Page 82 of 98

Re: Explorations

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:32 pm
by Tornado
Jazz Girl, I'm not sure if I agree with that entirely, although it is an interesting premise, and certainly a possibility, as we know he was able to stop drinking her blood at the end of the book. And here comes a lot of invisible ink, because it's all related to Midnight Sun. :roll: However, the vision which Alice had of him killing her did have specific detail of the meadow (which is how Alice is able to pinpoint where it happens after Edward has invited Bella to the meadow: "It's the same place," Alice thinks), but the vision of Bella being a vampire has only Alice and Bella with their arms around each other. So I think that indicates that they happen at different times. I think if Edward had lost control in the meadow, he would indeed have killed her, and Bella being changed was, according to Alice's vision, something that happened at a later time.

Alice's visions are based on decisions, but they're frequently spur-of-the-moment decisions, or perhaps current thinking decisions is a better way to put it. For example, she couldn't see what happened with Tyler's van until the moment he decided to take the ice too fast, and her vision of Bella's twin future disappeared while Edward was trying his best to stay away from her, implying that his decision to detach himself from her stopped that dual future from being a possibility.

I think that the reason Alice was able to see Bella's dual future is because both Bella and Edward were already attracted to each other enough that they were unable to stay away from each other. This is backed up by what Alice says at the meeting: "The one thing he can't do is stay away from her. That's a lost cause."I think it was the same for Bella. Even though Edward stopped talking to her for a whole month she was still obsessed with him, and was miserable and dreaming about him the whole time. She was as far gone as he was. It was effectively love at first sight (or perhaps second!) for them, and after that moment, they were unable to stay away from each other, resulting in the inevible dual future of either Bella being killed by Edward in a loss of control, or by being changed into a vampire at a later stage.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:22 am
by Jazz Girl
Tornado~ I completely agree with all of your points. I just read them as furthering the possibility that the initial visions dealt with Edward's loss of control rather than some specific informed decision by any of them. At the point at which we see the vision, yes, Bella is completely intrigued by Edward, curious about everything about him. So, regardless of how she feels about his silent treatment, she wants to know more about him and would jump at the chance to be alone with him... somewhere like, say, the meadow? And, by the time we see the vision, Edward is starting to understand that he cannot be separated from Bella, that it would be angony to endure. So, he is already considering not only staying, but continuing his discussions with her. He makes the choice to try to ignore her essentially as a direct result of Alice's vision. But, he can't run away because e has to stay to protect the family, though he also stays to protect her. And, as long as he's staying, approaching her, getting to know her and understand her better might actually serve him better in the end, or so says his logical side. After all, as Alice says, staying away from her for good is not an option. Thus, even if he hadn't decided it conciously, he was eventually going to give in and approach her again. And, we know that he is already familiar with the meadow, that it is a place he visitied. So, again, even if not considering it conciously, the possibility that a fleeting thought of taking Bella to the meadow went through Edward's head is actually pretty likely.

With those facts as a givens, the next factor is Edward's mastery of his bloodlust which, in my mind (and in Edward's), is a tenuous tightrope that he is constantly walking. So, focusing on the point in time when we see the vision, he had made a decision to approach Bella, but had not yet decided that he cannot hurt her and IS strong enough to resist her (as he later discovers in the meadow), leaving open the possibility of the perfect reflection of Alice's first vision. That is where the road forks, so to speak. Because, if Edward is strong enough NOT to kill her in the meadow, then comes option B; Bella and Alice as immortal best friends. Given the way Alice's visions shift, particularly the way they were shifting that day (whether because of the fuzzy future or of her trying to block Edward), not seeing the two options presented as opposing points of the same exact time doesn't cancel out the possibility that they were results of the same decision point.

Put simply, Alice saw the result of whether or not Edward was strong enough not to kill Bella in the meadow. If he wasn't, then her life ends there and that would be the last vision Alice would have of her. But, if he was strong enough and was able to pull away (or was pulled away), then Bella becomes immortal and Alice would be able to see further into her future then the point at which she dies in option A. Alice gets a new bestie and her vision of the two of them in the future beyond the meadow is confirmation of that.

