Edward and Bella 2

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The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

Dovrebanen wrote:I strongly believe in personal accountability. But only when it is justified and directed at the right person. Like HOFJ...I hold Victoria and James accountable for what they did. Yo can't hold someone accountable for events that they had no control over.
The Dark Knight wrote: Very good question HOFJ. Here's what I would have done, I would have killed James & Victoria at the baseball game & decided after soem strong interagation whether Laurent woudl live or not...Quote from Tomb Stone, Dr Holiday, "Why put of killen someone today when your just going to have to kill him tomorrow?" Problem sovled
So that would make Edward a better man in your opinion? To kill people right there on the spot. From what he knew at the time, Victoria was innocent and didn't know what James had planned. And for all he knew, Laurent was the leader and could possibly stop James. It was all a charade of course. But Edward didn't know that. And he was way to focused on Bella to look into their minds. And who can blame him for that..

To kill them in the field would have been going against what the Cullens believed in. And of course Edward was more worried about getting Bella out of there than killing James on the spot. What would she do during a fight in the baseball field? Just stand there while no one watched over her, and so anyone could take a snap at her?
How could Edward even think about Victoria maybe seeking revenge for her lost lover, that Edward didn't even know she had? And that she would create an army? No..You just can't hold Edward personally accountable for that. Too many events and decisons made in between to make that his responsiblity.

Further proof that love is blind or at least near sighted...it's ok Dovrebanen that you don't want Edward held accountable for his part. By the way, there are a lot of people in jail today that didn't foresee what would happen if they did XYZ.

The way it would have went down at the Baseball game, once Edward saw that James would never give up until he killed Bella, that's when he should of attacked James. Fairly quickly the numbers would play on his side, Esme would take Bella away, Emmett Jasper, Rose and Alice would join the fray as would Victoria (My money is on Rose over Victoria --Cat fight). Carlisle and Laurent would try to stop the fight with Laurent running like a little girl once the Cullen boys take down James and the Cullen girls butcher Victoria. Edward could easily catch Laurent in a foot race...Not a bad plan if I do say so myself...problem solved...they could still have beer and peanuts after words…
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"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

opulent
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent »

Okay, I think it is obvious I have made my opinion perfectly clear on this matter, but I will jump in one last time just for the heck of it.
You are right DK, plenty of people get jailed all the time for not planning enough ahead and then something down the road backfires on them.
But rarely does someone ever get convicted of murder if they weren't an accessory or if they didn't suggest it. Edward did neither in this case. He did not suggest that Victoria create the newborns. He did not suggest that she try to take revenge. And he clearly did not help her plan or execute her strategy - so tell me how he is an accessory?
Now I can see in your opinion why you are blaming Edward - like I said, this is one of those gray areas that each person must decide for themselves. But please explain to me how Edward could ever be legally held accountable for what Victoria decided to do all on her own.
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The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

opulent wrote:Okay, I think it is obvious I have made my opinion perfectly clear on this matter, but I will jump in one last time just for the heck of it.
You are right DK, plenty of people get jailed all the time for not planning enough ahead and then something down the road backfires on them.
But rarely does someone ever get convicted of murder if they weren't an accessory or if they didn't suggest it. Edward did neither in this case. He did not suggest that Victoria create the newborns. He did not suggest that she try to take revenge. And he clearly did not help her plan or execute her strategy - so tell me how he is an accessory?
Now I can see in your opinion why you are blaming Edward - like I said, this is one of those gray areas that each person must decide for themselves. But please explain to me how Edward could ever be legally held accountable for what Victoria decided to do all on her own.
By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
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"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

Dovrebanen
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Dovrebanen »

I don't believe that you find many people in jail who were totally unaware that what they were doing was wrong on some level. The only point where I see that happening is when children perform criminal acts. I mean, of course there are people who didn't clearly see the consequences of their actions, but on some level they know they are doing something illegal. (unless they are innocent, which is a whole other matter).
I know you believe, DK, that I'll defend Edward no matter what, and by that will never think I mean what I actually say and that I am only saying it because it's Edward. But not on this. This is obvious to me. Like Edward or not...He had no way of knowing what would happen. And I would defend anyone in this matter
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The Dark Knight wrote: By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
I just have to ask: Why are you not putting any responsibility on James? He is that one who would have killed Bella in the baseball field. He is the one who started the chase. Who tricked her into going to meet him, and who bit her and nearly killed her. And then got himself killed by the Cullens. Did he think about Victoria for one second? He started this. He was the one who couldn't leave Bella alone, because he had to have his hunt. And what about Victoria? Where is her responsiblity in your reasoning? A lot of people loose their loved ones in the most horrific ways, and I know that many of them want revenge. But very few of us actually act upon that desire for revenge. Victoria did. She had the choice, and she chose to go on a killing spree with a newborn army. That is why she is responsible.

