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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

yeah let's just leave it at that.

i think with the truck thing, i find his ACTIONS to be wrong. i don't think he had the right to forbid bella to do anything, and it really made me furious when he went so far as to "kidnap" her and take apart her truck. it came off as him thinking he was in control of her, and he was an authority over her, which he is not. THAT i find wrong.

his fear though? no. misguided? yes. a tiny bit, what's the word? ignorant? maybe, since he didn't take the time to really ask bella what was up with the wolves and stuff and really really think about his decision. but i don't fault him for FEELING like he wanted to do those things. it's the actual DOING them i have a problem with. because, in all honesty, i'd want to do all that too. the thing is, i wouldn't, because i know it's not up to me.

i think in that situation edward had EVERY right to tell bella "look, i'm really uncomfortable with this, and if you go see him, it's going to make me very angry, etc. etc. etc." and then bella could make her choice and deal with the consequence, whatever that may be. but he had no right to essentially make the choice for her. she needed to have that choice.

jacob's situation was a little bit different, since technically he wasn't ALLOWED to tell her anything, you know? and once he saw how much it was hurting her, he figured out a way to fix it, remember? edward didn't do that. but either way, i think it was sort of more out of jacob's control, if that makes sense.

yeah, i agree with you about the son thing. it just seemed like their relationship wasn't one in which anyone was a "son". i think SM just stuck that in at the end cuz it sounded cool, to be honest.
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death cannot stop true love, it can only delay it for a while...
Lunna-san
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by Lunna-san »

Kachiti wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:i'm entirely too sick of people misinterpreting the things that i say.

i have never said that bella and edward's feelings of unhappiness over the situation with jacob and nessie was anything but understandable and natural. check that. you'll see it's true.

however, i have said that the way edward spoke to and of jacob afterwards irritated me, and bella's ACTIONS - not feelings - were out of control and ridiculous. seth's broken shoulder should have been jacob's. and that's just not fair.
I think Luuna-san response was the best answer to this. I will add that Bella is a new born which had a lot to do with her reaction to the whole imprinting. I believe Edward stated that fact and Bella was so sorry about what had happen to Seth.
Thank you. I didn't mean to offend anyone, please. I think it's just normal we desagree. But it's such un impossible situation that is difficult to predict how we would react if this happened with our child. I believe SM wrote that way to soft things a bit. I like that scene, it's quite funny, actually. But it's just me.
holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

i don't think the way bella and edward reacted and treated jacob was funny in any way, personally. but that may be due to the fact that i like jacob. i take it you don't.

you certainly did not offend anyone. i just think that it was sort of out of place, story line wise. i guess i expected better from edward, if that makes sense? i know bella has no loyalty whatsoever, but edward seemed to be better about that. it struck me as odd that even though their relationship had progressed so much, it took so little to regress.

i found it interesting that edward said "just because i understand it, doesn't mean i have to like it" because i almost find that a little hypocritical. i mean, you could follow that same line of thought and say that just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean he doesn't have to maintain a certain level of respect.
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death cannot stop true love, it can only delay it for a while...
Kachiti
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by Kachiti »

Auctorita, if you go back to Eclipse and read the chapters after the graduation party to the end of the book. I think that will answer your question on why Edward called him brother and for the record he meant it.

Bloodlust, holdingoutforjacob and Auctorita I think your missing the point the son angle. The imprinting thing was an irritation for both Bella and Edward but for different reasons. Bella reasons aside she came to accept it. Edward on the other hand didn't until it look like they weren't going to make it. Why? First he had to deal with Jacob's feelings for his wife while she was human. There wasn't a lot Edward could do about it because it was his fault. Then while he's trying to save his wife, Jacob imprints on his daughter before he's even had a chance to bond with her. Now from what I've read and seen, fathers can be possessive of their daughters. The father is usually the "first man" in the daughter life before some other guy comes around. But in Edward's cause he doesn't even get that. There is nothing he can do about it but he doesn't has to accept it and so he doesn't. Then we get to battle scene and things are not looking so good for them. Bella's is going to send Nessie off with Jacob and Edward hears this. That's when he finally accepts the whole imprinting thing because he knows that Jacob will take good care of her. She couldn't be in better hands. So when calls Jacob, son. It was Edward's way of saying okay Jacob I accept you.

And the truck thing I so agree with you. I was pissed off by Edward did. Talk about going way overboard.
Frustrated love has been the incentive for many great works.
Kachiti
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by Kachiti »

Thank you. I didn't mean to offend anyone, please. I think it's just normal we desagree. But it's such un impossible situation that is difficult to predict how we would react if this happened with our child. I believe SM wrote that way to soft things a bit. I like that scene, it's quite funny, actually. But it's just me.[/quote]


Lunna-san, I also thought it was funny, and I think that's what SM intended.
Frustrated love has been the incentive for many great works.
*Bloodlust*
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by *Bloodlust* »

holdingoutforjacob wrote:his fear though? no. misguided? yes. a tiny bit, what's the word? ignorant? maybe, since he didn't take the time to really ask bella what was up with the wolves and stuff and really really think about his decision. but i don't fault him for FEELING like he wanted to do those things. it's the actual DOING them i have a problem with. because, in all honesty, i'd want to do all that too. the thing is, i wouldn't, because i know it's not up to me.
See, I don't agree with this completely. "Ignorant" doesn't seem like a good word to use. I DO agree that what he did was not the right thing to do, BUT what he did do, to him, seemed like the only thing to do. See, Edward was caught between a rock and a hard place. He was used to new werewolves being violent and uncontrollable. And from what he had experienced first hand, he wasn't about to lose Bella again. The only thing he could do, that would have been "right", would be to go with her to meet Jake in a neutral place.

