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vampirenerd
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Mon May 18, 2009 9:47 am

Jazz Girl wrote:
Elisemusta~ I give Jake credit for a lot of things. I give Jake credit for saving Bella when she needed it most, for being the sun in her dark world, for being concerned and loving Bella enough to call her on what he saw as dangerous behavior. But, I put more credence in what he said, stated vehemently in his own words, when Bella forced him to put all his cards on the table after the kiss on the beach, rather than what he said while a little doped up and trying to make up for again hurting Bella and making her feel guilty, hurting her like he promised never to do. In my head and in my heart, I cannot get passed his statement, bold and unchallengeable, that he would continue to fight for her until her heart stopped beating. In that moment, Jacob was completely and 100% honest. He would never give up fighting for her until he was forced to give up fighting for her. So, he changes tactics. He changes his approach. But, he loves her. He can't fathom being without her. He says he has given up, but his actions say otherwise to me. Jacob is not the kind of man to give up until he absolutely has no other choice. That's his nature. He's a warrior from a long proud line of warriors. Quit just isn't in his vocabulary.
I agree with this. Jacob goes from saying he's going to fight for her to saying he's giving up but he never really gives up. I think he realizes that by being so obvious about fighting for her that it's hurting her. Instead of giving up completely though, he makes it to where it's not as obvious that he's still fighting for her but he is. It seems that even though he has the best intentions he just can't let it go
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by elisemusta » Mon May 18, 2009 10:06 am

Hmm.. Could you please give me some examples when and how he fights for her after the Ethics chapter. Because I can't see there anything and I would like to understand why you think so.

JG, sorry I didn't mean you wouldn't give Jacob credit at all. I meant just this particular case.


EDIT

Ups. I see there has actually been conversation about this earlier. And I have even answered something for this theme.
:oops:
Jazz Girl wrote: Again, this one is going to be a matter of opinion. Many of us, myself included, have asserted that Jacob's reaction to Bella's comment about having a real honeymoon with Edward was, at least in part, an attempt to keep her with him. In even beginning the conversation, he was once again pointing out to her why he was a better choice than Edward. Jacob openly admits in Fire & Ice that he uses Bella's guilt against her ("I have to use whatever I can...I'm not working with your advantages---advantages like her knowing she's in love with you." Eclipse p 496) I would argue that he is doing exactly that here. Jacob doesn't see the wedding as Bella's committment to Edward, but her transformation. So, in Jacob's head, he still has time to convince her to give him a chance. So, what does he do? He peppers their entire conversation with allusions to how much he will miss her, how he wanted to come back and see her one last time, be her best friend one last time. And, then he pulls out the big gun. He brings up the fact that she can't have a physical relationship with Edward. Does he react emotionally, and is he reacting to the harm he thinks will be done to Bella? Yes, absolutely. But, he is also reacting out of jealousy, jealousy that Edward & Bella will have a honeymoon, and he and Bella will not.

Another moment where we see Jacob's refusal to give up Bella. Jacob's savage need to avenge Bella's transformation, before he even knows it has happened, goes far beyond friendship. Jacob prepares to turn his back on his pack, his family and his tribe to avenge what he sees as Bella's death. In this case, 1) Bella wouldn't have been dead, he just saw her that way. 2) Bella wanted to be turned and that was Bella's choice. So, for him to react the way he did, with the bloodlust he did, went so far beyond "friend" it borders on ridiculous. He was a man avenging the loss of the woman he loved, period. I give you this quote, from Jacob. When Jacob is plannin his revenge, he talks about killing any one of the Cullens which would make Edward seek him for revenge. "It would just be him and me. May the better man win." Again, not the thoughts of a friend avenging a friend.
elisemusta wrote: What I see there Jacob comes to say goodbye for Bella. Goodbye for the girl who was his first love and goodbye to the friendship they had. He thinks they are not able to be friends after Bella has changed. I see Jacob have accepted that Bella will be Edward's (he did it already in Eclipse after the fight) and that she will become a vampire. He asks (when Bella demands him to say it) when the changing will happen. Of course he is not happy about it, but he knows it will happen and he can't do anything for it. I don't see him anymore saying he would be better for Bella or even that she shouldn't make the change.