Edward had no part in the planning of the hunt on Bella, or in the creation of the newborn army. There were stories about vendetta in the vampire world, but there are stories like that in the human world too. That doesn't mean that we all think everyone is going to go crazy and kill everyone in sight. Edward could never foresee this, and so he can't be held responsible IMO. But we both now we'll never agree this one, DK :D
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The Dark Knight
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

Dovrebanen wrote:I don't believe that you find many people in jail who were totally unaware that what they were doing was wrong on some level. The only point where I see that happening is when children perform criminal acts. I mean, of course there are people who didn't clearly see the consequences of their actions, but on some level they know they are doing something illegal. (unless they are innocent, which is a whole other matter).
I know you believe, DK, that I'll defend Edward no matter what, and by that will never think I mean what I actually say and that I am only saying it because it's Edward. But not on this. This is obvious to me. Like Edward or not...He had no way of knowing what would happen. And I would defend anyone in this matter
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The Dark Knight wrote: By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
I just have to ask: Why are you not putting any responsibility on James? He is that one who would have killed Bella in the baseball field. He is the one who started the chase. Who tricked her into going to meet him, and who bit her and nearly killed her. And then got himself killed by the Cullens. Did he think about Victoria for one second? He started this. He was the one who couldn't leave Bella alone, because he had to have his hunt. And what about Victoria? Where is her responsiblity in your reasoning? A lot of people loose their loved ones in the most horrific ways, and I know that many of them want revenge. But very few of us actually act upon that desire for revenge. Victoria did. She had the choice, and she chose to go on a killing spree with a newborn army. That is why she is responsible.

Edward had no part in the planning of the hunt on Bella, or in the creation of the newborn army. There were stories about vendetta in the vampire world, but there are stories like that in the human world too. That doesn't mean that we all think everyone is going to go crazy and kill everyone in sight. Edward could never foresee this, and so he can't be held responsible IMO. But we both now we'll never agree this one, DK :D

Dovrebanen, I truly believe that you believe your view point regardless of Edward or not. Really I do. It's clear to me that it's part of your make up and who you are, please keep that part as it will serve you well to have such strong convictions. That does not mean I won't have a bit of fun with it now and then, ok all the time? :lol: You know the whole Edward fanatic stuff is tongue and cheek to me. The cool-aid, the love is blind and all the other fun quips...I hope they make you smile not grind your teeth.

I'm not sure you have read all my post on this thread, There are a lot of them. On one of them I did put the larger share of blame of the 30+ deaths on Victoria with just a little less on James. You may have missed it in all the fun we are having, no harm no foul...I went on to say that Edward and Bella for that matter still had their share albeit lesser than V&J that they are not relieved from. Opulent, by mistake even lead it back to Carlisle for me. Sure she's rolling on the floor by feeding that one to me. But I digress.

The vamp stories given by Jasper are clear in how Vamps keep vendetta's for loss SO's. It is common place in the vamp world. Edward most assuredly saw this in Jasper mind more than just a few times. So it is safe to say that Edward knew the score. He just missed several opportunities to finish the job that needed to get done.

Did you read the post about how Edward should have track Victoria? It’s really good stuff…Let me see if I can find it and I will edit it back in here…

edit, Found it first try...

: Edward and Bella 2
by The Dark Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:24 am

New addition to the over all discussion:

Edward leaves Bella, and we know from MS he decided first to track Victoria and fails. Unlike Victoria he fails Su Tzu art of war lessons. Victoria contacts Laurent to get Intel on what the Cullen’s are capable of, talents, skills and likely course of actions. Edward on the other had does not speak to Laurent nor does he prevent the leak of information about him and his family. That's how Victoria is able to avoid Alice visions.

