Edward and Bella 2

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The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

New addition to the over all discussion:

Edward leaves Bella, and we know from MS he decided first to track Victoria and fails. Unlike Victoria he fails Su Tzu art of war lessons. Victoria contacts Laurent to get Intel on what the Cullen’s are capable of, talents, skills and likely course of actions. Edward on the other had does not speak to Laurent nor does he prevent the leak of information about him and his family. That's how Victoria is able to avoid Alice visions.

Here's what he should have done. First after leaving go directly to the Denial clan, ask them not to divulge anything about the Cullen’s to Laurent. Then he should have interrogated Laurent about Victoria to gain as much Intel about her as possible. He could have even made a few threats to Laurent to help in the safety of Bella. Once the leak was closed and information gathered he should then proceed with the hunt to destroy Victoria. His hunting party should have consisted of Jasper, Emmett and Alice. The four of them could have tacked and disposed of Victoria fairly quickly with their talents.

This is one of those times that Edward was arrogant and it cost 30+ lives. Here’s another reason Edward inaction or ineptitude leaves some down stream blame on him. Edward knows that the love between vampires is stronger than any human form of love. He had to know that leaving Victoria alive would come back to haunt him sooner or later. By the way I knew after the first death in Seattle it was Victoria why didn’t Edward? Too love sick I think…

Batters up…curve ball delivered… 8-)
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"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."
moon sidhe
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by moon sidhe »

I originally posted this in the Edward forum but Dark Knight kindly pointed out that it was relevant to an earlier discussion in this thread about Edward's decision to leave Bella, so here it is:

At the risk of incurring some wrath from the younger readers, I really don't think that Edward was wrong to have thought that maybe Bella didn't fully comprehend the consequences of her request to become immortal. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a love-smitten teenager would tend to act irrationally (or anyone love-smitten really). And that, having only lived ~20% of a full human life time (compared to his 140%), she might not understand the meaning of forever, or absolutely irrevocable consequences. But beyond that, Edward fully understood what it feels like to desire blood, to want to kill, and to have killed others. How could anyone reasonable want that for someone they love? That being said, he most definitely went about it the wrong way. He didn't try to talk to her about it, to have a real discussion where he considered her voice as an equal to his own. He just left, which is completely idiotic. Idiot, idiot, idiot. (I'm not sure I emphasized that enough. heh) I understand his reasoning, but it was stupid and wrong IMO, even if his intentions were pure. He was definitely right in asking her to wait, and in thinking that maybe her decision would change. As the reader, we have the insight to know that their love is pure, and true, and forever, and could never ever change, because this is essentially a fairy tale, and we know the rules. But Edward decidedly doesn't know it's a fairy tale, and he's not wrong to think that emotions can change over time (especially erratic human teenage emotions, which are not quire as immovable as those of a vampire).
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
opulent
Learning to Love Green
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent »

No, I don't hate you DK. You haven't reached my oldest brother's level of obnoxiousness yet, so you are still in the clear. :mrgreen:

But I respectfully maintain that you are wrong about the gray areas. The gray areas are a matter of differing opinions and emotions - yes; but there are certain matters in life that absolutely cannot be brought down to black or white. Emotions and opinions are valid aspects of mankind. They cannot be discounted. The right decision for one person may bother the conscience of another.
Most of the laws in most countries are based on a collective conscience. But the laws in one country pertaining to murder will be different from that of another, because cultural differences result in different conscience decisions. Heck, even in the same country people disagree. Are you going to tell people in Iran that they are wrong because you disagree? Hopefully not, considering they come from a very different background, and would therefore place blame differently. You would need to realize that this is a gray area - you have your opinion, and they have theirs, and you can't tell them they are wrong. Same thing here. My conscience doesn't tell me Edward is in the wrong - yours does. I have to accept that and move on. I just hope that you realize that neither one of us is wrong in cases such as this, because this is a gray area.

And I guess that was a stupid comment about the evil of drugs - I kindly give you my permission to make more fun of me should you so desire. :oops: I guess what I meant, if I may clarify, is that most Edward-lovers on here don't consider Edward evil. I know I don't. Okay. . .you can stop laughing now. . .And it isn't like Edward is making other people evil or influencing them to commit heinous acts. He does not give Victoria the tools she needs to create the newborns, nor does he suggest that she do so. So how would that exactly make him the meth manufacturer?

