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Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:30 pm
by Jazz Girl
See, this is why I feel almost bereft at missing the beginnings of a conversation... But, I thought, what the hay. I'll pop in, drop off a few thought bubbles and see what happens.

Corona~ I actually agree with you, both on Edward's territoriality when it came to biting Bella, and on the Rosalie issues. In dealing with the Edward issue first, it's base instinct. Vampires are, at their core, merely steps above predatory animals. Yes, they look, thing, reason, and can act human. But, even for the golden-eyes, strip all of their humanity away and they are instinct-driven animals who mate for life. In the animal world, mated pairs will defend their mates to the death without batting an eyelash, no matter the cicrumstance. Animals are known to kill their own young for getting to close to the body of a dead mate. Can you imagine if, when push came to shove, Carlisle stepped forward to (in Edward's eyes) kill Bella? No, I don't think even iron-will-controlled, highly evolved Edward would have been able to stand that. He wanted to tear Mike Newton limb from limb for even looking at her. But, better yet, I think Carlisle understood that better than anyone. It's why he was so plain and upfront about being able to turn Bella. He knew, in a way, that he had to force Edward's hand to at least start the conversation Edward was so steadfastly avoiding. I think he understood that, once Edward and Bella were able to start having the discussion, that would be the key to bringing Edward around.

Now, as for Rosalie, good gods, give me strength. I seriously count her almost as bad as Jacob. To me, self-absorbtion is an awful sin, and that woman takes it to levels never before seen. The irony, of course, is that she suffered from the same delusion that Edward did in not seeing how deep the love between Edward and Bella goes. But, that it is for selfish reasons is what separates the two for me. I know that there are many who see both Jacob and Rose find redemption in Breaking Dawn. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that you and I are similar in not subscribing to that theory.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:52 pm
by corona
Jazz Girl wrote:I know that there are many who see both Jacob and Rose find redemption in Breaking Dawn. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that you and I are similar in not subscribing to that theory.
For Jacob and Rosalie, I would suscribe that they might have found redemption, but we aren't allowed to see it, so it is something that has to be assumed if one is so inclined (which I'm not). I'm defining redemption as something more than just being made happy by favorable circumstances.

My own view is that it was left for a future series, if one is ever written.

Truthfully, though, would you want to see a warmer, more thoughtful Rosalie in the Nessie Chronicles, or would you want to see her giving Jacob hell?

Re: Explorations

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:35 pm
by Jazz Girl
corona wrote: Truthfully, though, would you want to see a warmer, more thoughtful Rosalie in the Nessie Chronicles, or would you want to see her giving Jacob hell?
Well, I can't say I'd want to see Rose turned into some weird, pale, June Cleaver type. But, seeing her own her bs and at least develop some sort of even partial understanding that the world exists beyond her reflection would be nice. That doesn't mean that she has to stop giving the mongrel his comeuppance. I'm pretty sure he'll always be doing one thing or another that needs to be called out. It's in his nature. The irony that it is usually Rose who calls out the pup for his self-centeredness and self-indulgence is never lost on me.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:53 am
by Tornado
I'm the same, Jazz Girl, with feelings for Jake and Rosalie, although I must confess I think Rosalie is worse. And while I think it likely Jacob came around a bit in BD, I don't think Rosalie did much more than think she could finally 'like' Bella a bit because she'd made her an aunt, and that was better than what Rosalie had before. For Rosalie, it's never about anything other than herself, and I just can't stand that, and the way she uses it in BD particularly, made me want to commit homicide. Not that Emmett would have let me near her!

Re: Explorations

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:40 am
by Violet Sunlight
Hello everyone, :wave:

corona ~ I am responding to your 6/7/12 post.

I agree Rosalie has, as you say “tunnel vision”. Though, I believe the tunnel vision has a pro and a con.:
-The con is her self-absorption, taught by her parents, that produces all those negatives character traits, that were intensified in the vampire change which subsequently leaves her incapable of maturing out of.
-The pro is her relentless tenacity for human life that helped saved Nessie. Not to mention, countless others that would have fallen victim to her vampire thirst, especially while newborn.
corona wrote:
Has she considered this:

* She will have to leave the Cullens behind. She loves each of them.
* She will have to leave Emmett.
* Emmett will likely go suicidal at some point.
* Tick tock. How long is it going to be before Rosalie can even consider dating again?
* Will she settle simply on some genetic donor for her children?
* Could she ever be happy again?
* Could she pretend that her vampire life just didn't happen?