Where the whole thing turns into a tangled ball of 70 strands of Christmas lights is when the third option, the one no one actually truly considers possible, happens. If you think about it, we see the decision point on which Alice's vision turns. It is the moment in the meadow when Edward runs from her. Not only is he strong enough not to kill her, he's strong enough not to attack her at all. And that is when the visionary waters, though they remain clear, get all choppy and churned up with the additional issue of informed choices and compromised principles.

(I do hope my semi-vague language makes sense. I would absolutely hate doing an entire post in invisible ink.)

Re: Explorations

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:16 am
by Tornado
Hm, I think I understood all that ...

Re: Explorations

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:24 am
by corona
Alice's vision comes in two parts, though; there is Pink Bella and Pale Bella, and Pink shows up first.

I too saw the dual visions as the outcome of a single decision point. Pink, though, showed me that Bella was Edward's destiny, and Pale showed destiny's outcome. Bella does not come out of the meadow dead or very thirsty, she comes out pink and warm.

I subscribe to Tornado's understanding of the vision. True, no conscious decision was made, but Alice's vision comes anyway because the attraction and inevitability of their relationship was just that strong. A little bending of the vision rules there.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:58 pm
by Tornado
Yeah, what he said! ;)

Re: Explorations

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:27 pm
by Jazz Girl
Corona~ First, Just to be clear, I don't believe what Alice saw was what would happen in the meadow, but what would happen as a result of the decision made in the meadow. If Edward had decided to kill her, it would have been right then and you have the Alice's first vision. If he decides not to kill her, then you have vision number 2.

I do see where you might look at the image of human Bella and Alice arm in arm as more crucial. But, in all honesty, I don't put much stock in that initial image because of the conversation that they are having at the moment she shows it to Edward. The dynamic of the conversation leads me to believe it is much more similar to the vision she shows Aro of Edward&Bella which earns their release from Volterra then it is to the image that slips past her mental wall and ends up in Edward's head, precipitating this whole discussion. I think the image of her and "Pink Bella" arises out of her convincing Jasper that she and Bella will be friends, perhaps even as a result of it. For example: (just playing a little theory of the devil's advocate, here) she wants to prevent a fight between Edward and Jasper and knows the fastest way to back Jasper down is a direct request, but she has to have a reason so she doesn't look like she's taking Edward's side. Alice has already taken a liking to Bella while watching her at school and talking to Edward about her, so a friendship isn't out of the question. Maybe she considers following through on talking to her herself at school and, voila, an image of Alice and PinkBella having a snuggly chat. Alice is not above manipulating her visions if it moves her towards the outcome she wants, or thinks is best. Of course, that might move us back to the question of who was on whom's side and how did it effect their voting... Oy, that Alice, how she can complicate things.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:12 am
by Tornado
Jazz Girl, I can't remember anything in New Moon that indicates what Aro actually saw when he read Alice's mind. I know that they put a vision of both Edward and Bella in the movie version, but the book, if I remember correctly, doesn't say whether he saw Edward and Bella or Bella and Alice, or only Bella. The only thing it makes clear is that he saw Bella becoming a vampire. So it's possible that this image of Alice and Bella is what he saw.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:45 pm
by Violet Sunlight
Hello everyone, :wave:

I would like to begin by saying I did not link the vision of red-eyed Edward holding dead human Bella with the vision of vampire-Bella. I interpret them to be separate, two different paths.

Jazz Girl ~ I agree with your 5/29/12 monkey wrench alternative. :D Whatever the cause of Bella’s imminent death circumstance, whether it was at Edward’s hand, another car accident, a plane crash etc., etc., all I know is that the vision where Bella is a vampire one would have to conclude Carlisle got to her in time, otherwise there would be no vision of vampire-Bella.

corona ~ I am responding to your 5/29/12 post. Most of my responses to your post are made below in my responses to Tornado’s post. I just wanted to comment on your last two paragraphs with two responses.

Regarding your comments about Jasper, when you say, "When he votes "Yes", he is probably thinking that Bella has no idea what she is really asking for (and I'm sure he doesn't like voting against his brother)".: Awwwe, I thought the vote explanation he gave in the NM movie was a good one. Especially, if one takes into account how ashamed and responsible he felt for wanting to kill Bella right before the vision, attacking Bella in NM and on her birthday and causing her break up which caused her to go to Volterra to save suicidal Edward.

