Jacob Black

[twilight1909]

HOFJ, how is that not what Jacob did? He "bought the plant" by pursuing a friendship with the hopes of a blossoming love. He took care of her while always yearning for that sweet reward.
Jacob did naturally fall for her, but he also wanted to take Bella's heart away from Edward.

navarre, don't worry I still see the great parts of Jacob. Again, I don't fault who he is. I like Jacob well enough. It's his interference with true love that bothers me. I don't discount the fact that he saved Bella and put her back together after she fell to pieces. Still, he tried to win her over even when she was happily reunited with her soul mate.

[Visitor]

Visitor, your cocoa plant analogy is nice, but it doesn't work here. because you would have bought the plant because you wanted the chocolate..... which is not what jacob did.

Why can't people just accept that Jacob fell in love with Bella simply because people fall in love????????

You’re right HOFJ. Jacob did not buy the plant. What he did was worse. At least by buying the plant outright his motives would have been open and obvious. But when he took the time to nurture the plant, (i.e. Bella) in the guise of a Good Samaritan/ friend when what he truly wished was to gain something from it (i.e. her affections), then his actions cast a cloud over his already questionable conduct. Trying to force myself to believe that his bad acts were heroism despite my initial reactions, has always been a source of great frustration for me. The purpose of my previous post was to shed light on why I now believe I was unable to fully accept the idea of Jacob as Bella’s sympathetic rescuer.

Like I tried to explain before, if SM had written Jacob as a friend first (meaning in thought AND in truth), then his being with Bella, helping Bella, caring for Bella would have been the sweetest thing in the world. Because it would have come from a guy who did what he did wanting nothing in return except to see to the welfare of his good friend. If love then blossomed from THAT, then there would be no way to doubt the heroics of his actions. I’m only suggesting that by making Jacob’s character so obviously in-like with Bella from day one, SM may have inadvertently created an atmosphere wherein Jacob’s actions came across way more unheroic than originally intended.

I have no problem accepting the fact that Jacob fell in love with Bella. I understand perfectly that people cannot help who they fall in love with. My only problem as it pertains to sympathizing with/understanding his character is that despite what others may say . . .i.e.“Jacob did what he did because he was trying to save Bella.” . . . his feelings did not blossom out of a platonic friendship. Thus his actions in “saving” her appear more selfishly motivated and not nearly as gallant and sweet as first suggested. His loving her does nothing to remove the taint from bad acts when those acts are mostly selfishly motivated.

[SenorGimp]

Senor Gimp: If you read (or re-read) the 12 Chapters released of Midnight Sun, I think that it would go a long way to understanding Edward and his motivations better.
The reason that I've heard Stephenie Meyer state that she decided to write the book was because of the dislike and complete misunderstanding of Edward's motivations in doing some of the rather insane or puzzling things in Twilight. Then you can extrapolate that mind set to the other books. That NM excerpt with Rosalie's phone call also helps understand how much he was suffering by leaving Bella.

Mara Jade.. I have read midnight sun, or at least what SM has on her website, and as such feel a lot more in touch with the character that Edward Cullen was meant to be. I still don't excuse his actions, because to me he makes everything a lot harder than it needs to be, i.e., She loves you, you love her, why the **** would you run away from that, I don't care how much you think it's for her own good...
But I do like Edward's character, I merely try to voice the opinion of whichever side is striking a chord in me at that given time. Also, Midnight Sun not being an official part of the Twilight series, I feel that it would unfair to bring that perspective into the conversation, since it's not even supposed to be out yet.
Having said that, I truly adore both Edward AND Jacob's characters, I just think that, as someone else said before, Jacob made a lot of little mistakes, while Edward made a few HUGE mistakes, so I really feel more sympathy for Jacob, regardless of my satisfaction at the end result of Edwar's and Bella's reconnection, mainly because he tried HARDER. And I don't mean that to sound as though Edward didn't try, because we all know how hard it was for him to stand to be around Bella, let alone date her, kiss her, drink her blood and stop, consummate the relationship, etc., but he just took a giant step backward IMO when he left at the beginning of NM.

