Jacob Black

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amethyst
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by amethyst » Wed May 20, 2009 10:02 pm

The pack was also there to make sure Jacob doesn't trash the party... which I'd guess he had thought about and thought tempting. And Diane, that was a great post, especially the last sentence. Perfectly written.

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diane771
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Wed May 20, 2009 11:14 pm

[quote]I'm actually a little scared to post her now lol. I agree with HOFJ that Jacob didn't go to the wedding looking for a fight. He went there to be a friend. But his pack was there, not b/c Jacob was looking for a fight, but b/c they knew how his temper was. No one is faulting Jacob for having emotions or getting angry sometimes. He's having to watch the girl he loves marry his enemy, no matter how nice Edward is being they are still natural enemies. He had every right to be upset.[/vampirenerd quote]
That does puzzle me so I think we both agree that Jacob didn't want Bella to be a vamp, and didn't want her to marry Edward he was always telling her about her other options and trying to win her over. So how can you say that he would just come to her wedding as her friend? To do that to me, he needed to acknowledge Edward as her husband, and also see Edward as someone who was extending his hand out to him. Yet he did not, so that is what I base my opinion on that he came not for the proper or right reasons. He knew how he felt about the vamps and this isn't about even Edward but the others at the party, he knew that his father and Seth were supportive of Bella and Edward, or at least Billy kept his feelings to himself because of his friendship to Charlie, and so Jacob should have kept his mouth shut or not have come. If something so minor as someone mentioning that they are going on a honeymoon, and he goes crazy and he had no clue to what was going to happen . Why does Everybody have to walk on egg shells, and watch what they say around poor little Jacob?? I have read everybody's side about this, and I also put myself in Jacobs shoes, and I still come to the same conclusion, if Jacob was a true friend he would have accept Edward, and known that Bella was safe, or he should have taken himself out of the picture totally, and thats what I would have done. so I am basing my opinion on not just the book, but also what I would have done in Jacobs place.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Wed May 20, 2009 11:33 pm

I understand and I would like to think that I would do the same thing but I personally know that I am selfish with my friends. I also know from experience that you can be friends with someone without accepting or embracing their partner of choice. I agree that even if you don't like them you shouldn't cause problems for your friend but you don't have to be all buddy buddy with them. I have no problem with your opinion, everyone has the right to have their own. Mine is that Jacob was there as a friend. Even if he didn't like or accept Edward he still wanted to support Bella. I don't think everyone should walk on eggshells around Jacob, I personally think that he should learn to control his anger issues.

And it wasn't just the fact that they were going on a honeymoon. It was that they were going to "have relations" (sorry I just heard some old lady on tv refer to it as that and I thought it was hilarious) while Bella was still a human. While Bella trusted Edward to be able to not hurt her, and Edward trusted himself to a certain extent, Jacob didn't. He was afraid that Edward would lose control and hurt her. I'm not saying that Bella should have had to watch what she said, I'm just saying that if you look at it from Jacob's POV (IMO) you can understand why he got upset. I also don't agree with how he reacted but it is in line with the fact that Jacob (do to his young age or his attachment to Bella, whichever or neither) has a really hard time controlling his temper.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Wed May 20, 2009 11:55 pm

vampirenerd wrote:I understand and I would like to think that I would do the same thing but I personally know that I am selfish with my friends. I also know from experience that you can be friends with someone without accepting or embracing their partner of choice. I agree that even if you don't like them you shouldn't cause problems for your friend but you don't have to be all buddy buddy with them. I have no problem with your opinion, everyone has the right to have their own. Mine is that Jacob was there as a friend. Even if he didn't like or accept Edward he still wanted to support Bella. I don't think everyone should walk on eggshells around Jacob, I personally think that he should learn to control his anger issues.

