Edward Cullen #4

[Jazz Girl]

I'm bemused, as usual, to discover how others have interpreted something in the books differently than myself. All of you are convinced that Edward is wondering if Bella made the right choice to choose Edward over Jacob. I never had any doubt in my mind with this passage that Edward is wondering if Bella made the right choice to give Jacob up. I always thought that Edward was offering her the option that he discusses with Jacob in BD (with an important difference - see below) - where Bella gets to be with both of them, to whatever extent that she wants to be. Even before reading BD, that's what I thought this passage meant.

By this point, Edward is not so dumb as to think that Bella wants to give him up. And Edward had already reconciled himself to sharing Bella with Jacob to some extent, as Bella wanted to spend time with Jacob as her best friend, even though everyone knew that Jacob wanted more. The only thing that changed is that Bella now knows more about how she feels about Jacob. Given Edward's feelings towards Jacob at the end of Eclipse (his distress at Jacob's pain, his looking at Jacob lying there as if he were Edward's brother), I think he would probably be okay with Bella and Jacob continuing their relationship in some capacity, regardless of her new feelings. I'm guessing Jacob would want that too - it would give him the opportunity to continue to try to change Bella's mind. It's Bella's conscience - not wanting to continue to lead Jacob on when she knows that she can't live without Edward - that ends things, not pressure from Edward or Jacob.

I think Edward was assuming that Bella would want to continue her relationship with Jacob on a generally platonic level, like before. She is engaged to Edward, after all! This is, of course, where it's very different from what Edward is offering in BD. In BD, he's being driven to some pretty far extremes that I don't think he's reached here.

Just wow, Ariadnee. What an amazing distinction to make. Once again, you have opened my eyes to a possibility I didn't even see. In my head, Bella had reconciled herself to an either/or scenario. And, maybe more importantly, so had Jacob. But, you could be absolutely right about Edward. His only concern always is what will make Bella happiest. I have said from the beginning that if Bella had chosen Jacob, he would have graciously stepped aside, being whatever Bella needed him to be whether it was absent or friend or brother, whatever the role he would have played it. So then why wouldn't he/couldn't he be lover to her and friend of Jacob. It's absolutely possible that that is what he meant when he said that. Thank you for opeing my eyes a little wider.

The only issue I would have completely agreeing here would be that all three of them would have to agree that that was a possible relationship dynamic. And, I don't know that either Bella or Jacob would see it as rationally as Edward, that that kind of triangle was doable. That will remain the x factor for me there. But it certainly doesn't erase the possibility.

He knows that no matter how hard he tries not to, he's going to hurt her.

I thought from his reaction the morning after their wedding night, that he was planning on not hurting her at all. He knew it was going to be difficult, and he was planning on either Bella letting him know or figuring it out himself that he had hurt her even just a little bit, and then he would stop. He had no idea what to expect, poor guy, and was a bit naive about it, I think. [Sorry about the syntax - I'm on cold medicine, and I can't make it better with my head this garbled.]

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for listening. -Ariadnee[/quote]

Yes, he was planning on not hurting her. But, I think, deep down he knew that it wasn't something he could prevent, at least not the first time. Edward is a smart man who understands physiology better than most. Just the pure physics of it; his stone body in repeated concussive contact with her soft one equals tissue damage, regardless of how in control he is. And, I don't think he underestimates at all Bella's ability to make him lose control a little, which increases the risk. So, while he never planned on hurting her, he knew he would.

This is honestly what makes his reaction the morning after on Isle Esme so infuriating to me. I can't imagine that in the time he's been with Bella, he's never noticed that she bruises easily. I am honestly shocked we haven't heard anything about it as I am sure he would obsess about any mark on her skin and she's sure to have picked up more than a few in 2 years. So, honestly, why would he be shocked that, in their passion for one another, she might have happily incurred a minor bruise or two?

PS I hope you get to feeling better soon, Ariadnee.

[Esme echo]

Umm, I think it was more than a minor bruise or two. Bella described it as "a faint shadow across one of my cheekbones, and my lips were a little swollen . . . the rest of me was decorated with patches of blue and purple." And it was going to be worse the next day.

