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DesiringJB
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by DesiringJB » Mon May 18, 2009 11:19 pm

Jazz Girl wrote: And, Jacob said exactly that...
"Or would the murderer come home alone, unsuccessful in his attempt to make her one of them? Or not even getting that far. Maybe he'd smashed her like a bag of chips in his drive to get some? Because her life was less important to him than his own pleasure..." (BD, p 149)

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Well, and while we're talking about drawing our own conclusions here.. I don't believe Jacob meant that at all. One thing about Jacob is that he does have a temper, and I feel he displays it when he is hurting (whether that's at all justifiable or not is up to you). Jacob, who does also love Bella, is extremely concerned for Bella's safety by the thought of her and Edward being very physical. Not to mention, of course Jacob feels rejected, jealous, forgotten, lonely, etc.. His way of coping with these strong emotions is anger or trying to be apathetic.. Comments like you posted above truly shouldn't be taken as how Jacob really feels, IMO. Cause I think Jacob really does know better than to believe that.. However, I think he makes himself feel better by saying things like that. Jacob wants to hate Edward..He DOES have some legit reasons to. And when he's upset, Jacob wants to ignore the reasons for why he really shouldn't hate Edward and create more reasons for why he should.. It isn't necessarily right, but I think that is often human nature, and I do find it understandable..

BTW, I agree with your last post, vampirenerd.. Well put.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Mon May 18, 2009 11:34 pm

DesiringJB wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote: And, Jacob said exactly that...
"Or would the murderer come home alone, unsuccessful in his attempt to make her one of them? Or not even getting that far. Maybe he'd smashed her like a bag of chips in his drive to get some? Because her life was less important to him than his own pleasure..." (BD, p 149)

[/color]
Well, and while we're talking about drawing our own conclusions here.. I don't believe Jacob meant that at all. One thing about Jacob is that he does have a temper, and I feel he displays it when he is hurting (whether that's at all justifiable or not is up to you). Jacob, who does also love Bella, is extremely concerned for Bella's safety by the thought of her and Edward being very physical. Not to mention, of course Jacob feels rejected, jealous, forgotten, lonely, etc.. His way of coping with these strong emotions is anger or trying to be apathetic.. Comments like you posted above truly shouldn't be taken as how Jacob really feels, IMO. Cause I think Jacob really does know better than to believe that.. However, I think he makes himself feel better by saying things like that. Jacob wants to hate Edward..He DOES have some legit reasons to. And when he's upset, Jacob wants to ignore the reasons for why he really shouldn't hate Edward and create more reasons for why he should.. It isn't necessarily right, but I think that is often human nature, and I do find it understandable..

BTW, I agree with your last post, vampirenerd.. Well put.
Oh, I completely agree with this. It is human nature to lash out when you are angry. People have always been known to say and do things they don't really mean when they are angry. Jacob can not control his temper as I have stated time and time again. He is hurt and he naturally wants to make others hurt as well. IMO he feels bad afterwards but at the the time with the anger and adrenaline rushing he will lash out and say things to make others hurt as bad as he is.
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DesiringJB
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by DesiringJB » Mon May 18, 2009 11:45 pm

vampirenerd wrote:
Oh, I completely agree with this. It is human nature to lash out when you are angry. People have always been known to say and do things they don't really mean when they are angry. Jacob can not control his temper as I have stated time and time again. He is hurt and he naturally wants to make others hurt as well. IMO he feels bad afterwards but at the the time with the anger and adrenaline rushing he will lash out and say things to make others hurt as bad as he is.
Ahh but now I disagree with you. I think Jacob CAN control his temper very well considering his situation..
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Mon May 18, 2009 11:47 pm

Lol...we agree and then we disagree. IMO, i think that he tries very hard to control his opinion but sometimes it gets out of hand.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Mon May 18, 2009 11:49 pm