And true, I agree that blame usually needs to be attached somewhere in the case of a death. In the case of Victoria, though, I still maintain that she still made her own decision. You know, if I were going down the same blame path that you are, I could say that Carlisle would be at fault for causing Edward to "have a conscience", for making him not want to be a monster. Therefore, because Edward feels that way, he chose not to change Bella. In the end, Carlisle is at fault for all of this. But he isn't, and I doubt you would find anyone on here who would agree with that sentiment.

I still say that it would have been wrong of him to change Bella without her consent or her thinking thoroughly on the subject. When Edward saw the vision of Bella as a vampire, he didn't know that she would be willing to become one. That makes it wrong of him, to force her into a life that he doesn't yet know whether or not she wants. It wasn't inaction on his part that was the problem per se - he was respecting that she was human, and that it should be her decision to make whether or not she becomes a vampire, and that was one of the reasons that holds him back throughout the entire series.

And logic is nice and all, as are proofs. But, as you pointed out, this all leads back to opinions and emotions. Everyone knows that logic doesn't always apply to these two areas, especially where the passionate emotions of vampires are concerned.
Last edited by opulent on Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Plus que ma propre vie."
opulent
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent »

The Dark Knight wrote:New addition to the over all discussion:
This is one of those times that Edward was arrogant and it cost 30+ lives. Here’s another reason Edward inaction or ineptitude leaves some down stream blame on him. Edward knows that the love between vampires is stronger than any human form of love. He had to know that leaving Victoria alive would come back to haunt him sooner or later. By the way I knew after the first death in Seattle it was Victoria why didn’t Edward? Too love sick I think…

Batters up…curve ball delivered… 8-)
But Edward also told Bella that he didn't see the attachment that Victoria had for James. If Edward was to be believed, James didn't have any true affection for Victoria. I don't think Edward can be faulted for not being level headed enough at the baseball game for not taking the time to thoroughly read Victoria's mind. He was therefore safe to assume that her attachment wasn't as great as James, so he didn't have the "vampire love" reason to think that she would want revenge.
Although. . . even if he didn't think she would want revenge out of love, it is made perfectly clear that revenge is something most vampires thirst for, so he should have caught that one. . .I will give you that.

And you knew it was Victoria, yes, because while we readers may not be totally omniscient regarding the plot, we still know more than the characters do. Without any logical connection to Victoria, since Alice could not connect her with the newborns, there was no way he "should have" figured out the connection before the killings became more rampant.
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"Plus que ma propre vie."
holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

Well here's another flaw to the drug dealer analogy.

In the case of drug dealing chain reactions, all members of the chain are prosecuted, correct. I.E. the kid who bought it, had he not died, would have been arrested, as would the dealer and the manufacturer. All three were committing crimes. All three were doing something wrong.

However, Edward, in killing James, was not doing something wrong. Edward, in killing James, was ending the life of a murderer to save that of an innocent.

Also, the meth dealer intended the buyer to have the drugs - another fundamental difference. Edward did not intend for Victoria to do anything. In fact, I bet, if faced with a devastated Victoria, he would have felt quite guilty for causing her anguish, but known that he had only done what needed to be done.

A chain reaction that started with someone doing the right thing that set someone else off into doing something that was totally unintended and unpredicted cannot be equated with such an intended and linear chain reaction as you provided.

Moon Sidhe - I responded to your post in the Edward thread..... sorry!
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death cannot stop true love, it can only delay it for a while...
The Dark Knight
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

opulent wrote:No, I don't hate you DK. You haven't reached my oldest brother's level of obnoxiousness yet, so you are still in the clear. :mrgreen:

But I respectfully maintain that you are wrong about the gray areas. The gray areas are a matter of differing opinions and emotions - yes; but there are certain matters in life that absolutely cannot be brought down to black or white. Emotions and opinions are valid aspects of mankind. They cannot be discounted. The right decision for one person may bother the conscience of another.
Most of the laws in most countries are based on a collective conscience. But the laws in one country pertaining to murder will be different from that of another, because cultural differences result in different conscience decisions. Heck, even in the same country people disagree. Are you going to tell people in Iran that they are wrong because you disagree? Hopefully not, considering they come from a very different background, and would therefore place blame differently. You would need to realize that this is a gray area - you have your opinion, and they have theirs, and you can't tell them they are wrong. Same thing here. My conscience doesn't tell me Edward is in the wrong - yours does. I have to accept that and move on. I just hope that you realize that neither one of us is wrong in cases such as this, because this is a gray area.

And I guess that was a stupid comment about the evil of drugs - I kindly give you my permission to make more fun of me should you so desire. :oops: I guess what I meant, if I may clarify, is that most Edward-lovers on here don't consider Edward evil. I know I don't. Okay. . .you can stop laughing now. . .And it isn't like Edward is making other people evil or influencing them to commit heinous acts. He does not give Victoria the tools she needs to create the newborns, nor does he suggest that she do so. So how would that exactly make him the meth manufacturer?

