Jacob Black

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elisemusta
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by elisemusta » Tue May 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Thanks JG for the long answer. I can see where you come from. Your arguments make sense for me, but I still don't share your opinion. :)

I agree that it's none of Jacob's business, but if Bella wants to keep private things private she shouldn't talk about them herself for others. Jacob shouldn't have made the comment about their honeymoon, but neither should Bella have said that she can have the real honeymoon. They both slipped and that was it.
Of course Jacob is jealous for Edward and it hurts suddenly to hear that from Bella, and perhaps it made it harder to control himself but I still think the main reason was that he was scared about the danger she was putting herself. Again, it was not possible for Jacob after Bella's comment just let it go and say ok, do whatever you want, because he cares so much and is horrified. It's a very sad incident for them all.

We just have to disagree here, so let's move on to other topics, ok? :)
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Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:31 pm

In my opinion, Jacob CAN control his temper. But not his feelings or concern. But sometimes he does bottle up his feelings. But a little too much. It took him 3 books to finally tell Bella to be with HIM, and that he wants more than friendship. But he can control a temper. Like when Bella was saying she could survive, he just shrugged lied and said "Sure, Sure." Before he could start an argument with her. But he is young, and naive at times, so sometimes his rage just COMES out. Like at the wedding, he couldn't control himself. When you love a person that much, or concern or care for them that much, that happens.
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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Tue May 19, 2009 8:55 pm

Mrs.EC -- I just… can’t agree. Jacob displayed time and time again that he doesn’t, in fact, have any control over his temper whatsoever. He has to work to even be capable of talking to Bella about things such as immortality, vampire life, and her choice in wanting both (as displayed in the Ethics chapter. And previously, “You’re better of dead. I’d rather you were”… Bella described his posture as rigid or something similar. In new moon, they had a conversation about the Cullens and Edward, only this time his shape was blurring/vibrating.)

Jacob isn’t the type of guy to bottle up his feelings for other’s sakes. He had no problem using his pain to guilt Bella into coming to see him. He had no problem playing that up on Charlie… he had no problem telling Bella that he liked and enjoyed her company in twilight, he had no problem expressing his feelings to Bella in new moon along with mustering the confidence he felt, he had no problem telling Bella straight up “I love you. Choose me. Not him” … and finally, he had the audacity to manipulate Bella into a kiss by playing the “take myself out of the picture” card to “supposedly” (I purposely put quotes around supposedly, because I don’t agree with that argument ^__~) make her realize she loved him.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Tue May 19, 2009 9:12 pm

what you just described, amethyst, are the exact actions of someone controlling their temper.

And if you want to disbelieve what the author tells us, that's up to you. But SM has told us what the case was with that kiss.

What does him telling her he likes her company prove? I, personally, don't find anything wrong with someone telling me they like to be with me, but if that's offensive to you, to each his own I guess....
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Tue May 19, 2009 9:29 pm

Amethyst, I can see your opinion. That his..expressing of feelings I guess you could say proved he couldn't hold it in. But..how can anyone hold in love for a long period of time? It gets hard that it just has to come out. Like I said, he's young. It's hard for him to control his temper, but he CAN do it. And now...I think he may able to control his own emotions too, not because he wants to, but for others sake. Not all, but some. Love is something you can't control.
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diane771
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Tue May 19, 2009 9:44 pm

elisemusta wrote:Thanks JG for the long answer. I can see where you come from. Your arguments make sense for me, but I still don't share your opinion. :)

I agree that it's none of Jacob's business, but if Bella wants to keep private things private she shouldn't talk about them herself for others. Jacob shouldn't have made the comment about their honeymoon, but neither should Bella have said that she can have the real honeymoon. They both slipped and that was it.
Of course Jacob is jealous for Edward and it hurts suddenly to hear that from Bella, and perhaps it made it harder to control himself but I still think the main reason was that he was scared about the danger she was putting herself. Again, it was not possible for Jacob after Bella's comment just let it go and say ok, do whatever you want, because he cares so much and is horrified. It's a very sad incident for them all.

We just have to disagree here, so let's move on to other topics, ok? :)
Well since it was a wedding, people were talking about the wedding and honeymoon too, just like at any wedding. That
just is another reason why Jacob should not have come. What did you want, Bella to feel sorry for him and just think of his feelings, when her world was just going so right for her? Edward extended a hand with full intentions of making a clean slate. Jacob comes even his pack knows he can't control himself. Not only did he act so outrageously stupid by laying hands on Bella. He could have started a blood bath with all the vamps and wolves there, but true Jacob, only thinking of himself came to the wedding, not as a friend accepting and I did not say LIKING IT but ACCEPTING that this is what Bella wanted, and if he was a true friend of hers, he would have known how deep her love was forEdward. But Jacob only saw what he wanted to see, and that was the excuse to think she was in danger by being with Edward. When the truth was, Edward wasn't the one who Jacob should be upset with, it should have been Bella. His hatred for Edward blinded him from the truth. Jacob had tunnel vision where Bella was concerned, and he need to grow up and look at the whole picture, and not just what his opinion and his wants were. This is the way he came off to me at the wedding. If it happened at a different time, I would not have felt this stronglyl against what Jacob did, but he had a choice, and he made it, and it could brought on devastating consequences with all the humans at the reception, and people forget the fact it just wasn't Edward, Bella and Jacob there. What about all the humans that could have died because of Jacobs temper. To me that in not acceptable behavior.
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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Tue May 19, 2009 9:49 pm

HOFJ... I only provided one example about Jacob and his temper; that he has to work, and sometimes nearly fails, to even talk to Bella about things such as immortality and her choice regarding it--he told her that she wishes she was dead, that she was better of that way. That in itself is a temper issue. And in a similar situation he almost phased in front of her because she dared say she still loved the Cullens… So, yes, he was trying to “control” his temper in those circumstances, that’s true, he tried to dictate his temper as much as he could so he won’t consciously or otherwise physically harm Bella… but say, for someone to be controlling their temper, wouldn’t that temper have already been cut loose in the first place? My argument wasn’t whether he can calm himself after.