Visitor:
Damn, I was beginning to be known for my "novel-length posts" on here, but you have effectively trumped me..
I can totally relate to where you're coming from, in that his motivations to be with Bella were very clear from the get, but I have one little tidbit to point out.
Bella led him on from day one:
And by day one, I'm not talking about in New Moon, I mean the very first appearance he makes in the story, when Bella cranks up the 'charm', lures him off by himself, and flirts with him like crazy to get him to reveal forbidden family secrets. Now I know she needed to do this in order to figure out about the Cullens, but you can not deny that an older girl, pretty as can be, flirting with you shamelessly the first time you meet, well that would probably provoke a pretty strong reaction in anybody, and I don't like how you try to make JB seem like just some perve who's out for a piece.
That's wrong.
His love for Bella is genuine, and, despite your previous promulgations, he had a lot of time to be Bella's friend, get to know her, and spend time with her, PRIOR to making his 'move' on Bella, and if she hadn't been so preoccupied feeling sorry for herself, she would no doubt have developed similar feelings for Jacob too. Actually she did, it just took him kissing her to make her realize that. But I guess your point is that he should have viewed her platonically when first getting to know her, and then let himself love her and build up to something bigger?
That's all fine and good, but as I've already pointed out, Bella led him on from the get, so he didn't really have a choice in his feelings for her, because they were jumpstarted by a careless smile and bright eyes.
Anyway, I don't think your views on Jacob are completely valid, and I've only read the series once, so consider me your nemesis.. mwahahaha!!!
jk
I guess that's really all I've got for now
= )...

[Amethyst1]

I absolutely agree with you Vistor - I always agree with you.

I wonder in what context of “saving her life” is he wanting to achieve (rhetoric) It’s really off actually. I don’t understand the point of his character when the ending of the series is contradicting to what he is supposedly there to deliver. His constant inconsistency is overbearingly irritating.

SenorGimp - you continuously say that his actions are more justifiable. How so?

His frequent Freudian slips are obsolete, unsurprising, patterned…. Inconsistent, like I mentioned. He never learns from his mistakes. His “sorrys” are a sad way to redeem himself - when repeatedly he keeps making the same mistakes again. I don’t find them ok. His rudeness is unnecessary and quite annoying actually. And one thing that I really hate about his character is his arrogance towards vampires in general. His constant reference to them as non-existent people, filthy… The way he grew up is not an excuse. His excessive self-righteousness is rather disturbing considering he's a werewolf after all.

[Visitor]

In the response to the building chorus of voices asking me to shorten my posts, I’ll try to respond as succinctly as possible . . .

I don't like how you try to make JB seem like just some perve who's out for a piece.
That's wrong.

Uhhhh . . . Never said that. I have no problem with the way Jacob felt about Bella. I even agree that Bella led Jacob on. But neither of those things change the way I feel about his character. In fact, I’m not saying that I hate Jacob at all. He simply isn’t my cup of tea. But what I have said is that in reading the entire series, I no longer feel bound to believe the idea that Jacob’s bad actions were motivated by anything other than his own feelings for Bella. Not by an alleged desire to “save” her (It may be important to interject that SM and others have always defended Jacob’s conduct in Eclipse by blaming it on his need to keep his “friend” “safe”). Jacob had every right to love Bella, pursue her, spend time with her etc. . . . I am also reasonably sure that Jacob’s interest in Bella and desire to be around her were motivated by less than lecherous desires. It goes without saying that he is not a pervert. He is a 15/16 year old boy with a crush. I don’t fault him that. But I don’t have to like the way he went about getting the girl and I don’t have to feel sympathy or compassion for him in the wake of his failure in accomplishing his goal. As I stated before, SM has suggested in the past that Jacob’s bad behavior (forcing one kiss, manipulating another and just being an overall brat) should be forgiven because his intentions were to “save” Bella. My 2 posts above (and now this one ) are simply an attempt by me to explain why after 4 books, I still don’t believe that.

[holdingoutforjacob]

if you're going to refuse to believe what the AUTHOR tells you about HER characters there's no hope for you.

[holdingoutforjacob]

HOFJ, how is that not what Jacob did? He "bought the plant" by pursuing a friendship with the hopes of a blossoming love. He took care of her while always yearning for that sweet reward.
Jacob did naturally fall for her, but he also wanted to take Bella's heart away from Edward.

navarre, don't worry I still see the great parts of Jacob. Again, I don't fault who he is. I like Jacob well enough. It's his interference with true love that bothers me. I don't discount the fact that he saved Bella and put her back together after she fell to pieces. Still, he tried to win her over even when she was happily reunited with her soul mate.

no. he may have felt romantic interest when she led him on on the beach in twilight. but when he really "bought the plant" so to speak was in new moon, when Bella walked into his garage with the broken bits of her heart and a pair of motorcycles. and THAT was all about Bella, and keeping her safe and being a friend according to Stephenie Meyer.