I, too, was mad at Edward for blowing Bella's bruising all out of porportion. With his heightened senses, he would have known immediately if Bella was experiencing discomfort -- she wouldn't be able to hide a gasp, etc. from him, even if he was distracted.

I disagree with ariadnee. I don't think Edward was offering to share Bella at that point. I think he was still focusing on either/or. His offer to share Bella in BD was pure desperation. Bella herself would never have gone for that. She had finally realized in the infamous "Ethics" chapter of Eclipse that she had to choose one or the other.

[amethyst]

I agree with you Esme Echo about Bella’s happiness weighing more in comparison to his desires and just about everything else.

One of the things Edward says after she wakes up after her night in hysterics is “If it hurts you so much, how can it possibly be the right thing for you?” - as apposed to “If it hurts you so much, how can I possibly be the right thing for you?” - because Eclipse was a choice between humanity and vampirism (hence the “it”) or life and death, and not a choice between Edward and Jacob. Because lets face it, Edward fought to keep Bella human more than anyone else (i.e encouraging her and Jacob for a start . . .) . Edward wants humanity for Bella more than she wants it herself, more than he wants Bella for himself. He is willing to sacrifice his happiness in return of giving Bella “life” (as was extrapolated in new moon)

In Bella’s night of hysterics, I am not entirely convinced that she cried for Jacob only - he was certainly part of it, but a small part. What ached her more what she was giving up. SM said that every aspect of the series revolves around this one point and that realization of the sacrifices and the finality of her decision cut deep - and to Edward too. Seeing her in pain because of the inevitable “death” cut him much deeper as well (thus the “you can have any part of me, or non at all if you wish" from before) . However, I am not entirely imbued either that the hysteria was what shook him, rather the experience of eclipse - wholly - for the most part.

I am not sure Edward was planning on sharing Bella in breaking dawn - I thought he was giving her up so he can save her, not a three way relationship between the three of the them. That’s disturbing.

[Jazz Girl]

I disagree with ariadnee. I don't think Edward was offering to share Bella at that point. I think he was still focusing on either/or. His offer to share Bella in BD was pure desperation. Bella herself would never have gone for that. She had finally realized in the infamous "Ethics" chapter of Eclipse that she had to choose one or the other.

I am not sure Edward was planning on sharing Bella in breaking dawn - I thought he was giving her up so he can save her, not a three way relationship between the three of the them. That’s disturbing.

I think I have to clarify here, just to be sure. I won't speak for Ariadnee directly, but I feel safe in saying she would agree with me. I did not mean to imply Edward was advocating a lover's triangle with Bella romantically linked to both he and Jacob. What I mean here is that Edward did not want to force an end to the friendship between Bella and Jacob. He realized how important Jake was in Bella's life, acknowledges it when he says in Eclipse, "when I left you, Bella, I left you bleeding. Jacob was the one to stitch you back up again. That was bound to leave its mark--on both of you. I'm not sure those kinds of stitches dissolve on their own. I can't blame either of you for something I made necessary." (p534) He was essentially telling Bella that he could accept Bella not cutting Jacob out of her life, remaining friends with him.

But, as I said before, the problem with that scenario is that it has to be okay on all sides. That would never have worked for either Bella or Jacob. Bella would never have been able to resolve her feelings for Jacob and truly give herself to Edward as she felt he deserved. And, she would continue to hurt Jacob by not choosing him. And, Jacob could never accept that Edward intended to change Bella, could never stand by while it happened. So, yes, Edward might have been okay with that relationship, but it never would have worked for Bella or Jacob. Bella was so much smarter than Edward here, realizing that she had to choose.

I hope that clarifies the position a little bit. I completely agree with you, Amethyst, the lover's triangle would have been beyond creeptacular.

[ariadnee]

I think I have to clarify here, just to be sure. I won't speak for Ariadnee directly, but I feel safe in saying she would agree with me. I did not mean to imply Edward was advocating a lover's triangle with Bella romantically linked to both he and Jacob. What I mean here is that Edward did not want to force an end to the friendship between Bella and Jacob. He realized how important Jake was in Bella's life, acknowledges it when he says in Eclipse, "when I left you, Bella, I left you bleeding. Jacob was the one to stitch you back up again. That was bound to leave its mark--on both of you. I'm not sure those kinds of stitches dissolve on their own. I can't blame either of you for something I made necessary." (p534) He was essentially telling Bella that he could accept Bella not cutting Jacob out of her life, remaining friends with him.