And about the honeymoon. What I see it's not the honeymoon itself why Jacob freaks out. He has no problem before it becomes clear that she will have it while she is still human. That is the key point: while she is still human. Only thing why he panics is because she is putting herself in so big danger.
I think that Jacob not wanting Bella to become a vampire and Jacob wanting her to be his girl are too separate things. Maybe they are connected, but not inextricable. Jacob's only reason (imo) to fight for Bella not changing is not that he want her to be his girlfriend. Jacob thinks they can't be even friends when Bella is a vampire. And vampires, yeah... wouldn't we all have problems if our best friend is turning to something which we really hate in this world. So if you take away the love thing, he still has something to fight for. The friendship, to keep her not becoming one of his enemies.
Not bad for a prison break, eh?

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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Mon May 18, 2009 3:15 pm

Alright I'm back in the conversation. Glad to see it's a little less heated..
Back on the wedding note... I don't think Jacob intended on freaking out..he didn't think. It just happened. He's young, and things like that happen often. Yes, I admit, it was very careless and disrespectful almost to hurt her, and start a fit of rage. But he can't control the feelings and concern he has for Bella. if something harms her, or if he thinks something or someone is going to harm her, he's going to state his opinion, concern, and anger. At that age...wouldn't anyone? And I don't intend on starting an argument but at times Jacob can be a little hypocritical. In Eclipse, he realizes Edward does love Bella and trusts him a little more. Then, he thinks Edward is selfish and just wants to get some. But I see where he's coming from. He still loves Bella..and not only does love make you do stupid things, it makes you hypocritical. :lol:
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon May 18, 2009 5:14 pm

All the evidence in the books points to Jacob having every intention of going as a friend.

I don't think Jacob ever felt like Edward was just trying to get some. I think that he felt like Edward was jeopardizing Bella's life unnecessarily. Since Edward had promised to keep Bella safe, I think he also felt a little betrayed.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Mon May 18, 2009 7:45 pm

That has been my whole point MEC<3...Jacob doesn't mean to upset her and ruin the wedding. He just has a problem controlling his emotions (especially his temper) when it comes to Bella. I also don't think Jacob ever though Edward was just trying to get some. He knew that Edward loved Bella, and while he could admit and accept that, he still had a problem with Bella's life being "ended" (in his opinion).
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Jazz Girl » Mon May 18, 2009 8:07 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:All the evidence in the books points to Jacob having every intention of going as a friend.

I don't think Jacob ever felt like Edward was just trying to get some. I think that he felt like Edward was jeopardizing Bella's life unnecessarily. Since Edward had promised to keep Bella safe, I think he also felt a little betrayed.
All the evidence as you see it. There are varying ways to interpret the events that can lead to other conclusions....

And, Jacob said exactly that...
"Or would the murderer come home alone, unsuccessful in his attempt to make her one of them? Or not even getting that far. Maybe he'd smashed her like a bag of chips in his drive to get some? Because her life was less important to him than his own pleasure..." (BD, p 149)

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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon May 18, 2009 8:21 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:All the evidence in the books points to Jacob having every intention of going as a friend.

I don't think Jacob ever felt like Edward was just trying to get some. I think that he felt like Edward was jeopardizing Bella's life unnecessarily. Since Edward had promised to keep Bella safe, I think he also felt a little betrayed.
All the evidence as you see it. There are varying ways to interpret the events that can lead to other conclusions....

And, Jacob said exactly that...
"Or would the murderer come home alone, unsuccessful in his attempt to make her one of them? Or not even getting that far. Maybe he'd smashed her like a bag of chips in his drive to get some? Because her life was less important to him than his own pleasure..." (BD, p 149)

I'm sorry, I was talking about at the wedding, I thought that's what we were all talking about.... don't switch time periods on me like that, I'm not quick enough to keep up! :lol:
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Mon May 18, 2009 10:57 pm

vampirenerd wrote:That has been my whole point MEC<3...Jacob doesn't mean to upset her and ruin the wedding. He just has a problem controlling his emotions (especially his temper) when it comes to Bella. I also don't think Jacob ever though Edward was just trying to get some. He knew that Edward loved Bella, and while he could admit and accept that, he still had a problem with Bella's life being "ended" (in his opinion).
Whether Jacob means to upset Bella is really not the issue, for 3 books now she has told him, her life is with Edward. If he could not accept that, again I am repeating Jacob should not have come. It doesn't matter aboout his feelings at all. This is Bella's and Edward's wedding, and Jacob should not have come unless he extended his hand out in friendship to Edward as the husband of his bestfriend, or if he could not do that, then he needed to stay home. Jacob made a decision when accepting Edward's, not Bella's invitation by making Bella's wedding complete, Edward put aside his feelings, and Jacob should have too. If he couldn't do that, he should have brought it up with Edward, and not Bella. It was just so wrong to do your friend like that, Bella was so happy to see him, why did she have to watch what she said to him? She must have thought that he had accepted that her future was with Edward. Jacob to go off like he did just proves Edward was right all along about Jacobs control or lack of control where Bella's is concerned
holdingoutforjacob wrote:All the evidence in the books points to Jacob having every intention of going as a friend.