DesiringJB wrote:Well, and while we're talking about drawing our own conclusions here.. I don't believe Jacob meant that at all. One thing about Jacob is that he does have a temper, and I feel he displays it when he is hurting (whether that's at all justifiable or not is up to you). Jacob, who does also love Bella, is extremely concerned for Bella's safety by the thought of her and Edward being very physical. Not to mention, of course Jacob feels rejected, jealous, forgotten, lonely, etc.. His way of coping with these strong emotions is anger or trying to be apathetic.. Comments like you posted above truly shouldn't be taken as how Jacob really feels, IMO. Cause I think Jacob really does know better than to believe that.. However, I think he makes himself feel better by saying things like that. Jacob wants to hate Edward..He DOES have some legit reasons to. And when he's upset, Jacob wants to ignore the reasons for why he really shouldn't hate Edward and create more reasons for why he should.. It isn't necessarily right, but I think that is often human nature, and I do find it understandable..
But what everybody seems to be forgetting, when Jacob comes, Bella is Married to Edward. Marriage trumps friendships. Bella wanted to continue to be friends with Jacob, but when he is acting like that with Edward How could she. Edward is her husband. He has no say anymore, I just can't say it any better. Even parents, when their childern get married, it is their spounse who is next of kin, not the mom or the dad in which to me doesn't seem right but that is how it is. So if its that way for the parents, Jacob doesn't have nothing to stand on. Accept Edward and Bella's relationshipl or you will lose Bella as your best friend, that is just the way things work in the real world and it should.
vampirenerd wrote:Ok, I agree with HOFJ, this is all about Jacob's feelings. He was there as a friend to Bella. I don't understand why whether or not he "extended the hand of friendship" to Edward has anything to do with this. You can still support your friends without agreeing with their decisions. He didn't agree with Bella's decision to be with Edward, he had a natural, ingrained dislike for Edward b/c of the whole vampire vs. werewolf thing. He didn't have to like or be friends with Edward to support
Yes he did, when Bella said I do to Edward, Jacob had to accept Edward. Marriage changed everything,. it wasn't boyfriend it was husband and Jacob needs to respect that and he could have, by showing up and being civil and not getting so out of control about something that was none of his business, and it became none of his business when Bella and Edward said I Do
The bonds of marriage and what they do, are not to be dictated by a heartbroken, "best" friend. because this is what Bella wanted and Jacob must accept it or stay out of her life once she married Edward. I know some people just don't get that, but it wasn't a party that he ruined it was a wedding, Bella's happiest day. It just was so wrong I can't see any good about it only if Jacob would have been man enough to just dance with Bella, wished her the best. Told her that he was there for her and left. I could really give that to him and high marks, but that didn't happen because there was no way that Jacob with his temper would have been like that and thats the friend that Bella wanted there. Not the Jacob that showed up. Jacob really hurt Bella on her wedding and I just can't over look that. Sorry just my opinion.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Jazz Girl » Mon May 18, 2009 11:58 pm

DesiringJB wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote: And, Jacob said exactly that...
"Or would the murderer come home alone, unsuccessful in his attempt to make her one of them? Or not even getting that far. Maybe he'd smashed her like a bag of chips in his drive to get some? Because her life was less important to him than his own pleasure..." (BD, p 149)

[/color]
Well, and while we're talking about drawing our own conclusions here.. I don't believe Jacob meant that at all. One thing about Jacob is that he does have a temper, and I feel he displays it when he is hurting (whether that's at all justifiable or not is up to you). Jacob, who does also love Bella, is extremely concerned for Bella's safety by the thought of her and Edward being very physical. Not to mention, of course Jacob feels rejected, jealous, forgotten, lonely, etc.. His way of coping with these strong emotions is anger or trying to be apathetic.. Comments like you posted above truly shouldn't be taken as how Jacob really feels, IMO. Cause I think Jacob really does know better than to believe that.. However, I think he makes himself feel better by saying things like that. Jacob wants to hate Edward..He DOES have some legit reasons to. And when he's upset, Jacob wants to ignore the reasons for why he really shouldn't hate Edward and create more reasons for why he should.. It isn't necessarily right, but I think that is often human nature, and I do find it understandable..

BTW, I agree with your last post, vampirenerd.. Well put.
So, then let me see if I have your assertions correct. It is absolutely fine for Jacob to react to Bella's comments at the wedding, react in anger and fear for Bella's safety when she tells Jacob that, though it is none of his business either way, she is going to make love to her husband. It's okay for him to come within a hair's breadth of losing complete control and phasing and possibly hurting or killing the woman he is in love with.

But, we shouldn't pay any attention to what Jacob actually says about the situation because he's lashing out out of anger and hurt and he's young and human and can't keep complete control of his emotions.

I am confounded by the logic of those contradictory statements.

And, just to round out my post, I would maintain that if, as you claim, Jacob is coming to be a friend to Bella, than it would follow naturally that he should extend a hand of friendship to Edward. Bella has chosen Edward. Bella has always chosen Edward. Edward has always been Bella's life. Mythical conflicts between werewolves and vampires aside, Edward has gone out of his way to extend that hand to Jacob, knowing what it would mean to Bella. How could Jacob expect to be a friend to Bella if he does not accept the man who is her other half?