(Actually, looking back on it, since the Quileutes aren't 'werewolves', what the heck was all the talk about actual werewolves not being able to control when the change. Wouldn't that mean they couldn't change unless there's a full moon? :? :? )
i think in that situation edward had EVERY right to tell bella "look, i'm really uncomfortable with this, and if you go see him, it's going to make me very angry, etc. etc. etc." and then bella could make her choice and deal with the consequence, whatever that may be. but he had no right to essentially make the choice for her. she needed to have that choice.
Edward can't be faulted for not giving her that decision. He didn't think Bella capable of making the right choice based on what he had come to understand about werewolves. How was he to know the Quileutes weren't the same? Even so, they can be dangerous. Look at Emily. At the same time, us as readers knew that there wouldn't be much danger, but Edward didn't. We have to be able to look at it how he saw it and based on that, I think he acted on the only rational action he could, as "wrong" and inaccurate as it was.
jacob's situation was a little bit different, since technically he wasn't ALLOWED to tell her anything, you know? and once he saw how much it was hurting her, he figured out a way to fix it, remember? edward didn't do that. but either way, i think it was sort of more out of jacob's control, if that makes sense.
Jake might not have been allowed to tell Bella, but he didn't have to ignore her. Though, again I'm not faulting him for doing it, I know why he did. I only used that analogy to question what you said about Edward. Edward didn't "fix it"? Um....no, I think he DID. I think Edward fixed a lot of things in Eclipse and there was A LOT to fix. Maybe not in the same way as Jake, but he definitely did. Have you forgotten his turning point in Eclipse, or the "point of manipulation" as some prefer?
WARNING: EDWARD CULLEN IS NOT EFFECTIVE BIRTH CONTROL! E<3B
holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

ignorant was a terrible word to use, i know, i stated that in that post, and all i meant by that was that he wasn't very informed.

edward DID need to give bella that choice. it wasn't his right to take that from her. even if she would have made the wrong choice, that's not his call. he can TELL her it's the wrong choice, show her, but he can't take the actual choice from her.

i guess we just look at it differently. i think it's wrong for edward to feel he has authority and control over her, you don't. correct?

as for jacob ignoring bella, sam demanded it. he ordered it. did you read "being jacob black" on SM's website? cuz it says so in there.

what i meant by jacob "fixing it" and edward not was that it took an extreme action on bella's part for edward to realize he COULDN'T control her. he didn't fix it on his own, he had to be forced by bella.
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*Bloodlust*
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by *Bloodlust* »

I guess one could argue Edward should have given Bella the choice. My point is that I think he took the only rational route that he saw, regardless of whether we view it right or wrong. That's where I cannot cast any blame on him.

Not quite. I don't think Edward feels like he has control over her. He feels compelled to protect her, which in the nature of the world, is going to cause him to try to control her. Who could possibly think it's right for someone to have authority and control over another? Once again, I'm only trying to see from his character's perspective. I don't agree with his actions either, I just cannot criticize them.

I have read the "Being Jacob Black" and I don't really recall that. I thought he only forbade Jake to tell Bella what was happening with the werewolf thing and it was in that Jake found the loophole.

As for the "fixing it", I guess you're only comparing the shapeshifter thing of New Moon and the visiting Jake thing of Eclipse. Since that's the case, fine. Ok.
WARNING: EDWARD CULLEN IS NOT EFFECTIVE BIRTH CONTROL! E<3B
Kachiti
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by Kachiti »

Jacob wasn't trying to ignore Bella on purpose. He's not allowed to tell by Sam but it had to with the treaty. The treaty forbid them from telling outsiders about themselves (werewolves or shapesifters) and about vampires plus other things. However, Jacob broke the treaty in Twilight when he told Bella the scary stories because to him at least they were nothing more then stories. So if Bella guessed, like she did with Edward then he would be okay, sort of.
Frustrated love has been the incentive for many great works.
holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Edward Cullen

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

i don't necessarily BLAME edward for what he did - i saw what he was trying to do, and why he did it, and i find it completely noble, and i completely understand and approve of his intentions. his intentions, his feelings, his anger, his fear, all were completely RIGHT. even the desire to be as controlling as he was was fine with me - that's natural.

it was the actual ACTIONS that were wrong. very very wrong. and the intentions don't correct that. i feel that while it's important to understand a character's intentions when they do something, and that can decide whether or not you LIKE them, it's also important to acknowledge where a character did wrong. now, just because the truck thing was very very wrong doesn't mean you have to hate him for it, or that i do. i'll acknowledge these smae things with jacob - i.e. the first kiss, etc.

if edward doesn't allow bella that choice he IS controlling her. and the fact that he felt that he could take that from her means that he DID feel he had some authority. in what way is it ok for a person's partner to take away their choices in any particular faction of their lives??? because that is what you are saying is ok here.

umm with the jacob "fixing it" thing i mean that he found that loophole, he refused to listen to sam, he wiggled around in his restrictions until it worked out ok for everyone and they were both happy. i see that as the time when he was hurting bella in the way edward did, that's why i'm comparing them. i feel like edward did not "fix" anything. bella flat out disobeyed him.

edward is sort of in the role of sam here. sam took away jacob's choice to see bella, because he thought it was dangerous. did he "fix" anything when jacob went to see her anyway? no. jake did. edward took away bella's choice to see jacob, because he felt it was dangerous. did he "fix" anything when bella went to jake? no. bella did.

as for sam's order, the alpha thing is funky. i'm pretty sure that he would have told jacob he couldn't see anyone outside the pack and family, because he didn't want the treaty broken. hence, bye bye bella. but since he had already broken the treaty with bella, he found that loophole. if he hadn't told her about the vampires, he wouldn't have been able to do anything.
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