Edward Cullen #5

[December]

However, there is some scene where van tries to take her out existence that keeps popping into my head as I read your various post.

hahaha. Very amusing, Kachiti.... (*grin*)

But more seriously...of course you're right -- there's a huge problem anytime you try and discuss counterfactuals. Change one jot of the past and all kinds of consequences propagate forward into the future. So yes, strictly speaking, if Edward had never existed, Bella would probably be pushing up the daisies in the Forks cemetery, as she observes to Edward in TW. No marriage of soul-mates, and little dark-headed children and all the rest with Jake. Then again...if Edward hadn't existed, perhaps she wouldn't have been parked where she did, or would have arrived a little later (because she wasn't so eager to get to school and see him again) or...whatever. There's a million million unknowns we can't begin to guess at if we take Edward out of Bella's life.

I think there's still some interest (and fun) to be got out of surmising what kind of relationship Jake and Bella would have had if she'd never met Edward -- because it's a way of exploring just how deep that relationship seems to us. But you're right: there's a limit to the deductive force of any arguments we can advance one way or the other, because what we're talking about is total fiction. (Er, I mean even more of a fiction *grin*). We basically have to cheat and specify a whole lot of conditions: assuming that Bella survives her second week of school, and she still meets Jake at La Push (or through Charlie and Billy) even though she's not trying to worm information about Edward out of him, etc etc. And then we can decide what would have become of Bella and Jake....

[holdingoutforjacob]

You guys have made some validated points and your right HOFJ that Jacob and Bella would be friends without her meeting Edward. However, there is some scene where van tries to take her out existence that keeps popping into my head as I read your various post.

You make a very good point, and yeah, it's definitely a catch in the theory. However, and a lot of people forget this because, well, it's a tiny little sentence, but Bella actually was ahead of schedule and in a rush to get to school to see Edward. Ergo, if one chooses to, one can believe that had she NOT been already infatuated with Edward, she would have left later, and would have been too late to get smooshed by said van. Or, one can believe that she still gets smooshed. Whatever floats your boat.

I definitely just realized that December already said that... oh well.

I think that we can know for sure that if she survives the van, she at least meets Jacob, because the La Push trip was planned without any connection to Edward.

[December]

I definitely just realized that December already said that... oh well.

Heh. Great minds or something....

Glad to have you confirm that idea though, because I was just guessing -- or maybe semi-remembering. As for Bella's going to La Push, though...seems to me it's neither here nor there. On the one hand...without Edward on her mind, I'm not sure she'd have gone to the trouble to sweep Jake off for that intimate walk. On the other...it's hard to believe that Charlie wouldn't have brought them together soon anyway, whether or not she'd already got to know Jake. Aren't counterfactuals annoying?....

[December]

Okay. Jacob. In the interest of doing our best to help out December, who has been working VERY hard to get these forums back on track recently, this is the last time I figure we should get into this here. Jacob has a perfectly good thread where we can explore this issue in great depth, and I think we should.

Heh. Well thank you....(*grin*)

You know....I'm beginning to think we need an Edward/Bella/Jake thread. Seems like it's hard to talk about Edward and Bella's relationship without Jake coming into the conversation! But (as some of you have observed before) there's no thread where the discussion can range freely over all three characters.

Now there's a reason why we don't currently have a thread for discussing and Bella's relationships with both Edward AND Jake. That love triangle is a notorious flashpoint for skirmishes between Team Jacob and Team Edward -- and I'm reluctant to start one unless everyone can keep the discussion calm and friendly. But if you can all do your part, I'm willing to give it a shot. It would certainly allow the conversation to flow more naturally to be licensed to discuss all three characters at once.

It's getting late here now, but I'll see what I can do tomorrow In the meantime, carry on: if there's conversation here that would be better on an Edward/Bella/Jake thread -- assuming we set up such a thread -- it can always be moved.

g'night all!

[holdingoutforjacob]

I definitely just realized that December already said that... oh well.

Heh. Great minds or something....

Glad to have you confirm that idea though, because I was just guessing -- or maybe semi-remembering. As for Bella's going to La Push, though...seems to me it's neither here nor there. On the one hand...without Edward on her mind, I'm not sure she'd have gone to the trouble to sweep Jake off for that intimate walk. On the other...it's hard to believe that Charlie wouldn't have brought them together soon anyway, whether or not she'd already got to know Jake. Aren't counterfactuals annoying?....

It's literally one sentence, I had all but forgotten until I reread Twilight more thoroughly.



Jacob actually introduces himself to Bella, and that's when she immediately takes a liking to him. So the intimate walk may not have happened, but that's not as important, in my opinion, as the two of them establishing that the other is, for lack of a better word, cool. I think SM meant it to be this way, with us being easily and logically able to put Bella and Jacob together had there been no Edward, because she definitely meant for Jacob to represent what Bella could have and would have had, her human life and options.

As for an Edward/Bella/Jacob thread, my fear is that it will become an Edward vs. Jacob thread very, VERY easily. We already have to work to keep our discussions from becoming that, and some people can't seem to build Edward up without tearing Jacob down, and vice versa. It's also an emotional thing, and the argument of "who's better?" is pointless because they both have a billion strengths and a few weaknesses. The question of "who's better for Bella" is also silly, because obviously they are equally good for her, since she fell in love with both of them, but she loved Edward in a crazy-strong supernatural way.