Try, for just a moment, to look at it through Edward's eyes. He is finally marrying the woman who is the center of his universe. He wants nothing more than to bask and bathe in the love and joy of her love, their love. And yet, he invites the man who has spent the better part of the last several months trying to convince the bride that the groom is a bloodsucking fiend who will leave her and that he is a better option because he's more human and can have a physical relationship with her. I know I am the one who preaches about not comparing Twiverse to the real world, but I can't name you one, one, married man that I know who would have been even remotely okay with having any kind of rival at the wedding, let alone be the one to say, yes, please come for her sake. And yet, no sooner does Jacob appear than Edward entrusts his beautiful bride to that man. And, how is he repaid this absolutely unprecedented gesture. Within 3 minutes, his wife is being physically assaulted (sorry, it meets the legal definition) and placed in mortal danger because she has the nerve to tell said rival that she intends to do what every other woman does on her honeymoon. Now, Edward would have every right, legal and otherwise, in that moment to tear Jacob limb from limb, to defend his wife and his family. But he does nothing more than step between them, hand Jacob over to his friends and wisk his wife away to comfort and calm her.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by vampirenerd » Tue May 19, 2009 12:08 am

I agree that Jacob should have never laid hands on her but if you go back and read it...Jacob tried not to talk about it. He tried to keep the conversation light and happy. She was the one that, even though she could tell what he was thinking was upsetting him, kept bugging him to say what he was thinking. I understand that Edward was making an effort to be a friend to Jacob but you just can't say that he HAS to be friends with Edward to be friends with Bella. You're not always going to like the person your friend is with but you can still be friends with them. If my friend married someone I completely disapproved of I'm still going to be their friend but I'm not going to try to be friends with their spouse if I think they're not good for my friend. Jacob truly believes that being with Edward isn't good for Bella. Whether or not, his belief is right doesn't change the fact that he feels strongly about it. Personally, and no offense to your opinion, I just don't understand why he HAS to be friends with Edward. True, it would make everything easier but life isn't always easy and you don't always get along with everyone.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by diane771 » Tue May 19, 2009 12:23 am

vampirenerd wrote:I agree that Jacob should have never laid hands on her but if you go back and read it...Jacob tried not to talk about it. He tried to keep the conversation light and happy. She was the one that, even though she could tell what he was thinking was upsetting him, kept bugging him to say what he was thinking. I understand that Edward was making an effort to be a friend to Jacob but you just can't say that he HAS to be friends with Edward to be friends with Bella. You're not always going to like the person your friend is with but you can still be friends with them. If my friend married someone I completely disapproved of I'm still going to be their friend but I'm not going to try to be friends with their spouse if I think they're not good for my friend. Jacob truly believes that being with Edward isn't good for Bella. Whether or not, his belief is right doesn't change the fact that he feels strongly about it. Personally, and no offense to your opinion, I just don't understand why he HAS to be friends with Edward. True, it would make everything easier but life isn't always easy and you don't always get along with everyone.
No I don't think Jazz or myself said to be friends with Edward, but to accept Edward as Bella's husband. What does it say about Jacob that Bella who is just having a great time and says something off the cuff and someone goes into a rage. It just show that he is just thinking of his feelings and wants and overstepping the line of friendship. It didn't matter then if he 'APPROVE' of Edward it was a done deal. Again if he felt that way he could have told Edward where to stuff it or just not showed up. So I do believe with so many pack members that in the back of his head he knew that it wasn't going to go well.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by elisemusta » Tue May 19, 2009 9:57 am

Thank you vampirenerd and DesiringJB, I agree with your last posts.
Jazz Girl wrote:-- she intends to do what every other woman does on her honeymoon.
Not every other woman's company is a vampire, who could accidentaly kill you because he is so much stronger that you. I have said this earlier, but the point is not that Edward is going to have sex with Bella and Jacob not. But that Bella is going to do it while she is still human. That is the reason why Jacob reacts. I'm not sure if i got it right but seems that you think the reason is only the real honeymoon. There is diffenence. Jacob is not so stupid he wouldn't understand what their relationship would be after marriage. He just expects it would be that after Bella's change when it's safe.

And with reference to recent discussion, nobody said it is absolutely fine or ok for Jacob to react like that, only that it's understandable. I hope we could all try to understand each others posts right and keep the tune friendly. This is not going to be fun if we turn to fight.