Here's what he should have done. First after leaving go directly to the Denial clan, ask them not to divulge anything about the Cullen’s to Laurent. Then he should have interrogated Laurent about Victoria to gain as much Intel about her as possible. He could have even made a few threats to Laurent to help in the safety of Bella. Once the leak was closed and information gathered he should then proceed with the hunt to destroy Victoria. His hunting party should have consisted of Jasper, Emmett and Alice. The four of them could have tacked and disposed of Victoria fairly quickly with their talents.

This is one of those times that Edward was arrogant and it cost 30+ lives. Here’s another reason Edward inaction or ineptitude leaves some down stream blame on him. Edward knows that the love between vampires is stronger than any human form of love. He had to know that leaving Victoria alive would come back to haunt him sooner or later. By the way I knew after the first death in Seattle it was Victoria why didn’t Edward? Too love sick I think…

Batters up…curve ball delivered…
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Asheleyo
Teaching Eric Social Graces
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Asheleyo »

The Dark Knight wrote:Cutting in below...
Asheleyo wrote:I know I may be behind, but I was reading and couldn't resist anymore not commenting. I'm a math major, so I know a few things about logic. And here's what's wrong with your example situation with the meth lab. If Edward were the dealer giving the meth to the market, in this comparison, he would not have slipped the anti-freeze in himself. The more comparable situation would be Edward-the-meth-dealer selling a perfectly clean batch to his distributers. One of the distributers purposefully slips something lethal in to the drugs and then sells them to individuals. Edward-the-meth-dealer is responsible for the meth being there, but he is not responsible for the poison within it because someone else took the situation out of his hands.

***Let me see if I can connect the dots for you better. Edward manufactured the drug pain and created the revenge that Victoria used to kill the 30+ kids in Seattle. As we all know the drug that is pain and revenge is powerful and should be forseeable but missed. Edward missed how much Victoria cared about James twice. He didn't read her at the baseball game and later he didn't question Laurent about it after leaving Bella in New Moon. Does this help clear up how Edward would fit in the drug analogy?

It's like saying that because a parent has a gun in the house and a child knows where it is, then the parent is responsible for the kid grabbing the gun and shooting someone with it, no matter what warning the parents may have given about the dangers of guns.

***Yes I agree the parent is responsible in this case. Even the courts agree with this. Although Victoria is not Edwards minor to take care of so this does not track as well.

I think the only place Edward and Bella would have had responsibility in deaths would be if Victoria came in the name of revenge and managed to take out one or more of the Cullens. Sure, Edward killed James and Victoria feels vindicated in her attempted retribution. So if Edward lets someone else get in the way of that retribution, if he doesn't face it head on and someone else gets killed in the process of protecting him and/or Bella, then he can hold some responsibility. But Victoria went so far out of the way as to bring in people who had nothing to do with the situation, completely innocent people. That decision is no responsibility of Edward or Bella's. Victoria takes full responsibility for their lives the minute she decides to change them against their will and use them to get even.

***I get your point but I don't buy it. I guess it comes down to this, do you believe in persoanl responsibility for your action or not. If not, then why have any laws at all? Off topic a bit, would you give the Devil the benefit of law?

I got your drug analogy just fine, but it wasn't appropriate for the situation. Because Edward didn't have a direct hand in the newborn thing. Yeah, he had a direct hand in Victoria's desire for revenge, which is why I say if she had killed one of his family he could feel responsible. But the fact is that she brought in a different, innocent party against their will all on her own, and Edward can't be held responsible for that, hence my analogy to one of his distributors, unknown to him, putting poison in the drugs.

Yes, I believe in personal accountability, but what you're asking Edward to be accountable for is the same as asking any person who has invented something and put it on the market to be accountable for what consumers do with their products. There's a right way to do revenge, and there's a wrong way. I know that sounds silly, but Victoria had no right to drag innocent lives into this. If she had enlisted the help of some of her vampire associates, who agreed to help out knowing full well they could die, it would be different. But she stole people's lives to create an army. There is no personal accountability in that particular action for Edward.