I want to believe you HOFJ but I really can't just by his actions and attitude towards Edward, it didn't change so I can't see Jacob coming there as only a friend. Bella and Edward where partners, married , he had to accept Edward to remain friends with Bella becaise of their marriage and he hadn't yet.
vampirenerd wrote:I agree with this. Jacob goes from saying he's going to fight for her to saying he's giving up but he never really gives up. I think he realizes that by being so obvious about fighting for her that it's hurting her. Instead of giving up completely though, he makes it to where it's not as obvious that he's still fighting for her but he is. It seems that even though he has the best intentions he just can't let it go
Jazz Girl wrote:Elisemusta~ I give Jake credit for a lot of things. I give Jake credit for saving Bella when she needed it most, for being the sun in her dark world, for being concerned and loving Bella enough to call her on what he saw as dangerous behavior. But, I put more credence in what he said, stated vehemently in his own words, when Bella forced him to put all his cards on the table after the kiss on the beach, rather than what he said while a little doped up and trying to make up for again hurting Bella and making her feel guilty, hurting her like he promised never to do. In my head and in my heart, I cannot get passed his statement, bold and unchallengeable, that he would continue to fight for her until her heart stopped beating. In that moment, Jacob was completely and 100% honest. He would never give up fighting for her until he was forced to give up fighting for her. So, he changes tactics. He changes his approach. But, he loves her. He can't fathom being without her. He says he has given up, but his actions say otherwise to me. Jacob is not the kind of man to give up until he absolutely has no other choice. That's his nature. He's a warrior from a long proud line of warriors. Quit just isn't in his vocabulary.
I agree with this. Jacob goes from saying he's going to fight for her to saying he's giving up but he never really gives up. I think he realizes that by being so obvious about fighting for her that it's hurting her. Instead of giving up completely though, he makes it to where it's not as obvious that he's still fighting for her but he is. It seems that even though he has the best intentions he just can't let it go


Yes that is a good point and I do agree, Jacob is not a bad person at all, but he just does not respect what Bella and Edward has. Even his own father was at the wedding and no one there, made any kind of scene. So I just think that Jacob might have been grand standing in front of the pack. Now this is only my opinion, but when men lose, its better to go out fighting and thats what happened with Jacob. He didn't lose face in front of his pack. He did though in front of Bella and Edward, but they understood. It could have been so much worse, if Jacob would have gotten to Edward with all the Vamps and Wolfs there. It would have just been awful. and it would have been Jacobs fault. So I am glad Sam was with him and I do feel sorry but he brought more pain on himself by going then by just leaving it be.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon May 18, 2009 11:00 pm

Wait wait wait. Why are you basing your opinion off of how Jacob is relating to BELLA by how he treats EDWARD??? That, frankly, makes no sense to me.

He has a billion different reasons for not being all that friendly with Edward at that point. But, the fact of the matter is, he came there for Bella, in whatever capacity you choose to believe he did. Why does the way he acts towards Edward matter at all? We're discussing whether or not he's still fighting for BELLA romantically, right?
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Mon May 18, 2009 11:12 pm

diane771 wrote: Whether Jacob means to upset Bella is really not the issue, for 3 books now she has told him, her life is with Edward. If he could not accept that, again I am repeating Jacob should not have come. It doesn't matter aboout his feelings at all. This is Bella's and Edward's wedding, and Jacob should not have come unless he extended his hand out in friendship to Edward as the husband of his bestfriend, or if he could not do that, then he needed to stay home.
holdingoutforjacob wrote:All the evidence in the books points to Jacob having every intention of going as a friend.

I want to believe you HOFJ but I really can't just by his actions and attitude towards Edward, it didn't change so I can't see Jacob coming there as only a friend. Bella and Edward where partners, married , he had to accept Edward to remain friends with Bella becaise of their marriage and he hadn't yet.
Ok, I agree with HOFJ, this is all about Jacob's feelings. He was there as a friend to Bella. I don't understand why whether or not he "extended the hand of friendship" to Edward has anything to do with this. You can still support your friends without agreeing with their decisions. He didn't agree with Bella's decision to be with Edward, he had a natural, ingrained dislike for Edward b/c of the whole vampire vs. werewolf thing. He didn't have to like or be friends with Edward to support Bella.
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