Regarding Rosalie and when you say "Rosalie may have a good argument against making the change and could conceivably establish a well principled vote of "No", but she doesn't make one, she simply tells Bella she didn't get a choice, so Bella doesn't get one either.": That is certainly a reasonable way of interpreting Rosalie’s feelings towards her “NO” vote. I actually thought it was the most selfless she has ever been. She could have put her principles on the side and voted "Yes" because she felt she owed Bella for putting her in danger when Bella had to go to Volterra, but she did not. Lastly, as it is mentioned throughout the books, Rosalie values humanity far too much to ever just discard it. She would even give up her beloved Emmett to get it back. Bella's wishes pale incomparison to that.

Tornado ~ I hope you don’t mind, I know I said my last post was going to have my last points on the subject but I can’t help myself, you bring up so many great points I want to respond to all of them. Also, I am not going to use the quote feature in an attempt to squeeze as much as I can in one post and for me it is a little bit more comfortable when preparing a long post not to use it. So I have made 11 points to your 11 responses.

1.Regarding your first paragraph, when you say, “she and the Cullens were happy with that choice . . . .”, my response is: Nevertheless, though Bella happily made the informed choice and made it towards the END of the 1st book, her informed choice did not compel Carlisle to make the offer to sire her. And yes, some of the Cullens happily supported her choice, and probably were happy they had prior knowledge of her consent, unlike their respective imminent death circumstances. However, like I said before, something else was needed, the choice did not have enough weight. Deathbed still required by Carlisle. Although, Carlisle at least was flexible enough to amend his requirement, it didn’t even have to be Bella’s deathbed. Ironically, it would be a vampire’s potential deathbed that would finally compel Carlisle to make the offer to Bella. Yes, his beloved son.

2.I don’t think the Cullens formed an opinion about Bella’s changing preference either when Alice told them about the vision. The way I interpret it, due to the Cullens prior history and due to the fact that moments before Alice’s vision, Edward thought to himself Rosalie ought to have known better, “Carlisle does not compromise”, it was a given that the family would assume her change would be similar to everyone Carlisle changed and yes it was a given that it would be Carlisle who changed her. Further, yes as you say, “the Cullens are well aware that someone does not have to be dying to be changed, even if that was the way Carlisle operated up until that stage, and waiting until she is on her deathbed is a risky thing to do”, of course, death is a risky ordeal, but Carlisle has made it his business to be the opposite of not just the bad red-eyed vampires but the good ones too. Who as we know, have been known to gamble the vampire secret and inform friends and relatives of their existence not to mention the offer to become one of them. And all because the vampire wants that human individual to be around as long as they exist, therefore they are offering the transformation with a clause that benefits them.

3. Regarding the paragraph when you said, “Let’s look at the situation”:
When Alice says, “Either he’ll kill her himself’----she turned to meet my gaze again, glaring----“which would really irritate me, Edward, not to mention what it would do to you---” she faced Jasper again, “or she’ll be one of us someday”. I don’t think Alice was referring to Bella’s death in general, I think she was referring to Bella’s death at the hands of Edward and yes it would have affected Edward profoundly and grievously, to say the least.

4.Regarding the paragraph when you say, “As a result, it would seem more logical to assume that Bella found out about the vampire life and wanted to join it . . . . .”:
Now, I agree that from the vision one can tell Bella has discovered the Cullens’ secret and is okey dokey about it, but I disagree that one would conclude Bella would desire to be a yellow-eyed vampire, (I’ll explain in my next paragraph) though I do believe, from the vision, one can tell she will join them when she finally is a vampire, of course. Now, it is a given that yellow-eyed vampires can stay in control while closely mingling with humans and for many, many decades if not centuries, and even for a SHORT TERM intimately like the Denali’s without casualties, therefore I could see how the family could, and IMO did, think that Bella could be around them for a limited time until her deathbed experience occurred. But the plan was never to be long term as Edward IRRATIONALLY wished.

