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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:25 pm

Hmm. . . It depends. Greedy and possessive? Entirely possible because we’ve witnessed as much through and through in eclipse (and other books).

How he tattled to Charlie about the bikes to get Bella grounded so she wouldn’t be allowed to see Edward. Selfish. . . and extremely possessive. Would have been slightly controlling if it weren’t Charlie’s decision to ground Bella or not. How he kissed Bella against her will and manipulated another (greed). How he wanted and fought to win (although failed) Bella’s affections despite her being in an already committed relationship that she construed was not giving up (greed). . .

Controlling? Hard to say. It depends greatly to me mostly what the initial motivation was. So it’s moot. I can’t say for sure.

I can’t say if those are Jacob’s true traits or not, but he seems to have pretty good common ground with what he wants notwithstanding it being selfish or not.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:33 pm

I disagree.

The bikes was, in my opinion, spite/anger/revenge. It says as much in Being Jacob Black.

Kissing Bella against her will the first time was lust mixed with stupidity, the second time was desperation (it was his last chance to make her see she loved him too, not just a kiss at all, it's pretty clear if you can look objectively at that section, but i understand how that could be hard if you're a die hard edward fan.)

And pursuing Bella wasn't any of those. Was it greedy of Edward to pursue her?? Nope. Remember, when Jake really started to pursue her, Edward had broken up with her (in New Moon) but even then he was patient and more of a friend anyway. But in Eclipse, when he really started pushing hard, you have to keep in mind that he was using that as a platform from which to save her life. I think it is safe to say that if Edward had never left Bella, jacob never would have been involved, because it says in Being Jacob Black, in regards to Bella being with Edward during Twilight "It stung, but she looked happy, and I wanted her to be happy." Without any animosity at all. He even intends on apologizing to Edward for his father's actions during Twilight. So, I think that would indicate that he was respectful of that relationship until it almost killed Bella, and until her life was in serious danger. And yes, he did push his boundaries a little in New Moon, but it's not like he argued with her about it. He never mentioned it to her after one conversation I'm pretty sure. (All this can be found in Being Jacob Black). If he were truly greedy, he would have leapt at the opportunity to crash Bella's prom in Twilight, gone along with Billy's hatred of the Cullens, and not been able to let Bella go after the Ethics Chapter in Eclipse.

Plus I don't think it's fair to say it's greedy to go after the person you love. If it is than isn't anyone in love greedy??

It's just as you said, you'd need to keep the motivations in mind.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by SenorGimp » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:26 pm

"...Jacob", you're back!
I've been wondering why you've been so sparse lately, but it's good to have you back!
How's the story coming along?
And Amethyst, I think I like the new name better, it seems more fitting of the eloquent nature of your posts!
Nothing wrong with Malaz, mind, but I definitely like your new screen name!
I know that's totally Jacob unrelated, sorry, I will stop now :lol:
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navarre
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by navarre » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:34 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I disagree.

The bikes was, in my opinion, spite/anger/revenge. It says as much in Being Jacob Black.

Kissing Bella against her will the first time was lust mixed with stupidity, the second time was desperation (it was his last chance to make her see she loved him too, not just a kiss at all, it's pretty clear if you can look objectively at that section, but i understand how that could be hard if you're a die hard edward fan.)

And pursuing Bella wasn't any of those. Was it greedy of Edward to pursue her?? Nope. Remember, when Jake really started to pursue her, Edward had broken up with her (in New Moon) but even then he was patient and more of a friend anyway. But in Eclipse, when he really started pushing hard, you have to keep in mind that he was using that as a platform from which to save her life. I think it is safe to say that if Edward had never left Bella, jacob never would have been involved, because it says in Being Jacob Black, in regards to Bella being with Edward during Twilight "It stung, but she looked happy, and I wanted her to be happy." Without any animosity at all. He even intends on apologizing to Edward for his father's actions during Twilight. So, I think that would indicate that he was respectful of that relationship until it almost killed Bella, and until her life was in serious danger. And yes, he did push his boundaries a little in New Moon, but it's not like he argued with her about it. He never mentioned it to her after one conversation I'm pretty sure. (All this can be found in Being Jacob Black). If he were truly greedy, he would have leapt at the opportunity to crash Bella's prom in Twilight, gone along with Billy's hatred of the Cullens, and not been able to let Bella go after the Ethics Chapter in Eclipse.