What you said about Edward's reaction in the situation it's absolutely admirable. And I think that shows that Edward trusts to Jacob and understands that he doesn't want to cause any harm in their wedding.
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Re: Jacob Black

Post by Jazz Girl » Tue May 19, 2009 12:10 pm

elisemusta wrote:Not every other woman's company is a vampire, who could accidentaly kill you because he is so much stronger that you. I have said this earlier, but the point is not that Edward is going to have sex with Bella and Jacob not. But that Bella is going to do it while she is still human. That is the reason why Jacob reacts. I'm not sure if i got it right but seems that you think the reason is only the real honeymoon. There is diffenence. Jacob is not so stupid he wouldn't understand what their relationship would be after marriage. He just expects it would be that after Bella's change when it's safe.
Just like Edward, Jacob's goal is Bella's safety. I understand that. And, I give Jacob full marks for his concern. But, in the end what I come back to is how it is any of Jake's business. And, in my opinion, it is actually Jake who brings it up. Yes, Bella asked Jake what he was thinking about, what was concerning him. He was concerned that they had reached the point of her transformation. Bella tried to reassure Jake, as she always does, by saying that it wasn't that night, that it would be a while. Jacob asks what the hold up is. Bella responds that she has other plans for her honeymoon other than writhing in pain. Jacob makes a highly insensitive out-of-line comment about her and Edward not being able to be together and that they should just call it what it is and move on.

Now, keep in mind, Bella has spent the last few weeks having this argument with Edward ( I am pretty sure that it has come up again since the night of the engagement). The last thing she wants is Jacob jumping in to a debate where he doesn't belong. Also, Bella doesn't react well to having her decisions challenged. She's, at this point I think, pretty damn tired of having everyone else tell her what is safe for her and what isn't. Bella trusts Edward implicitly, knows that he is physically incapable of hurting her, that he would never allow anything to hurt her. Also, I think she knows Edward is listening to what they say. She's concious of the fact that Jake's issues would just add fuel to Edward's fire, so to speak. And, she turns out to be right. But, we'll get there in a minute.

So, Jacob challenges Bella's decision of how she is going to conduct her honeymoon. Bella responds with one comment, essentially telling him to butt out of what is absolutely none of his business. Friend or not, one-time prospective boyfriend or not, what happens between Bella & Edward on their honeymoon is absolutely none of Jake's business. It is between Bella & Edward, period. Jake should have realized that this was most assuredly something that Bella & Edward were dealing with, that they had talked about and addressed between them, where the conversation belonged. He should have just left at that point, dropped his arms, told her she was right, she was a married woman and how she conducted her life was up to her, that he'd worry about her and ask her to stay safe. Hell, it would have been perfectly acceptable for him to throw a warning at Edward, something completely acidic reminding him of how breakable Bella was. But, he doesn't. Jake jumps right in where Jake does not belong. Jake reacts violently, grabbing Bella, squeezing her arms to the point of cutting off the bloodflow temporarily, shaking her violently. He threatens to kill Edward for even entertaining the thought of making love to his wife. It takes an alpha command and three other wolves to get him to back down, to essentially drag him away from the confrontation with Edward.

I understand completely that this was something Jake had not seen coming. But, I also think that, while a part of Jake's concern was Bella's safety, another part of it was that rivalry as old as time between men vying for the affections of the same woman. Jacob had, up until that point, at least been able to believe that Bella wasn't able to completely give herself to Edward. There was still that one piece of herself that Edward could not have. Jacob even brings it up in Fire & Ice. Jacob is the one who points out that Edward can't make love to Bella, at least without killing her. Edward in turn tells Jake how jealous he is that Jake could have that with Bella, while he can't. So, now, all of a sudden, Jake is faced with that last advantage he had over Edward being taken away, given away by Bella at the risk to her own life. So, yes, I do attribute, at least in part, Jake's reaction to Bella's announcement to the fact that he is jealous that Edward & Bella will have a complete honeymoon. Yes, he is concerned for her safety, as well. But, also, once again, Bella chooses Edward over him.

But, in the end, as I said, it all boils down to the fact that it wasn't ever any of Jake's business in the first place. Jake brought up the subject. Jake sought out the answer to what I see as "the other question" he really wanted to ask. But, it wasn't any of his business and he crossed the line the moment he even considered the question, let alone made the comment about their honeymoon.
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