I think it would be useful for her to think of these things. Not in case the opportunity ever comes up, it never will, but to realize and accept that her life has changed and that she needs to move on. I think she is incapable of maintaining any thought for more than a few seconds that renders her in a bad light or makes her responsible for something she would otherwise not want.
You know I couldn't resist responding to your points here. So here we go:
:) *Yes, human-Rosalie would suffer the loss of her family. But, she could stay in contact with them via modern technology and maybe once in a while they could visit her.
:cray: *Yes, human-Rosalie would have had to leave Emmett. I think human-Rosalie would have mourned the loss, though would have been able to find healing while never forgetting him.
;) *Human-Rosalie dating, I think she would start dating within 2yrs of being human. Her “tunnel vision” would have helped her in that.
:nea: *No, I don’t think she will settle for a genetic donor for her children. I think she will search for a loving husband who wants to grow old with her and wants to start a family ASAP.
:D *Yes, human-Rosalie could be happy again. It would be a different happiness than before. But yes, human-Rosalie could be happy at being CURED from the vampire thirst, though she would not have Emmett by her side and have another loving husband. I guess her dream again would be, a somewhat half-dream in her human life. She could have her children but no Emmett. Although, she would have another loving husband who would be the father to her children and could grow old with her and share further happiness of being grandparents.
:no: *No, human-Rosalie could not pretend her vampire life didn’t happen. People that have lost loved ones don’t pretend they never existed, they still have a place in their hearts for them.

But, even if all this was not in store for human-Rosalie, and she had to face being childless and/or divorce, despair, disease and death, I still think she would leave the vampire life and be human if she could. Further, I’m inclined to believe she thinks about all of this an awful lot.

Regarding Rosalie’s NM thoughts:

When you say, “First, Rosalie can’t fathom the idea of losing Emmett. [ I thought she could leave him behind, though?]"

Rosalie can’t fathom the thought of losing Emmett while remaining a vampire, but as soon as she would be human she could start the mourning, grieving and healing process for the loss. Also, regarding her NM actions, she made the reverse mistake that Edward made. One of the reasons Edward left in NM was because he underestimated the irrevocable and unconditional human love that Bella felt for a vampire and Rosalie underestimated Edward’s unchanging vampire-mate-bond love for a human. Though, once they both realized their mistakes they sincerely apologized in their own ways. However, I do agree with you that Rosalie is incapable of any character growth due to her vampire state.

Lastly, though I DON’T agree with all of Rosalie’s thoughts and actions, I always see her as a person/character stuck with a painful illness that killed half of her dream before it even had a chance to see the light of day and more importantly an illness that was brought to her by others. Sometimes that’s what happens with people who deemed their life perfect before the horrific event, that changes everything, occurs. Sometimes it incapacitates them mentally, physically and sometimes both. She was raped, and left for dead on the streets and changed to a vampire. Maybe she would have been a little different if her death was due to disease, suicide or animal attack, not purposefully done by others as in her case. In one day Rosalie’s life and death were violated, giving birth to the Rosalie we have before us. Frozen with intensified and unchanging self-absorption (that IMO, is not always a bad thing) and many painful regrets. Further, all the while, mingling with the CURE (humanity) to her ever present painful and repulsive condition (vampire-thirst) that will NEVER be afforded to her. Mercifully though, she was able to have part of her dream in Emmett and somewhat in Nessie.

PS Everyone - I will post again on Monday.

Have a wonderful weekend,
Violet Sunlight

Re: Explorations

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:12 pm
by Tornado
There is another thing Rosalie might need to consider. Her main regret for the human life she's lost seems to be the opportunity to have a family of her own, but even if she is human again, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. What if she can't have children? What if her husband (whether Emmett or someone else) can't have them? It's by no means a certainty that, just because she's human, she'll be able to have them.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:01 pm
by Violet Sunlight
Hello everyone, :wave:

Tornado ~ As I said last week, human-Rosalie could adopt if she were not able to conceive a child for whatever reason. As a human, there are options to become a mother.:-D

But, as I said in my previous post, even if she were not able to be a mother at all for whatever reason :( , I still think she would leave the vampire world behind if she could. But, this is just my opinion and theory.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:01 pm
by corona
VS, After reading your other comments, I have to say you convinced me, Rosalie is a "Jacob girl". :o Much of what you said mirrored the arguments for Bella choosing Jacob. Ironic, isn't it?