A Bella and Jacob thread, however, would maybe be a good start?? It would be the perfect place to stick this interesting little tangent, as it seems to have little to do with Edward himself.

[ringswraith]

...

[December]

As for an Edward/Bella/Jacob thread, my fear is that it will become an Edward vs. Jacob thread very, VERY easily. We already have to work to keep our discussions from becoming that, and some people can't seem to build Edward up without tearing Jacob down, and vice versa.

Believe me, I know!

And it will only get worse as the NM film stirs people's passions. On the other hand, we don't want to put up roadblocks to sensible discussion by sensible people. And you are all experienced, sensible people, right? (*grin*). As Rings points out, the subject is going to keep coming up, one way or another, whatever you do. I think I'd rather have it all in one place. At least a three-character thread keeps the issues clear: the problem isn't getting off-topic, it's getting off-courtesy!

I'm certainly not averse to having a Jake and Bella thread (as you say, the current discussion could go there nicely)...it's just that I can just see Edward creeping into those discussions too.

the argument of "who's better?" is pointless because they both have a billion strengths and a few weaknesses. The question of "who's better for Bella" is also silly, because obviously they are equally good for her, since she fell in love with both of them, but she loved Edward in a crazy-strong supernatural way.

I guess I see it like this: there IS a real argument to be had here. Not between the warm russet boy and the cold pale one -- that's entirely a matter of personal taste, and LisaCullenAZ put it, as pointless as debating a preference for chocolate or cheesecake -- but between a natural human love (and life) and a transcendent, supernatural one. That's certainly the way Stephenie presented it when Ec came out -- and there have been some excellent discussions of this on the old Lex. It is not a trivial question: whether any love is worth giving your life up for, whether eternity is a gift or a curse, whether Bella has been blessed by her love for Edward or doomed. (And note that Stephenie herself has often said she couldn't make the choice Bella does).

But you're absolutely right, unless the level of the conversation can rise above "this boy would be awesomer for Bella!" it's a waste of everyone's time. I'd depend on all present to help steer it constructively (if tactfully). But I'm hoping a thread that's wide enough to take in the love triangle, can find other aspects of Edward, Bella and Jake's relationships to talk about too.

Perhaps creation of the thread should start with rules for posts within.

You betcha! All suggestions welcome -- just send me a pm.

[Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3]

I like the idea of an Edward/Bella/Jacob thread because at the Jacob thread sometimes topics start forming about Edward, and at the Edward thread things form about Jacob and at the Bella thread it's just all 3 jumbled up because she's mentioned pretty much in every character thread somehow. But I agree, things wouldn't go over too well and then...well, people will begin to defend their favorite characters in an aggressive form.

About the theory of Edward never existing *shudder*, I'm a little iffy. Time is something we can't control. So maybe Bella would've gotten to school on time and smothered by van. But then again she could survive, or could die. Or maybe she would've been late and not smothered by the van. Or perhaps her feelings could've been completely changed and she didn't like Jacob more than a friend and went for some other human. *cringe* But then again I'm just going completely off base making absurd theories or assumptions. Really it's easier to say, anything could happen.

[diane771]

I like the idea of an Edward/Bella/Jacob thread because at the Jacob thread sometimes topics start forming about Edward, and at the Edward thread things form about Jacob and at the Bella thread it's just all 3 jumbled up because she's mentioned pretty much in every character thread somehow. But I agree, things wouldn't go over too well and then...well, people will begin to defend their favorite characters in an aggressive form.

About the theory of Edward never existing *shudder*, I'm a little iffy. Time is something we can't control. So maybe Bella would've gotten to school on time and smothered by van. But then again she could survive, or could die. Or maybe she would've been late and not smothered by the van. Or perhaps her feelings could've been completely changed and she didn't like Jacob more than a friend and went for some other human. *cringe* But then again I'm just going completely off base making absurd theories or assumptions. Really it's easier to say, anything could happen.

I totally agree, its impossible to see what Bella's life would be without her meeting Edward and to say right out that she would be with Jacob is something I do not see at all. Jacob is link to Bella through Edward and that link would not be there. Thats just my opinion of reading the book and just not having Edward in it I see nothing to say that would lead to that conclusion.

[holdingoutforjacob]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but Jacob's link to Bella is actually not Edward, it's just not. He sees her a few times in Twilight that have absolutely nothing to do with Edward. I've shown you a logical thesis as to my opinions on how that could happen, which you've chosen to ignore, unfortunately. Also, I'm pretty sure that Stephenie has been telling us in multiple ways, through the books and through interviews, etc., that Jacob represents Bella's natural life and Edward represents the supernatural, and Eclipse was basically about her realization that a viable natural life did exist for her, that she DID have another option, and that she WAS giving something up to be with Edward and that she was going to do it ANYWAY, underlining the absolute strength of the all-encompassing love she felt for Edward.

Anyway, back to Edward, what I really love about him is that no matter what, he puts Bella first. Even though sometimes his way of putting her first is not, exactly in reality the best thing to do, in his eyes he does everything he does for her good and not his own. I can't imagine being so selfless that I would actually want my one true love to choose someone else for their own good. I mean, I guess I wouldn't want someone to marry me when they loved someone else more, but I wouldn't hope for them to love someone else more, and a part of Edward, however big, wanted that.