Further, if yellow-eyed vampires value the preciousness of human life it would be illogical to jump to the conclusion that they would change that precious life, even with the consent of a willing-human. And it would be illogical to believe that a human would want to be a yellow-eyed vampire and suffer severe painful thirst for all their would-be semi-immortal life/existence, unlike a red-eyed vampire who is able to quench their painful thirst in less than a minute. Which made sense to me, why many humans from the past and present of the Twi-Universe desired and volunteered to be red-eyed vampires. However, the irrevocable and unconditional powerful love that “singer”-Bella has for Edward, that can even eclipse the idea, and more importantly the fact, that she would be more than willing to suffer the unquenchable and severely painful vampire thirst until who knew when, is inconceivable at a glance and yes, even to the Cullens. Which is why, IMO, the Cullens and I believed automatically that, from looking or being told of Alice’s vision, Bella would be changed on her deathbed. The vision showed proof that Carlisle did get to her in time for her to have a successful transformation.

5.Furthermore and more importantly still, I respectfully and kindly say, nobody wants a loved one to die and many people do not want to die themselves. That being said, that still does not mean one would plan out one’s death in hopes of doing it in a convenient place and at a convenient time, and I would think more so if one is young and healthy as human-Bella was. Also, IMO, I don’t believe any of the Cullens would have turned Bella when she was old and more importantly I don’t think, at that point, Bella would have wanted to be changed, therefore she would have died. And yes, Edward would have suffered immensely to say the least. In any event, Alice’s vision makes the subject of Bella possibly being turned before she died of old age moot. She obviously wasn’t going to die of old age so the Cullens would have no reason to ponder on that subject.

6. When Emmett thinks to Edward [Way to keep your mouth shut, kid. Rosalie wants to rip your tongue out. I sighed. “Sorry I left you to deal with that. Are you angry with me?” “Naw. Rose’ll get over it. It was bound to happen anyway.” With what Alice sees coming . . ] I interpret this to mean Bella was going to be in on every facet of their secret. Especially, when they all knew she would eventually become one of them.

7. Regarding the paragraph, when you say, “So it seems logical to me that some of them, . . . . . . . There is no mention that he thinks this will be caused by her being on her deathbed, so I don’t think he considered that . . . .”.
I would like to point out there is no mention that he does think the cause of Bella’s transformation will be without her deathbed. So logically since Carlisle and none of the other Cullens come out and directly say if they think Bella’s transformation will be with or without her deathbed, at this point of the story, we are forced to consider what principles Carlisle used in his past experiences with the other’s he changed.

8. Regarding when I referred to Edward mother’s consent and you said “So that would indicate he might be willing to act with consent in other circumstances.”
Yup. The next person Carlisle changes with the consent of a another would be Emmett. And Bella, though she gave her self-consent, would have been next, though not because of her own deathbed but because of Edward’s potential deathbed, But, a deathbed nonetheless.

9. Regarding your response to Carlisle denying healthy-Bella’s request in the beginning of NM. You said, “It wouldn’t have been great for Edward and Bella’s relationship, nor Carlisle’s relationship with Edward, if he did it when Edward was so against it.” IMO, it would have been pointless for Carlisle to continue to let Bella down when they BOTH knew she was going to become a vampire anyway and IMO they both knew it would be on her deathbed, though Bella keeps insisting the change be without her deathbed.

10. When I said “IMO, the dying circumstance element is what is always needed for Carlisle to act, not love” and you said “if that was the case, he never would have agreed to change her at the end of NM, because there was no imminent dying circumstance”.
Umm. Actually there was a dying circumstance it just wasn’t Bella’s it was Edward’s. Carlisle says, “you’ve left me no choice. You won’t live without her.” Carlisle was on board with Edward not to change healthy-Bella, but Edward has created a potential deathbed with his suicidal attempt and has cut in line of Bella's future deathbed. Consequently, Carlisle has to now tend to Edward's potential deathbed first and soon because if something happens to Bella there is no way to save Edward. Which ironically, has made Bella's future deathbed unneccasary for Carlisle to act. Subsequently, a potential deathbed is provided just not from the one expected. But a deathbed nonetheless. I think Carlisle and the family were not expecting Edward to behave as he did because of Bella's death. Otherwise, Carlisle would have concurred with Bella and change Bella in the 1st book. Also, Although the vision showed Bella was successfully changed Carlisle wasn't going to risk it because there was no back up plan if Edward was literally on his deathbed. Venom could not help him again and there would be no talking in the world that would convince Edward to stop.