And it wasn't just the fact that they were going on a honeymoon. It was that they were going to "have relations" (sorry I just heard some old lady on tv refer to it as that and I thought it was hilarious) while Bella was still a human. While Bella trusted Edward to be able to not hurt her, and Edward trusted himself to a certain extent, Jacob didn't. He was afraid that Edward would lose control and hurt her. I'm not saying that Bella should have had to watch what she said, I'm just saying that if you look at it from Jacob's POV (IMO) you can understand why he got upset. I also don't agree with how he reacted but it is in line with the fact that Jacob (do to his young age or his attachment to Bella, whichever or neither) has a really hard time controlling his temper.
Well I don't think I would be so hard on Jacob if he did it someplace else, the thing that really to me is the most upsetting is the fact that it was her wedding and Bella and Edward didn't need Jacob to be out of control there. Any other time I would be still wanting Jacob to ease up on Edward, but I wouldn't be so hard on him. because you are right there are times that your friends choices are not what you think are good for them. But you can only say it for so long, if it doesn't get you anywhere then you need to ask yourself, does my friendship trump my hostility towards another person. or do you just can't accept it. Then its your choice to either stay friends or walk away, But once Bella married Edward it did change things with Jacob and Bella and it should , so that is what I mean that if you could not deal with it then he should not have come to the wedding. Did Jacob think that anything other than Bella and Edwards happiness on that day? Yes and that was still trying to make Bella do something that she didn't want. So my biggest beef is that it was totally inappropate and just was wrong. I sorry but I can't give in on the wedding bit. Just put yourself in the place of Bella, Edward and Jacob, really I am serious and look at it through all of the eyes. Jacob was self inflicting pain on himself by coming, I just can't by the friendship but let me know when you really put yourself in each others place maybe then you will get what I am trying to say.
Also if Jacob would have known Edward better he would have known Edward would never hurt Bella but Jacob didn't. Jacob over stepped. Maybe Bella was mad because she thought that might change Edwards mind about it too. So there was so much going on and Jacob was not her keeper and Bella made the decision.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Dovrebanen » Thu May 21, 2009 6:49 am

I'm a little on both sides, I think :lol: I agree witt hofj and vampirenerd in that he didn't come to cause a fight, but I agree with diane in the interpretation of Jacob's actions. If that makes sense.
In my opinion, Jacob didn't come to the wedding to cause trouble. He came because he wanted to be there for Bella on her wedding day. So I think he was there with the best intentions. Sam and rest was there because they had to make sure that things didn't get out of control. They all knew how strongly Jacob felt about Bella since they had all had access to his mind for quite some time. So naturally they didn't trust him to make it trough seeing the love of his life marrying his one enemy. So they had to be there. I think that Jacob himself had faith that he would be able to control himself. And I think if Jacob didn't trust himself, he wouldn't have come. But he ran for a long time, to get there for Bella. So he came as her friend. And I believe that if the subject of humanity and honeymoon had not come up, everything would have been fine. He would have danced with her a bit, talked and hugged her. He did say that he wanted her to smile and be happy. So it was bad luck that that subject came up. Jacob still loved her, and I still see a mix of fear for her life and jealousy in this. Not that he came to the wedding feeling jealous, but that these emotions flared in him as well when he heard about the honeymoon.

And here's where I part from those who see Jacob's responses at the wedding as understandable, or excusable. It was ok for him to have those feelings. By all means, he should because he loved this girl. But it was nok okay that he got so angry that he couldn't control himself. His pack had to physically drag and push him away to make sure that he didn't phase in front of Bella and that he didn't kill Edward. If they had not been there, who knows what could have happened? In the worst case Jacob would have accidently hurt Bella, and Jacob could have ended up getting himself killed. Not the mention that the vampires wold have been exposed to all the human guests, and the treaty would have been broken. That is why Jacob should have controlled himself better. And it was her wedding day. The most important day in her life. As her friend he should have kept his mouth shut, and quietly removed himself from the situation. It was none of his business what Bella intended to do with her husband on her honeymoon. I will never change my opinion on that one. Jacob had no right to even imply that she couldn't have a normal honeymoo with Edward. It was purely between the two of them. So what he felt is his business, but he had no right to go off at Bella for planning on a normal honeymoon.
vampirenerd wrote: It was that they were going to "have relations" (sorry I just heard some old lady on tv refer to it as that and I thought it was hilarious) while Bella was still a human. While Bella trusted Edward to be able to not hurt her, and Edward trusted himself to a certain extent, Jacob didn't. He was afraid that Edward would lose control and hurt her.
"Have relations": That is funny :lol:
I think that with Jacob being Bella's friend he needed to trust her judgement. He didn't have to agree, but he didn't have a say in this. Bella trusted Edward with her life, and that was her choice. And Edward had never hurt Bella physically in all the time they had been together. Therefore it would be highly unlikely even from Jacob's pov, that he would do anything to hurt her now.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Thu May 21, 2009 10:07 am