I can't really quibble with your reasoning. I just have a few clarifications. When I say "genetic donor", I'm thinking along the lines of another Royce, someone she doesn't really love but who is capable of giving her children. Once human, she doesn't really have a lot of time to transition from Emmett mode to human mode.

Rosalie is incredibly shallow and vain, but she knows that, and I think she sees children as her redemption, selfless love. But, how do you get to the children part (and mother part) without getting a man first? Emmett's view of Rosalie isn't going to be the view of other human men necessarily. She was incredibly lucky in that regard. I fear she may end up in a loveless marriage. I'm not saying another Royce, but what kind of men is she going to attract?

And per Tornado's comment, what if she found she couldn't have children anyway? [Edit: I agree, adoption might be suitable to her as well.]

I get your point, though. Assuming that Rosalie literally means it when she says she wishes someone had voted NO for her, even with Emmett sitting right there beside her, then she would rather be in the grave than living the life she has with Emmett. And she does repeat that view in EC. If so, then all other considerations are moot.

P.S. Rosalie pays the price for getting her humanity back. She has been locked inside a blazing furnace for the past 100 years. The screaming has never stopped, but it's finally over. Rosalie steps out.

Rosalie: Oh my God! Look at me! I'm a human again! What a horrific price to pay, but I'm finally human!
Emmett: Oh Rose, I've been waiting for you all this time. It's really you!
Rosalie: Emmett? What are you doing here? I thought you would have moved on?

[Emmett bites Rosalie]

Rosalie [screaming again]: Emmett, what have you done?
Emmett: Rosalie, I love you so much. Now that I know this actually works, we can do it again, but this time...together.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:03 pm
by Tornado
Yes, but Rosalie can also adopt as a vampire. Isn't that what Carlisle and Esme did? While they would, in that case, not be children in the physical sense, there are still plenty of ways she could nurture them and help them grow, and they would have an advantage over a human family in the fact that she would be always likely to have them with her. But, it seems to me, that Rosalie's desires are based around what she considers an ideal, not reality. Even human children grow up - all too quickly. They would be adults with her before she knew it, anyway. The sweet little picture of family with little children is not one that lasts forever, no matter how long you live.

Re: Explorations

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:54 pm
by Jazz Girl
I find the whole discussion of Rose's desire to have children rather ironic, honestly. Rose, the most selfish and vain of them all, as a mother? Even if she'd never been turned, the sefishness and vanity were her most pronounced character traits as a human, as well. Before Royce showed his true colors, Rosalie loved being the belle of the ball, so to speak. She chose Royce because he was the richest and most powerful and brought her the most status and attention. She wanted a child not because she wanted someone to love unconditionally or because she wanted a beautiful tangible result of the love between her and her husband, but because it was the happiness her friend Vera had and she didn't. Her vanity couldn't accept that this woman, who she honestly saw as less worthy than her, had something she did not. Rosalie loved the idea of baby, not the reality of one. She loved the idea of a happy family, not the reality of one. A happy family takes work, and the Rosalie we glimpse... she's not ready for that kind of work. Even if the worst had never happened, if Royce had merely been a jerk, a philanderer or something else, instead of a rapist and murderer, Rose never would have... could have had the happiness Vera did. The moment that baby started taking attention away from Rose, she'd have resented the hell out of it. The moment she started to gain weight, or when she couldn't fit back into her clothes after she or he was born, she'd have been livid.

Even in her fantasy of what her life would be like after she married Royce, she didn't picture herself mothering and loving and playing with her children, she pictured herself watching her children play "on the huge lawns of the Kings' estate." (EC~Kindle Saga, loc 17502) There is a very distinct difference. The same is true with Ness, from a certain perspective. Rosalie wasn't fighting for the sanctity of life. She didn't give a damn if Bella died. She was fighting for her little fantasy, completely ignoring the messy and painful reality of bringing that new life into the world because she didn't have to do it. And, even after Ness is born, she uses Ness' affection almost as a weapon, particularly against the mongrel. She's willing to share with the rest of the family, well aware of her position as aunt rather than mother. But what choice does she have?

In the end, I think saying that Rose could find happiness if returned to her human state and able to have child... that's a massive leap to make. Honestly, one of the people I've always felt the most sympathy for in the entire Saga is Emmett. I want to believe she's just a completely different person behind closed doors. But, I just can't see it.