I would like to begin by saying I did not link the vision of red-eyed Edward holding dead human Bella with the vision of vampire-Bella. I interpret them to be separate, two different paths.
~ I agree with your 5/29/12 monkey wrench alternative.
Whatever the cause of Bella’s imminent death circumstance, whether it was at Edward’s hand, another car accident, a plane crash etc., etc., all I know is that the vision where Bella is a vampire one would have to conclude Carlisle got to her in time, otherwise there would be no vision of vampire-Bella.
~ I am responding to your 5/29/12 post. Most of my responses to your post are made below in my responses to Tornado’s post. I just wanted to comment on your last two paragraphs with two responses.
Regarding your comments about Jasper, when you say, "When he votes "Yes", he is probably thinking that Bella has no idea what she is really asking for (and I'm sure he doesn't like voting against his brother)".: Awwwe, I thought the vote explanation he gave in the NM movie was a good one. Especially, if one takes into account how ashamed and responsible he felt for wanting to kill Bella right before the vision, attacking Bella in NM and on her birthday and causing her break up which caused her to go to Volterra to save suicidal Edward.
Regarding Rosalie and when you say "Rosalie may have a good argument against making the change and could conceivably establish a well principled vote of "No", but she doesn't make one, she simply tells Bella she didn't get a choice, so Bella doesn't get one either.": That is certainly a reasonable way of interpreting Rosalie’s feelings towards her “NO” vote. I actually thought it was the most selfless she has ever been. She could have put her principles on the side and voted "Yes" because she felt she owed Bella for putting her in danger when Bella had to go to Volterra, but she did not. Lastly, as it is mentioned throughout the books, Rosalie values humanity far too much to ever just discard it. She would even give up her beloved Emmett to get it back. Bella's wishes pale incomparison to that.
~ I hope you don’t mind, I know I said my last post was going to have my last points on the subject but I can’t help myself, you bring up so many great points I want to respond to all of them. Also, I am not going to use the quote feature in an attempt to squeeze as much as I can in one post and for me it is a little bit more comfortable when preparing a long post not to use it. So I have made 11 points to your 11 responses.
Regarding your first paragraph, when you say, “she and the Cullens were happy with that choice . . . .”, my response is: Nevertheless, though Bella happily made the informed choice and made it towards the END of the 1st book, her informed choice did not compel Carlisle to make the offer to sire her. And yes, some of the Cullens happily supported her choice, and probably were happy they had prior knowledge of her consent, unlike their respective imminent death circumstances. However, like I said before, something else was needed, the choice did not have enough weight. Deathbed still required by Carlisle. Although, Carlisle at least was flexible enough to amend his requirement, it didn’t even have to be Bella’s deathbed. Ironically, it would be a vampire’s potential deathbed that would finally compel Carlisle to make the offer to Bella. Yes, his beloved son.
2.I don’t think the Cullens formed an opinion about Bella’s changing preference either when Alice told them about the vision. The way I interpret it, due to the Cullens prior history and due to the fact that moments before Alice’s vision, Edward thought to himself Rosalie ought to have known better, “Carlisle does not compromise”, it was a given that the family would assume her change would be similar to everyone Carlisle changed and yes it was a given that it would be Carlisle who changed her. Further, yes as you say, “the Cullens are well aware that someone does not have to be dying to be changed, even if that was the way Carlisle operated up until that stage, and waiting until she is on her deathbed is a risky thing to do”, of course, death is a risky ordeal, but Carlisle has made it his business to be the opposite of not just the bad red-eyed vampires but the good ones too. Who as we know, have been known to gamble the vampire secret and inform friends and relatives of their existence not to mention the offer to become one of them. And all because the vampire wants that human individual to be around as long as they exist, therefore they are offering the transformation with a clause that benefits them.
Regarding the paragraph when you said, “Let’s look at the situation”:
When Alice says, “Either he’ll kill her himself’----she turned to meet my gaze again, glaring----“which would really irritate me, Edward, not to mention what it would do to you---” she faced Jasper again, “or she’ll be one of us someday”. I don’t think Alice was referring to Bella’s death in general, I think she was referring to Bella’s death at the hands of Edward and yes it would have affected Edward profoundly and grievously, to say the least.
Regarding the paragraph when you say, “As a result, it would seem more logical to assume that Bella found out about the vampire life and wanted to join it . . . . .”:
Now, I agree that from the vision one can tell Bella has discovered the Cullens’ secret and is okey dokey about it, but I disagree that one would conclude Bella would desire to be a yellow-eyed vampire, (I’ll explain in my next paragraph) though I do believe, from the vision, one can tell she will join them when she finally is a vampire, of course. Now, it is a given that yellow-eyed vampires can stay in control while closely mingling with humans and for many, many decades if not centuries, and even for a SHORT TERM intimately like the Denali’s without casualties, therefore I could see how the family could, and IMO did, think that Bella could be around them for a limited time until her deathbed experience occurred. But the plan was never to be long term as Edward IRRATIONALLY wished.