And true, I agree that blame usually needs to be attached somewhere in the case of a death. In the case of Victoria, though, I still maintain that she still made her own decision. You know, if I were going down the same blame path that you are, I could say that Carlisle would be at fault for causing Edward to "have a conscience", for making him not want to be a monster. Therefore, because Edward feels that way, he chose not to change Bella. In the end, Carlisle is at fault for all of this. But he isn't, and I doubt you would find anyone on here who would agree with that sentiment.

I still say that it would have been wrong of him to change Bella without her consent or her thinking thoroughly on the subject. When Edward saw the vision of Bella as a vampire, he didn't know that she would be willing to become one. That makes it wrong of him, to force her into a life that he doesn't yet know whether or not she wants. It wasn't inaction on his part that was the problem per se - he was respecting that she was human, and that it should be her decision to make whether or not she becomes a vampire, and that was one of the reasons that holds him back throughout the entire series.

And logic is nice and all, as are proofs. But, as you pointed out, this all leads back to opinions and emotions. Everyone knows that logic doesn't always apply to these two areas, especially where the passionate emotions of vampires are concerned.

Oh opulent, you can keep you emotional attachment to Edward. They are yours and I do not wish to come across as discounting them, and I truly hope that it does not seem that way. I am however posing alternative views that hopefully expand the box, in this case the consciousness box by bringing out of the box concepts into play. Yes abstract views are us.

By the way I do think Carlisle is at fault, he force his way of life on Edward without his consent...but that is another thread for another day maybe...

Let me let you in on a secret, I think changing Bella in the first meadow would be wrong too but I do think she should have been change right after the Volturi in New Moon. Too much to risk IMO. Remember the original question was about how things would be different if Edward had changed Bella in the meadow the first time. It has snaked its way here...hope you enjoy the ride...
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The Dark Knight
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Well here's another flaw to the drug dealer analogy.

In the case of drug dealing chain reactions, all members of the chain are prosecuted, correct. I.E. the kid who bought it, had he not died, would have been arrested, as would the dealer and the manufacturer. All three were committing crimes. All three were doing something wrong.

However, Edward, in killing James, was not doing something wrong. Edward, in killing James, was ending the life of a murderer to save that of an innocent.

Also, the meth dealer intended the buyer to have the drugs - another fundamental difference. Edward did not intend for Victoria to do anything. In fact, I bet, if faced with a devastated Victoria, he would have felt quite guilty for causing her anguish, but known that he had only done what needed to be done.

A chain reaction that started with someone doing the right thing that set someone else off into doing something that was totally unintended and unpredicted cannot be equated with such an intended and linear chain reaction as you provided.

Moon Sidhe - I responded to your post in the Edward thread..... sorry!
Actually, if we humans found out Edward was a vampire and James too with Bella being an accomplice I dare say we would prosecute them, I mean kill them after the appropriate experimentation had been preformed...Evil begets evil right? So no whole in the theory at all...All of them are bad buys in human terms...
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"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."
opulent
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent »

y'know DK, I had a teacher in high school whom you remind me a lot of. He would argue the opposite side, even if he completely disagreed with it, just so that we could broaden our horizons.
I am sorry if I got a little too . . .emotional about Edward. Honestly, I will admit I love him, but usually I have a little bit too much pride to admit how attached I am to him. It's too embarrassing. Geez, I should stop while I am ahead. I am begging you, please, please, please don't count me in the rabid Edward fans, everyone. . .That is one place I do not want to be.

And you really think Carlisle is at fault? Interesting. . .Not saying you are wrong. Just. . .interesting.

I do agree Bella had a point about needing to change in NM. It was too dangerous, and I think Edward should have gotten over his issues. I think the idea he had about hiding Bella and he could "take care of himself" was idiotic. He knew how he felt when he thought Bella was dead. Under that plan, if he got himself killed, then Bella would have felt exactly the same way. He wasn't thinking very far ahead on that one.

Wow. I need to go get a hobby and get out of the house. Any good suggestions anyone?
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"Plus que ma propre vie."
Dovrebanen
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Dovrebanen »

Opulent - You made some very good points. IMO life is never black or white. Nothing we do can be separated into those categories. I know that you want to see it that way, DK, but it's just not working for me. Like I've said before, even taking someone's life is not black or white. You still have to look at the intentions behind. Was it an accident? Was it on purpose? What was the age and state of mind of the person doing it? All of these are grey areas. And also in life you can't always rely on hard facts when making a decision. You have to do what is right for you in the given situation, and sometime you just have to go with your instincts.