Ok, I just want to clear up a few things. I have never once said that the way Jacob reacted to his anger was right. He never should have put his hands on Bella and he never should have stuck his nose where it didn't belong. That being said Diane, I have put myself in the other's place. Bella was happy to see Jacob there and it wasn't until she brought up the honeymoon that she got upset with his reaction. I'm not saying that she should have had to watch what she said around him, just saying that if that conversation would have never come up things more than likely wouldn't have gotten out of control. I'm not faulting Bella or Jacob, like Dovre said it was just bad luck that it came up. I've also put myself in Edward's place. He knew how Jacob felt for Bella and he knew, because he could read his mind, how hard a time Jacob has of controlling his emotions, but he invited him anyway.

So once again, I'm not condoning the way Jacob reacted. I have said countless times that Jacob has a problem and needs to learn to control his temper. Still, IMO he came to the wedding, as a friend, not to start trouble. He truly did believe that he could keep his control and had it not been for that one line of conversation I think he would have managed it.

Diane I appreciate your POV and just b/c we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean either one of us is wrong. It just leads to a good debate. But I have put myself in all three of their places and I still feel the same way. Jacob came with the best of intentions but due to the "bad luck" of the topic of the honeymoon coming up he over reacted. Not saying how he reacted was right but that wasn't what he came there to do. He just came there to support Bella.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Thu May 21, 2009 2:05 pm

vampirenerd, so you still think that it was OK for Jacob to come to Bella's wedding the way he did? Well I am glad that you tried to look at it in everyones eyes, but just like me it didn't change your mind. I just hope if you marrry or have your kids get married that a disruption like that one that Jacob did doesn't happen, especially if its your daughter. Thanks for trying
Bella had the right to talk about anything if Jacob is such a good friend as so many people are saying here, so this excuse of saying Bella shouldn't have brought it up is not right. If Jacob came as a friend he would have drop that and left in a dignified way and that didn't happen because Jacob thought he knew what was best for Bella and he never gave Edward a chance so, This is my stand and I will read other idea's and really think long and hard about them but I just can't get past what Jacob did with Bella, I just can't excuse him on this. Sorry
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Thu May 21, 2009 2:56 pm

Diane like I said I appreciate your POV and I have my own. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point since we have both looked at it from all the angles and still feel the same way lol. Besides if everyone agreed we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Dovrebanen » Thu May 21, 2009 5:21 pm

vampirenerd wrote: So once again, I'm not condoning the way Jacob reacted. I have said countless times that Jacob has a problem and needs to learn to control his temper. Still, IMO he came to the wedding, as a friend, not to start trouble. He truly did believe that he could keep his control and had it not been for that one line of conversation I think he would have managed it.
Thanks for clearing up your point, vampirenerd. Sorry if I was putting words into your mouth :)
Stated like this I totally agree with you. I believe that Jacob came with the best intentions. As far as I can remember he wasn't all sure that he would be there, and he ran for a long time on the day of the wedding to make it. I think this was because he wanted to make sure that he could handle being there, and that it wouldn't rip his heart apart to see Bella in her wedding dress marrying his enemy. And the fact that he came, proves to me that he believed that he would be able to control himself. Bella didn't want to invite him, because she felt that he shouldn't feel pressured into attending her wedding, knowing how much it would hurt him.
Having that said, there is no doubt in my mind that Jacob still loved Bella. And that some small part of him still hoped that she would be his someday. And her making love with Edward and becoming a vampire would be what would put a final end to that possibility. Not saying that her safety wasn't a main priority as well, but his romantic love for her also played a large part.
Seeing what happened at the wedding, I wished that he hadn't come. But like I said before, if certain things had not been mentioned, everything would have been fine. Because he wasn't there to cause trouble. I will never excuse him for what he did at the wedding. He was totally out of line in coming close to harming Bella, and in interfering with her marital life. But I see it as him coming to be a friend, and then the whole thing escalated.
vampirenerd wrote:Besides if everyone agreed we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
Exactly! That's why I love this place. And why I can't help myself from posting when I really should be going to bed :)
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Thu May 21, 2009 5:33 pm

vampirenerd wrote:Diane like I said I appreciate your POV and I have my own. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point since we have both looked at it from all the angles and still feel the same way lol. Besides if everyone agreed we wouldn't have anything to discuss.

Thats cool 8-)
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