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diane771
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Wed May 20, 2009 2:24 pm

Controlling one's temper literally means to make sure that one does not hurt another when one is angry, not to make sure that you never get angry. That would make you not human.
holdingoutforjacob

Does that apply to vampires? Does that apply when Bella broke her hand because Jacob made unwanted advances? Controlling
ones temper can either be just because of immaturity or it could be just the way that they are. If the latter is correct one,then Jacob will never get control of his temeper completely, and he will become a walking time bomb. If he grows out to it, then right now he is causeing pain to a lot of people around him because of him acting like a child.
The way he manipulated her into the kiss in Eclipse was an awful thing to do. But mostly I have issues with the way he handles being upset, and given information that he doesn't like. He just goes into this rage. We saw it when Alice came back in NM. When Bella told him about the honeymoon. When he thought that Bella was either dead or changed into a vampire, he rushed over to the Cullens with all intentions of killing all of them (except maybe Carlisle). After Nessie was born, he rushed down the stairs ready to kill a newborn baby and everyone protecting her. In my opinion, these are not the reactions from a man who is in control of his emotions. Quite the opposite. Dovrebanen

Someone who has Jacob's power should be in control of his rage. Edward was right about Bella going down to see him, because of his rage and yet this part of Jacob is looked over so lightly. hofj I am surprised that with your parents in the field that they are in, you should be more aware of the potential repercussions that come with someone like Jacob,who could go off with little provocation. This behavior is not normal for someone who loves, and wants to just protect that person, this goes much deeper than that.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Wed May 20, 2009 3:59 pm

amethyst- I never said he had complete control over his temper. I said, he has the ABILITY to, it just gets hard sometimes for him(i.e.: The Wedding.) Jacob can hold his breath for a little while, and push away anger, either to not cause a fight, or to not hurt someone's feelings(in this case, only Bella's feelings and his own come in play.) As to the passage, I can't find something specific, and I'm a little heat stricken. So when I pick up BD and feel less woozy, I'll show you something. ;)

vampirenerd, I completely agree. Jacob at times does use his feelings to manipulate others at times. But he only did them because he was desparate to make Bella see.

Dovrebanen- Very well stated. :D
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Wed May 20, 2009 5:38 pm

diane771 wrote:
Controlling one's temper literally means to make sure that one does not hurt another when one is angry, not to make sure that you never get angry. That would make you not human.
holdingoutforjacob

Does that apply to vampires? Does that apply when Bella broke her hand because Jacob made unwanted advances? Controlling
ones temper can either be just because of immaturity or it could be just the way that they are. If the latter is correct one,then Jacob will never get control of his temeper completely, and he will become a walking time bomb. If he grows out to it, then right now he is causeing pain to a lot of people around him because of him acting like a child.
The way he manipulated her into the kiss in Eclipse was an awful thing to do. But mostly I have issues with the way he handles being upset, and given information that he doesn't like. He just goes into this rage. We saw it when Alice came back in NM. When Bella told him about the honeymoon. When he thought that Bella was either dead or changed into a vampire, he rushed over to the Cullens with all intentions of killing all of them (except maybe Carlisle). After Nessie was born, he rushed down the stairs ready to kill a newborn baby and everyone protecting her. In my opinion, these are not the reactions from a man who is in control of his emotions. Quite the opposite. Dovrebanen

Someone who has Jacob's power should be in control of his rage. Edward was right about Bella going down to see him, because of his rage and yet this part of Jacob is looked over so lightly. hofj I am surprised that with your parents in the field that they are in, you should be more aware of the potential repercussions that come with someone like Jacob,who could go off with little provocation. This behavior is not normal for someone who loves, and wants to just protect that person, this goes much deeper than that.
I
I wonder what knowledge you have to support your disagreement with the opinions of professionals? All your "life experiences which are more than I will EVER know" I suppose. Silly me.

Either way, the point I was making was that Jacob DID have control of his temper.

Bella was NOT In control of her temper when she punched Jacob, nor was she in control of her temper when she broke Seth's shoulder in BD. Edward was not in control of his temper when he broke Jacob's finger in BD. All of these people, in these instances, had very good reasons to lose control. Why isn't it possible, in your world, for Jacob's emotions to be just a valid, and his pain to be just as deep and, well, painful?