I also agree that most of the people who like Edward, do not see him as evil. Quite the opposite in fact. I see someone struggeling so hard to be something else than what nature intended him to be. He did slip at one point, but since then he has tried to be the best person he can. Why is he a monster? The only monster is the one that he sees in himself.

DK - You said that Edward should have known that Victoria would come back when he lost track of her in South America. But by that point he was removed from Bella's world. He thought that she was safe. And he had no way of knowing that Victoria would come after Bella. She had given him no reason to believe that, and she stayed at a distance from him and Alice to make sure they didn't know what she was up to. Ergo...Edward had no reason to think that Victoria would come after Bella. Since James and Victoria didn't seem to have a connection at all, and James appeared to be the weaker part in the group. Edward had all reason to think that Victoria would go her own way.

Changing her right after the Volturi would still be wrong, IMO. They were just getting back together. Bella was not ready. She might have thought she was, but she wasn't. Like moon sidhe says, Bella had hardly lived her life at all. How could she know what she wanted? She knew she wanted Edward, but I don't think she understood the concept of forever. And she certainly didn't see the hardships with being a vampire clearly. Why would Edward condemn the person he loved to an existence that none of the Cullens would have chosen if they could have chosen differently? The both needed time to deal with their issues. Bella needed time to deal with what she would be giving up. To weigh the pros and cons. Edward needed time to realize that he wasn't a monster and that he had brought happiness to Bella's life. And changing her in NM would be as a response to an external threath early in their relationship. There was danger yes, but she still wasn't ready for it. And like Edward said, she shouldn't make that kind of decision because she was scared. That would be for the wrong reasons. At least when he did change her BD, Edward knew that Bella was sure. She chose him and Renesmee forever, based on as much information as possible. IMO if Edward were to change Bella sooner it would be without her informed consent, because she simply didn't have the facts necessary to make that decision until Eclipse/BD.

Now this might be twisted into some Team Edward defense...But it's really not. This is just me using my common sense and the way I look at the world. I see Edward's faults, but not on this one. I don't even see his arrogance here. Even though he disregarded what Bella wanted, it was because he in fact knew better on this one. He lived the life that she wanted. He knew what it was like being a newborn. He knew what it felt like to be without your human family. He clearly didn't want that for her.

Opulent - No, just stay here with us. It's much more fun that hobbies :D
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The Dark Knight
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

opulent wrote:y'know DK, I had a teacher in high school whom you remind me a lot of. He would argue the opposite side, even if he completely disagreed with it, just so that we could broaden our horizons.
I am sorry if I got a little too . . .emotional about Edward. Honestly, I will admit I love him, but usually I have a little bit too much pride to admit how attached I am to him. It's too embarrassing. Geez, I should stop while I am ahead. I am begging you, please, please, please don't count me in the rabid Edward fans, everyone. . .That is one place I do not want to be.

And you really think Carlisle is at fault? Interesting. . .Not saying you are wrong. Just. . .interesting.

I do agree Bella had a point about needing to change in NM. It was too dangerous, and I think Edward should have gotten over his issues. I think the idea he had about hiding Bella and he could "take care of himself" was idiotic. He knew how he felt when he thought Bella was dead. Under that plan, if he got himself killed, then Bella would have felt exactly the same way. He wasn't thinking very far ahead on that one.

Wow. I need to go get a hobby and get out of the house. Any good suggestions anyone?
My students, who are all adults, say things like you said all the time...Pretty funny. I bet most on here would not be able to guess when I'm serious about something and when I'm playing Devil's advocate. Good movie by the way.

No, you don't want me to place you in the legions of devout Edward followers, really? You're pulling my leg. Really? You have all the symptoms...are you sure you haven't been bitten... :lol: :lol: :lol: Pulse racing, dreaming of Edward in the meadow, breathless thoughts and even day dreams...maybe Carlisle should take a look at you... :D

I could suggests several hobbies, but I don't know your interest to make it appropriate...here's a few anyway, Bungee Jumping out of a hot air balloon (Note to self make sure the harness is in the correct location next time), Repelling out of Helicopters, water skiing, paint ball, how about something medieval Like the SCA (See SCA.org), hunting big game, fishing, Dirt bike riding or four wheeling. Take your pick...or you could take up Bella's, cliff diving, kissing monsters or that thing in Vegas... :oops:
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"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."
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