[Visitor]

if you're going to refuse to believe what the AUTHOR tells you about HER characters there's no hope for you.

Ouch. That’s a little harsh. Do you keep that statement in mind when posting in the Edward thread? Because I guess the same can be said for those who continue to see Edward as a heartless, controlling, manipulative beast despite SM’s repeated insistence to the contrary. So does that mean people who think otherwise have less than valid opinions on the issue? I happen to think that Jacob was written in a way that makes it difficult for ME to love in the way that SM intended, so does that make my opinion less valid? What about folks out there who think like me? All I’ve done is taken the time to actually articulate the reasons for my opinion in a way that will hopefully shed light on what is sometimes a hard concept to understand.

I never said that SM does not know her characters. In fact, maybe the problem is that she shows her characters a bit too well. So well in fact, that she doesn’t always feel the need to extrapolate on certain aspects of their personalities for the sake of the story. Their motivations and intentions are clear to HER. But they have not always been clear to others. That’s the very reason behind why Midnight Sun came to be.

SM says Jacob is a great character with no nefarious purpose. I can understand her opinion and even agree with her opinion without being overwhelmed with feelings of love for the character that she created. Besides, when there are certain aspects of the book that just . . . ARE (i.e. Jacob behaving badly) then I am free to believe in the context of the story that his behavior comes across as selfish, if in fact that is how it is portrayed in the book. SM can tell me what she MEANT to convey. But in the moment of solo reading, I only have the text as my guide for forming my own opinions. Anything I learn after the fact can help shed light on certain aspects of the story and the characters, but it cannot change the action that was sketched out in detail within the story.

[holdingoutforjacob]

I do keep that in mind. I have never once, nor will you ever hear me say, that I think Edward is heartless or manipulative (as a habit, everyone is manipulative sometimes) or a beast. I fully understand and take into account EVERYTHING Stephenie has said about Edward, and I take it as fact.

If you are reading a scene with Jacob and your emotions tell you it's unfair, well that's your emotion. But at some point, something should make you wonder about his intent, motivation, etc. That's where SM comes in. When she says things like Jacob was in it to save Bella, then that's what he was in it for. There's no doubting that. As much as, when I'm reading Eclipse, I FEEL like Edward was being intentionally sneaky and mean and such, I KNOW that he wasn't, that he was only concerned with Bella's best interests, so on and so forth.

You didn't SAY that you found Jacob's interests to be selfish while you were reading certain scenes. You said that you didn't believe that his motive the entire time was to save Bella. And that, my dear, is just untrue.

I don't think an opinion that basically says that they disagree with the person who wrote the books about the motivations of the characters is particularly valid, no. I stand by that. When Malaz said that she felt that SM had lied about something, it was her opinion, she has a right to it, but no, I didn't find it particularly valid. I think she got that. If you're going to put out your opinion, and if you're going to say that basic fact is untrue, you should really be ready to take hits for that.

I love you Malaz!

[twilight1909]

no. he may have felt romantic interest when she led him on on the beach in twilight. but when he really "bought the plant" so to speak was in new moon, when Bella walked into his garage with the broken bits of her heart and a pair of motorcycles. and THAT was all about Bella, and keeping her safe and being a friend according to Stephenie Meyer.

Are you saying it was always just about being Bella's friend, or only in the beginning? According to Stephenie Meyer, Jacob's actions say otherwise throughout NM. Such as in the movie theater. Jacob proclaims his intent by saying "I'm prepared to be annoyingly persistent." True statement no doubt. It's like he's going to wait around forever or force himself on Bella. Oh wait, he does force himself on her a couple times. Like here:

Sure enough, as soon as I sat down, he shifted over to put his arm around my shoulders.
"Jake," I protested, leaning away. He dropped his arm, not looking bothered at all by the minor rejection. He reached out and took my hand firmly, wrapping his other hand around my wrist when I tried to pull away again.

He doesn't care that his affection makes Bella uncomfortable. And don't even get me started on his forced kiss with her... he's pushy, and not in a friendly way. We all know Jacob loves Bella, so how is it even possible that it's ALL about keeping her safe and being her friend? It's not.