I am not sure why you argue hearing that your best friend and the person you are in love with is deliberately putting herself into a situation that is incredibly dangerous constitutes going off at little provocation. I wonder what examples you have to back that up?
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Wed May 20, 2009 5:54 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I will look for that source in the morning for you, amethyst. I am simply too sleepy now.

Let me get this straight. You believe that it is a bad thing that Jacob expresses his emotions? And you fault him for being angry?

Anger is a part of life, as are joy, despair, pain, so on and so forth. You can't fault a person for feeling anger. You can fault their actions BASED upon anger, but to fault someone for expressing their emotions or having them is ridiculous, to me, and quite frankly, feels like you're searching for something negative to say.

Controlling one's temper literally means to make sure that one does not hurt another when one is angry, not to make sure that you never get angry. That would make you not human.

The first thing they tell people who take anger management classes is that the point of them is not to get rid of their anger or stop them from feeling angry in situations because that is a part of life. I know this because both of my parents are psychotherapists, and have done such courses.
I have no idea what you‘re talking about… I have never said anything about faulting Jacob for his anger? Neither have I implied that Jacob shouldn’t be angry. Also, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself what I can and can not fault someone for.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Dovrebanen » Wed May 20, 2009 6:18 pm

Just for the record, the top part you quoted was mine, the last was diane's. You probably saw that. Anyway, moving on :) I would like to respond even if it wasn't directed at me.
holdingoutforjacob wrote: Bella was NOT In control of her temper when she punched Jacob, nor was she in control of her temper when she broke Seth's shoulder in BD. Edward was not in control of his temper when he broke Jacob's finger in BD. All of these people, in these instances, had very good reasons to lose control.
No, Bella was not in always in control of her temper. But we do have to take into consideration that Bella was a 110 pound girl, who could inflict next to no damage. Jacob healed almost as soon as the punch hit. While Jacob was a huge guy who could phase into a werewolf with very dangerous consequences. So we should expect more selfcontrol from Jacob than from Bella, purely based on the possible outcomes of their actions. Jacob could potentially kill Bella, she could not kill him.
And in my opinion the example of Edward breaking Jacob's finger in BD is not a good one to show that Edward was not in control of his temper. Edward was trying to save Bella's life, and Jacob was in the way and had given up. Edward was being rational and just getting Jacob out of the way so he could keep working on saving her. In my opinion that had nothing to with him not being in control. In fact, the way I see it, Edward was never more in control than in that situation. And I think we would have to search very hard to find examples of Edward loosing his temper the way Jacob did.

I am not saying that Jacob's pain and emotions were not valid, nor that he shouldn't have those emotions. I'm just saying that he wasn't in control of those emotions, and that could possibly be dangerous for the people around him. And I feel that Jaocb as Bella's friend should have been able to handle the news he was given without going off the deep end. So he can feel whatever he wants. the problem is how he acts upon his emotions.
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diane771
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Wed May 20, 2009 6:53 pm

I wonder what knowledge you have to support your disagreement with the opinions of professionals? All your "life experiences which are more than I will EVER know" I suppose. Silly me.

Either way, the point I was making was that Jacob DID have control of his temper.
Being a friend is not dictating who they should marry Jacob had no business. Time and Time again, Bella made her intentions known to Jacob. He did not listen or respect her wishes. instead of Accepting and being there. all he did was throw a temper tantrum at her wedding. He was never in control with Bella and what kind of friend is that. He knew that Bella only wanted Edward and yet the pain and jealousy he was feeling was from him not accepting what Bella wanted. That is no way a Best friend treats each other. Bella made her choice quiet clear, But Jacob had blinders on. Jacob had no business in Bella's personal life if he was so against it. He wasn't her father!!!!! its just so incredible that even at the wedding you are still giving him a break, he chose to come and he knew that he could not keep control and that is a fact so what kind of friend was he? If he would have gotten to know Edward then he would have known that Edward was against turning Bella just like he was, But hatred was all Jacob could see when it came to Edward and its sad, he could have saved himself a lot of heartache if he would have looked at the total picture instead of the picture that he only wanted to see.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by elisemusta » Wed May 20, 2009 7:16 pm

It is sad and true that Jacob doesn't have complete control over his anger, but he does have some. I think he is actually doing quite well comparing to the situation where he is. He is under extremely hard stress both emotionally and physically. He is all the time dead tired because of lack of sleep and rest. Emotionally he has just experienced turning to wolf, even to learning the phasing to wolf and back and all other wolf things would be enough mess. He has been pulled to a fight against enemies he didn't believe exist, and he is in danger to lose his best friend and his first love. And this all when he is still very young. Who could handle situation like that. And still Jacob has some control, he is able to calm down enough not to phase in many dangerous situations. I can't recall any time he would have phased accidentally. And isn't it just that what happens when wolves lost their control. I would say that Jacob is now living the worst, the hardest time ever in his life. This far and future. And if this is the worst behaving we will ever see from him, well, I think I could live with that.