He handled the situation the only way he could. He had no intention of killing James, he just wanted to run until James gave up. He did the right thing by not killing them right away, not that he had the chance. But James made it clear that it was war and the only way he'd stop was when Edward came after him. Even in the law there are times that killing is ok. Edward was killing in defense of Bella. So yes, intentions do matter sometimes. It wasn't cold blooded murder. If James hadn't died then Bella would have. And after Bella was safe from James, it was too late to catch Victoria. Even if they had known about her love for James, it's unfair to expect them to have immediately gone out to try to kill her. They had to handle the situation of Bella having run off from her dad. And interrogating Laurent? What could he tell them? He told them that Victoria was not to be underestimated, but he said he'd only been with them for a little while, he wouldn't know where she'd run to. Laurent had already been helpful and now he was with the Denalis. Edward tried to track Victoria, but lost her. I don't know how you could expect more. And no one would expect that Victoria would want to kill Bella, not Edward who actually killed James.

Yes, I would give the Devil the benefit of the law, because I know the law does take into account the situation. The Devil doesn't kill to save lives, he kills to end them. And the law would see justice delivered.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.

Asheleyo
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Asheleyo »

The Dark Knight wrote:By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
That's a stretch of the imagination if I ever heard one. That would never hold up in any court because you can't be held responsible for someone else's decision when you have no ability to stop it. Providing a motive is not the same thing as being an accessory to anything. I can provide motive for someone to punch me just by being irritating, but it's up to the person how they handle it. And I might not even realize that I'm being irritating enough to warrant a punch, this person could just be sensitive or had a bad day. But that they do with their irritation is not my problem. Nor is it Edward or Bella's fault that Victoria killed people in her pursuit of vengeance.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight »

Asheleyo wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
That's a stretch of the imagination if I ever heard one. That would never hold up in any court because you can't be held responsible for someone else's decision when you have no ability to stop it. Providing a motive is not the same thing as being an accessory to anything. I can provide motive for someone to punch me just by being irritating, but it's up to the person how they handle it. And I might not even realize that I'm being irritating enough to warrant a punch, this person could just be sensitive or had a bad day. But that they do with their irritation is not my problem. Nor is it Edward or Bella's fault that Victoria killed people in her pursuit of vengeance.
Talk about a stretch, comparing irritating someone to murdering their husband...Maybe a re-read of Jaspers story is in order. He was quiet clear that this is the norm on how vamps society works...Not a stretch at all, just the way things are done in the vamp world, Like social norms. Are you saying Jasper story is off?
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opulent
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent »

The Dark Knight wrote:
By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
I thought we were talking about the legal system here. :o In the legal system, whether or not one feels one is owed revenge, if a person did not suggest that they commit murder or help in planning or executing it, then that person is not guilty. According to the law.

Now - I agree with you that Edward should have thought of the fact that vamps are oddly attached to vengeance. But Victoria made her own educated decision about her own actions. I think I have stated that. . .what, like ten times now? :roll:
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Asheleyo
Teaching Eric Social Graces
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Asheleyo »

The Dark Knight wrote:
Asheleyo wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
That's a stretch of the imagination if I ever heard one. That would never hold up in any court because you can't be held responsible for someone else's decision when you have no ability to stop it. Providing a motive is not the same thing as being an accessory to anything. I can provide motive for someone to punch me just by being irritating, but it's up to the person how they handle it. And I might not even realize that I'm being irritating enough to warrant a punch, this person could just be sensitive or had a bad day. But that they do with their irritation is not my problem. Nor is it Edward or Bella's fault that Victoria killed people in her pursuit of vengeance.
Talk about a stretch, comparing irritating someone to murdering their husband...Maybe a re-read of Jaspers story is in order. He was quiet clear that this is the norm on how vamps society works...Not a stretch at all, just the way things are done in the vamp world, Like social norms. Are you saying Jasper story is off?
Mine was an analogy, so no, not really a stretch, just a parallel situation when it comes to thinking about implications. And like opulent says above, we were talking about legal situations. I didn't say anything about Jasper's story, which was more about newborns than stuff to do with mates. Yes, vampire mates are very protective of each other and have extreme ideas of vengeance, so it seems. But that doesn't mean that it's right. And it wasn't murder. It was defense. James brought it upon himself. He thought it was a fun game and he deserved the consequence. Victoria helped out and never tried to stop James and never stepped up and said "hey, that's my lover, you bring my wrath on you if you touch him." All anyone knew was that they were in the same group. And you can't blame Edward for not "hearing" it because he can't hear everything. He's lucky enough just to have that ability.

But the point is, justice is not served by holding Edward or Bella responsible at all for the killings that Victoria brought about.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.

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