Thank you, Jazz Girl, that was exactly what I meant with my comments on Edward at the end of Eclipse - I apologize if my posts are less than clear. I'm going to blame cold medicine again.

Thanks for the good wishes. -Ariadnee

[Jazz Girl]

I need to delve back a little. During this latest discussion, several of you mentioned Edward's offer...idea...insane musing...(pick which ever you think applies) in BD to try to give Bella the baby he thinks she wants. Jake's thoughts: "What was he saying? That Bella whould, what? Have a baby? With me? What? How? Was he giving her up? Or did he think she wouldn't mind being shared?" (p 181) Edward's thoughts are so insanely confused, not even he, let alone Jacob, can figure them out.
So, here's my question: What did Edward really mean by "the offer"? Was he asking Jacob to stud for him, get Bella pregnant and then step aside? Or did he truly intend to give Bella up to him?

[Esme echo]

I don't think he cared--any of the above--as long as Bella survived. Of course, Edward was beyond recognizing that Bella would never go there. Jacob was definately more sane.

Harking back to an earlier discussion, Jazz Girl, you made a brilliant post about the effect Bella's hysterical cry the night following her discussion with Jacob in the Ethics chapter had on Edward. I was thinking this morning, I wonder if Bella talked in her sleep that night, and whatever she said contributed to Edward's state of mind?

[eclipserox]

I agree with Esme Echo. At that point, Edward would do ANYTHING that might save Bella's life, including share her, give her up, let her have a baby with someone else and then take her back...anything. I do think he must have known it was a long shot. He was trying desperately to get through to Bella and nothing was working. This was a final failed attempt that he hoped might work, but didn't really expect to.

[eclipserox]

Sorry for the double post. A new question occurred to me. I warn you this is kind of out there.

If Jacob had been the good vampire with Jacob Black's personality and Edward had been the werewolf with Edward Cullen's personality, how would things have played out?
1. If Bella got to know Jacob the vampire at school and started dating him before she got to know Edward the werewolf at La Push well, would she have been with Jacob?
2. Would Jacob have left at some point, as Edward did, if he thought he was putting Bella in danger?
3. If Jacob the vampire eventually impregnated Bella and Bella was having a difficult, life threatening pregnancy, how would Jacob and Edward the werewolf react? Would it be any different from how things actually played out?

[Jazz Girl]

I don't think he cared--any of the above--as long as Bella survived. Of course, Edward was beyond recognizing that Bella would never go there. Jacob was definately more sane.

Harking back to an earlier discussion, Jazz Girl, you made a brilliant post about the effect Bella's hysterical cry the night following her discussion with Jacob in the Ethics chapter had on Edward. I was thinking this morning, I wonder if Bella talked in her sleep that night, and whatever she said contributed to Edward's state of mind?

Esme Echo, thanks for the praise. That scene, that passage, is so visceral and real for me. It kills me every time I read it. It's nice to think I have a bit of a grasp on what is going on. That being said, I don't think there is any doubt that Bella's grief continued into her dreams that night. I actually wonder if she was so incoherent that Edward could even tell the difference between her waking grief and her sleeping ramblings. But, of course, at least with his heightened senses, he would sense the difference in heart rate and breathing. Anyway, I digress. I think that what she said in her sleep would have had a more profound effect on him, given him so much more to torture himself with than he already had. Edward has always appreciated greatly that Bella talks in her sleep. He's always suspected that she edits her thoughts when talking to him. So, he would view those things she says in her sleep as unedited, unprotected, thoughts, the next best thing to getting a glimpse inside her head. I believe he probably paid even more attention to her words once she was asleep, seeing them as a true insight into what she was thinking and feeling, vs what she said while she was conscious of his presence. And, no, I don't even want to think about the things that came out of her mouth.