Edward has amazing self-control, I can recall only one little slip, in the tent at the morning after Bella's and Jacob's night. Jacob is not even close to that, but with Edward's 90 years advantage of experience and practise we can't even expect that.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Wed May 20, 2009 8:10 pm

diane771 wrote:
I wonder what knowledge you have to support your disagreement with the opinions of professionals? All your "life experiences which are more than I will EVER know" I suppose. Silly me.

Either way, the point I was making was that Jacob DID have control of his temper.
Being a friend is not dictating who they should marry Jacob had no business. Time and Time again, Bella made her intentions known to Jacob. He did not listen or respect her wishes. instead of Accepting and being there. all he did was throw a temper tantrum at her wedding. He was never in control with Bella and what kind of friend is that. He knew that Bella only wanted Edward and yet the pain and jealousy he was feeling was from him not accepting what Bella wanted. That is no way a Best friend treats each other. Bella made her choice quiet clear, But Jacob had blinders on. Jacob had no business in Bella's personal life if he was so against it. He wasn't her father!!!!! its just so incredible that even at the wedding you are still giving him a break, he chose to come and he knew that he could not keep control and that is a fact so what kind of friend was he? If he would have gotten to know Edward then he would have known that Edward was against turning Bella just like he was, But hatred was all Jacob could see when it came to Edward and its sad, he could have saved himself a lot of heartache if he would have looked at the total picture instead of the picture that he only wanted to see.
Have you even read that passage??? I"m sorry, but that's just not how it happened.

He didn't go there and throw a temper tantrum. Right or wrong, that's not what happened. There was a lot leading up to the argument. In fact, it was BELLA's temper tantrum that took it to a level anything other than Jacob being completely supportive of what she was doing. He even says, and this is a DIRECT quote:

"Are you happy? Then that's all that matters. This is what you want right? Then smile."

How is that being unsupportive?
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diane771
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Wed May 20, 2009 8:27 pm

It would really be nice to be able to post your ideas. opinions and thoughts without getting sarcasm from you hotj but I guess that isn't going to happen, so anyway Its what your opinion is about the wedding and what other peoples opinion are. and you for the umpteen time are not all Jacob knowing so I will take your comments and read them and try to understand them. Its a lot more than you do for anyone who disagress with your opinion, so anyway

Jacob was ready to fight, his pack was there because they knew his temper but you just can't grasp that. If he didn't have a temper, if he did go as just a friend and try to acknowledge her new husband then Sam and the rest could have stayed home. and not have to babysit. I know you will say that the vamps were untrustworthy but since Edward asked him there was no animosity there. So again you need to open up and look at it objectively and stop making excuses for his extremely bad behavior at Bella's wedding. And you should see how easy it is for him to go off the handle and this is not normal. This is my opinion when it comes to Jacob.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Wed May 20, 2009 9:02 pm

I'm actually a little scared to post her now lol. I agree with HOFJ that Jacob didn't go to the wedding looking for a fight. He went there to be a friend. But his pack was there, not b/c Jacob was looking for a fight, but b/c they knew how his temper was. No one is faulting Jacob for having emotions or getting angry sometimes. He's having to watch the girl he loves marry his enemy, no matter how nice Edward is being they are still natural enemies. He had every right to be upset.

Dovrebanen I completely agree with you that Jacob needed to be more careful with his feelings. It is pointed out that when a werewolf becomes angry they have trouble controlling their phasing, esp if they haven't been a werewolf very long. While Bella was human she couldn't hurt anyone even when she was angry. The time when she punches Jacob is a good example. She hurts herself more than she does him. Jacob on the other hand could very seriously hurt someone if he loses control. That's why the pack is there. Not b/c Jacob is looking to fight but just in case he can't control his temper.
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