out in the end - in most books, anyway. That makes the misery exciting rather than depressing. That's why I get upset if I get to the end of a romantic book/series and the couple I want to be together isn't together. I feel like I've wasted my time. Sure, it might be more realistic, but who wants realism?
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by December » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:40 pm

    Tornado wrote:Sure, it might be more realistic, but who wants realism?

    hahahaha. Amen to that. As my old friend LindsAy observed, there's nothing more annoying than stories that feel it necessary to leave us with a grim, life-is-flawed-so-live-with-it ending. Who needs fiction for that? Life IS flawed -- and we're all living with it, for heaven's sake....
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:54 pm

    Yeah, that's my problem with writers like Thomas Hardy. Yeah, it's great, it's realistic, it points out the flaws in society. Do I need them pointed out? If I want to know about them I watch the news. If you're going to point them out at least give me a story with hope in the middle of all the examples.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Openhome » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:56 pm

    Violet Sunlight wrote:
    When I say, “suffered romantically MORE than anybody else in this fairy tale”, I mean, suffered MORE at the hands of their respective beloved. Not, at their own hands, as you have pointed out in your respective 1/15/12 post.
    December wrote:Hmmm,certainly love brings endless possibilities for hurt. But as for which kind of romantic suffering one considers the most devastating/painful/irreparable/long-lasting, I suspect it various tremendously from person to person, and situation to situation; each of us probably has our own personal feelings here.
    *Yoda Voice*
    Hmmmm, suffering. Suffer, you wiiiiill.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    However, I do want to bring up an interesting point. Suffering is another great human idea that flows through all great works of literature.
    Here are three of the four tenants of Buddhism (I'm not Buddhist, but I think these are true)
    1. There is pain and suffering in the world (and anyone who tells you otherwise, Princess, is trying to sell you something) <<extra points if you know the movie.
    2. Your desires cause your suffering (think about it, it's true)
    3. Suffering will stop when a person learns to rid himself of all desires (to be happy with what he has)

    Why people suffer and what causes pain are questions each generation has asked. The answer is, for the most part, we cause it ourselves. That is one of the key ways the Saga seemed real to me. Yes, the suffering in the saga tended toward the melodramatic, but suffering is often in tandem with desire, and those who desire much, suffer much.

    In the Saga, our heroes don't learn to do without, they fought and got what they wanted (in a freaky kind of way), but you get the gist of it. Their desires caused their suffering.

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