I would actually like to see your source, if you provide me with a link or direct quote I will try to rethink my argument. However, case in point, what Stephenie Meyer says and what Stephenie Meyer wrote are two, very distinct contradictories. According to Jacob himself he kissed Bella for the sole sake of kissing her. And according to Edward, Jacob would have kissed her regardless of the circumstances he had put Bella in… add to that, the very fact that Jacob had no idea that kissing her would result in her realizing she loved him. Now, even if his motivations were any different, it doesn’t make his action any less sordid or proof that he is not the type of guy to bottle his feelings which was my initial argument--not that you disputing my initial argument, but just a reminder.

I never implied that there was anything remotely offensive about someone telling another person that they enjoy their company. It was only an example to show that Jacob is perfectly capable of expressing his feelings.

MEC... What makes you believe that he does have complete control over his temper... ? If you are able to provide me with an example--I would be better able to understand your perspective. I am just honestly curious. Because I don't recall (I might be wrong, though) a time where Jacob had complete control over his temper.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Tue May 19, 2009 11:12 pm

I will look for that source in the morning for you, amethyst. I am simply too sleepy now.

Let me get this straight. You believe that it is a bad thing that Jacob expresses his emotions? And you fault him for being angry?

Anger is a part of life, as are joy, despair, pain, so on and so forth. You can't fault a person for feeling anger. You can fault their actions BASED upon anger, but to fault someone for expressing their emotions or having them is ridiculous, to me, and quite frankly, feels like you're searching for something negative to say.

Controlling one's temper literally means to make sure that one does not hurt another when one is angry, not to make sure that you never get angry. That would make you not human.

The first thing they tell people who take anger management classes is that the point of them is not to get rid of their anger or stop them from feeling angry in situations because that is a part of life. I know this because both of my parents are psychotherapists, and have done such courses.
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vampirenerd
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Wed May 20, 2009 9:52 am

I don't think she's saying she faults him for having or expressing emotions. She's saying that he doesn't have a problem using those emotions to affect other people. I think she was referring to MEC<3's comment that Jacob bottles up his feelings, sometimes to much. I agree, Jacob (whether intentional or not) uses his feelings to sway other people. He makes Bella feel guilty so she'll come see him, he makes Charlie feel bad for him to the point that Charlie tries to get Bella to see Jacob. I'm not saying he does this stuff on purpose but it is a good point showing he doesn't bottle up his feelings. He let's them affect himself and those around him.
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Dovrebanen
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Dovrebanen » Wed May 20, 2009 1:07 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote: The first thing they tell people who take anger management classes is that the point of them is not to get rid of their anger or stop them from feeling angry in situations because that is a part of life. I know this because both of my parents are psychotherapists, and have done such courses.
I think that is very true, hofj. Anger is a healthy and necessary emotion. But , and correct me if I'm wrong , I guess in anger management classes they teach people how to manage their anger and how to display anger in a way that does not hurt other people or themselves. And that's were I see Jacob failing. He has difficulties controlling his emotions and the way he displays what he's feeling. His anger does hurt Bella on several occasions. Like when he told her that he would rather have her dead than as a vampire. He was scared and angry, but as her friend he should be able to keep those kinds of opinions to himself.
amethyst wrote:HOFJ... I only provided one example about Jacob and his temper; that he has to work, and sometimes nearly fails, to even talk to Bella about things such as immortality and her choice regarding it--he told her that she wishes she was dead, that she was better of that way. That in itself is a temper issue. And in a similar situation he almost phased in front of her because she dared say she still loved the Cullens… So, yes, he was trying to “control” his temper in those circumstances, that’s true, he tried to dictate his temper as much as he could so he won’t consciously or otherwise physically harm Bella… but say, for someone to be controlling their temper, wouldn’t that temper have already been cut loose in the first place? My argument wasn’t whether he can calm himself after.
These are very good examples, amethyst. As far as I can remember he came close to phasing in the garage. That would have been extremely dangerous for Bella. And he came close to phasing at the wedding as well, but there it seemed like he got stuck in some sort of limbo because of his rage. It showed clearly that he couldn't control his anger. And trying to control himself is not good enough when he's a werewolf. When he was with Bella he had to control his emotions better than he did. He should have been able to handle Bella talking about her relationship with Edward and her future,without getting so angry because Jacob angry was dangerous.

And I agree with you vampirenerd. Jacob does use his feelings on other people, and he uses their feelings against them. He uses Bella's compassion and love for him, and the guilt she feels towards him because she knows he loves her, and she can't give anything back to him. It's the only way he has left to try and win Bella's heart, but that doesn't make it right in my opinion. The way he manipulated her into the kiss in Eclipse was an awful thing to do. But mostly I have issues with the way he handles being upset, and given information that he doesn't like. He just goes into this rage. We saw it when Alice came back in NM. When Bella told him about the honeymoon. When he thought that Bella was either dead or changed into a vampire, he rushed over to the Cullens with all intentions of killing all of them (except maybe Carlisle). After Nessie was born, he rushed down the stairs ready to kill a newborn baby and everyone protecting her. In my opinion, these are not the reactions from a man who is in control of his emotions. Quite the opposite.
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