Further, if yellow-eyed vampires value the preciousness of human life it would be illogical to jump to the conclusion that they would change that precious life, even with the consent of a willing-human. And it would be illogical to believe that a human would want to be a yellow-eyed vampire and suffer severe painful thirst for all their would-be semi-immortal life/existence, unlike a red-eyed vampire who is able to quench their painful thirst in less than a minute. Which made sense to me, why many humans from the past and present of the Twi-Universe desired and volunteered to be red-eyed vampires. However, the irrevocable and unconditional powerful love that “singer”-Bella has for Edward, that can even eclipse the idea, and more importantly the fact, that she would be more than willing to suffer the unquenchable and severely painful vampire thirst until who knew when, is inconceivable at a glance and yes, even to the Cullens. Which is why, IMO, the Cullens and I believed automatically that, from looking or being told of Alice’s vision, Bella would be changed on her deathbed. The vision showed proof that Carlisle did get to her in time for her to have a successful transformation.
Furthermore and more importantly still, I respectfully and kindly say, nobody wants a loved one to die and many people do not want to die themselves. That being said, that still does not mean one would plan out one’s death in hopes of doing it in a convenient place and at a convenient time, and I would think more so if one is young and healthy as human-Bella was. Also, IMO, I don’t believe any of the Cullens would have turned Bella when she was old and more importantly I don’t think, at that point, Bella would have wanted to be changed, therefore she would have died. And yes, Edward would have suffered immensely to say the least. In any event, Alice’s vision makes the subject of Bella possibly being turned before she died of old age moot. She obviously wasn’t going to die of old age so the Cullens would have no reason to ponder on that subject.
6. When Emmett thinks to Edward [Way to keep your mouth shut, kid. Rosalie wants to rip your tongue out. I sighed. “Sorry I left you to deal with that. Are you angry with me?” “Naw. Rose’ll get over it. It was bound to happen anyway.” With what Alice sees coming . . ] I interpret this to mean Bella was going to be in on every facet of their secret. Especially, when they all knew she would eventually become one of them.
Regarding the paragraph, when you say, “So it seems logical to me that some of them, . . . . . . . There is no mention that he thinks this will be caused by her being on her deathbed, so I don’t think he considered that . . . .”.
I would like to point out there is no mention that he does think the cause of Bella’s transformation will be without her deathbed. So logically since Carlisle and none of the other Cullens come out and directly say if they think Bella’s transformation will be with or without her deathbed, at this point of the story, we are forced to consider what principles Carlisle used in his past experiences with the other’s he changed.
Regarding when I referred to Edward mother’s consent and you said “So that would indicate he might be willing to act with consent in other circumstances.”
Yup. The next person Carlisle changes with the consent of a another would be Emmett. And Bella, though she gave her self-consent, would have been next, though not because of her own deathbed but because of Edward’s potential deathbed, But, a deathbed nonetheless.
Regarding your response to Carlisle denying healthy-Bella’s request in the beginning of NM. You said, “It wouldn’t have been great for Edward and Bella’s relationship, nor Carlisle’s relationship with Edward, if he did it when Edward was so against it.” IMO, it would have been pointless for Carlisle to continue to let Bella down when they BOTH
knew she was going to become a vampire anyway and IMO they both knew it would be on her deathbed, though Bella keeps insisting the change be without her deathbed.
When I said “IMO, the dying circumstance element is what is always needed for Carlisle to act, not love” and you said “if that was the case, he never would have agreed to change her at the end of NM, because there was no imminent dying circumstance”.
Umm. Actually there was a dying circumstance it just wasn’t Bella’s it was Edward’s. Carlisle says, “you’ve left me no choice. You won’t live without her.” Carlisle was on board with Edward not to change healthy-Bella, but Edward has created a potential deathbed with his suicidal attempt and has cut in line of Bella's future deathbed. Consequently, Carlisle has to now tend to Edward's potential deathbed first and soon because if something happens to Bella there is no way to save Edward. Which ironically, has made Bella's future deathbed unneccasary for Carlisle to act. Subsequently, a potential deathbed is provided just not from the one expected. But a deathbed nonetheless. I think Carlisle and the family were not expecting Edward to behave as he did because of Bella's death. Otherwise, Carlisle would have concurred with Bella and change Bella in the 1st book. Also, Although the vision showed Bella was successfully changed Carlisle wasn't going to risk it because there was no back up plan if Edward was literally on his deathbed. Venom could not help him again and there would be no talking in the world that would convince Edward to stop.
Lastly, regarding your last paragraph, when you say, “But Carlisle’s views are a little different from Edward’s as SM has pointed out herself on this site. He doesn’t view Bella’s change as being as tragic as Edward thinks, because he has faith”.
Actually Carlisle and Edward’s views differ on the matter of the AFTERLIFE, not on the preciousness of a human life and how it should not be taken. Carlisle is only okay with changing the dying not the living. That's why before the end of NM Bella did not qualify to be changed, deathbed had not been provided, yet, until Edward, to his horror, ironically provided one.
PS I have edited my #10 paragraph about 2 hours after I posted.