11. Lastly, regarding your last paragraph, when you say, “But Carlisle’s views are a little different from Edward’s as SM has pointed out herself on this site. He doesn’t view Bella’s change as being as tragic as Edward thinks, because he has faith”.
Actually Carlisle and Edward’s views differ on the matter of the AFTERLIFE, not on the preciousness of a human life and how it should not be taken. Carlisle is only okay with changing the dying not the living. That's why before the end of NM Bella did not qualify to be changed, deathbed had not been provided, yet, until Edward, to his horror, ironically provided one.

PS I have edited my #10 paragraph about 2 hours after I posted.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:55 pm
by corona
JG, you certainly do have a number of those monkey wrenches at your disposal. Let me say at the outset that I prefer a more conventional view of Alice's vision, which was an accurate prediction of the decision point at the meadow in the middle of TW. For THIS particular vision, I believe SM allowed herself a great deal of flexibility on the normal rules regarding Alice.

But, she has done that before. Alice can and does have the more Mystical visions, ala Sybill Trelawney, such as finding Jasper and then the Cullens. In fact, I would consider both of those even more remarkable that the meadow vision. SM seemed to tighten the vision rules down as she progressed through the story.

Alice's very first vision of the meadow with Edward glittering in the sun and some indistinct figure in the background points to a reveal scene, which is what happened.

I agree, it doesn't make sense at all if we follow strict vision rules. We know from SM that she could not conceive of Edward ever revealing his nature to Bella. That meadow vision begs the conclusion, therefore, that whoever is in the meadow already knows. Soooo, the meadow vision actually predicts a sequence of events based on decisions that could not be predicted at the time, including the critical event of Jacob Black telling Bella what the Cullens really were. If anything, Jacob should have obscured that vision entirely once he entered the picture.

The dual visions are predicated on Edward being tested in the meadow, but Edward has no plans on such a test even when he first decides to take Bella there. He discards Alice's concern as being based on an old vision, no longer valid. It's Bella that actually instigates the test by lying to Jessica and Charlie about her weekend plans; Edward is tested because he knows he isn't in danger if he cannot resist. I am ASSUMING (because I don't have the damn book) Bella ends up getting closer than she should because Edward decides to reciprocate her reckless bravery and trust by pushing things as well, until Bella leans in too close to get a good whiff. A sequence of events leads to the decision point based initially on Bella deciding to put all her chips in.

In simpler terms (which I should have used first) if Bella had told Edward that Jessica and Charley knows she is with him, then the meadow scene is altered because Edward's guard is up (as he believes it should be) and the "test" never happens. Otherwise, Bella's reckless trust would be just a dramatic flair that has no real consequences, and I have to believe that SM put it there for a reason.

Soooo, the dual visions predict Bella would do that (my view), push Edward to the brink where he was in danger of failure, but it shouldn't have until she made that decision. The visions predate that decision.

I know this sounds so lame, but don't blame me for story logic conflicts. In my opinion, this particular Alice vision is more like a Harry Potter prophecy. And Bella does wind up with a scar that is only removed upon her "death". I'm thinking of a Slytherin joke now regarding Voldemort and Isle Esme, but I'd have to post that on the Gutter.

Violet Sunlight, I just saw your post, I'll respond later.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:05 am
by Tornado
Violet Sunlight, I think we will agree to disagree, then. The only point I will make is in your comment about Edward at the end of New Moon. No, there was not an imminent death circumstance. He was not standing there with the Volturi or the wolves prepared to pull him apart and burn him on the spot. He could have lived very happily with Bella for years waiting for the imminent death circumstance which you believe must be necessary before Bella will be changed. But they agree to change her before that comes, because they know she is willing to be changed. But she doesn't have to be changed at that point, or even after graduation. As Edward himself says, the Volturi might take years to visit, so why not wait until that imminent death circumstance for Bella, rather than change her after graduation? But Carlisle decides against that, and agrees to change her once she moves out of Charlie's house, no imminent death circumstance required.