Plus I don't think it's fair to say it's greedy to go after the person you love. If it is than isn't anyone in love greedy??

It's just as you said, you'd need to keep the motivations in mind.
Excellent point made, HOFJ.
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lauren00
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by lauren00 » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:40 am

it is greedy to go after the one you love, and not only, Bella loves Renesmee, she's HER daughter.


Not a good choice,Jacob. :(
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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:05 am

wait wait wait. malaz is amethyst?? well that explains it then.

Lauren00, you clearly do not understand imprinting, because Jacob didn't have a CHOICE as to whether or not he imprinted on Renesmee.
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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:56 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Plus I don't think it's fair to say it's greedy to go after the person you love. If it is than isn't anyone in love greedy??
Pursuing someone when that someone is in a relationship, is, in my opinion off limits. And if that person is so far gone as to wanting to break her up from her boyfriend and acting on it. . . well that is just an unflattering person.

In other words thankyou SenorGimp for the nice comment.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:24 am

but i wrote you an entire paragraph. did you bother reading it? because if you did, you'd realize that he didn't pursue her when she was in a relationship. he began pursuing her in new moon. when she was CLEARLY out of a relationship, and in Eclipse used it as a vehicle to save her life. at no point did he pursue her just for the sake of pursuing her while she was in a relationship. please read my entire posts, i don't write those arguments for nothing you know. :lol:
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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:32 pm

I did read it and I can also agree with you on numerous things. Jacob didn’t need to have a limit within his “friendship” with Bella in new moon because she was single at the time. But, even then, he ever rarely tried as much to pursue her because he had a game plan. . . the patience . . . He was expecting her sooner or later to fall back and commit to him (which we all know Bella was nearer to doing so). Like you said, THAT is common sense and there’s nothing unruly or unflattering about it. But when Edward came back and Bella jumped back into his arms which was utterly appalling to Jacob . . . Then he decided to fight for her, “there really is something irresistible about a lost cause”. He wasn’t content with Bella only being his friend, he wanted to win her affections and so he conducted those desires (greed), despite her persistent contradictories.

You say “at no point did he pursue her just for the sake of pursuing her while she was in a relationship”. . . Contrarily “Bella, I love you. And I want you to pick me instead of him.” was the commencement of his pursuit. Afterwards he made clear his stance on that point (notwithstanding Bella’s rejection) and pulled her in for a kiss. THAT I have no common ground with.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Jazz Girl » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:02 pm

amethyst wrote:I did read it and I can also agree with you on numerous things. Jacob didn’t need to have a limit within his “friendship” with Bella in new moon because she was single at the time. But, even then, he ever rarely tried as much to pursue her because he had a game plan. . . the patience . . . He was expecting her sooner or later to fall back and commit to him (which we all know Bella was nearer to doing so). Like you said, THAT is common sense and there’s nothing unruly or unflattering about it. But when Edward came back and Bella jumped back into his arms which was utterly appalling to Jacob . . . Then he decided to fight for her, “there really is something irresistible about a lost cause”. He wasn’t content with Bella only being his friend, he wanted to win her affections and so he conducted those desires (greed), despite her persistent contradictories.

You say “at no point did he pursue her just for the sake of pursuing her while she was in a relationship”. . . Contrarily “Bella, I love you. And I want you to pick me instead of him.” was the commencement of his pursuit. Afterwards he made clear his stance on that point (notwithstanding Bella’s rejection) and pulled her in for a kiss. THAT I have no common ground with.
Amethyst, a fantastically reasoned response. There is little to add, but I do want to toss one idea into the roiling waters for consideration. I would argue that Jacob is pursuing Bella for the entirety of Eclipse. He may not be completely forthright with it, completely transparent in his intentions. But, I think in his own way, Jacob sets out from the beginning to undermine Bella's relationship with Edward, setting himself up as the obvious other choice. There are times he is very subtle about it, as when he discusses with Edward the idea of Bella being protected by the pack if she stays at LaPush. And, there are times when he is downright nasty about it, as when he viciously berates Edward to Bella for his overprotective nature (my apologies, my books are not handy and I can't provide the exact quotes). But, the fact remains. Up until he runs at the end of Eclipse (after getting the wedding invitation), he is pursuing Bella. I do have to give Jacob the concession that he is, in his mind, trying to save her life. But, as Sam says in BD, she knows what she is choosing. She should be allowed to do so without interference.
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