Edward and Bella 2

Character Discussion Forum

Moderators: December, Bronze Haired Girl, una

Forum rules
Character Discussion Forum

Click for Forum Rules
The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:13 am

Dovrebanen wrote:I strongly believe in personal accountability. But only when it is justified and directed at the right person. Like HOFJ...I hold Victoria and James accountable for what they did. Yo can't hold someone accountable for events that they had no control over.
The Dark Knight wrote: Very good question HOFJ. Here's what I would have done, I would have killed James & Victoria at the baseball game & decided after soem strong interagation whether Laurent woudl live or not...Quote from Tomb Stone, Dr Holiday, "Why put of killen someone today when your just going to have to kill him tomorrow?" Problem sovled
So that would make Edward a better man in your opinion? To kill people right there on the spot. From what he knew at the time, Victoria was innocent and didn't know what James had planned. And for all he knew, Laurent was the leader and could possibly stop James. It was all a charade of course. But Edward didn't know that. And he was way to focused on Bella to look into their minds. And who can blame him for that..

To kill them in the field would have been going against what the Cullens believed in. And of course Edward was more worried about getting Bella out of there than killing James on the spot. What would she do during a fight in the baseball field? Just stand there while no one watched over her, and so anyone could take a snap at her?
How could Edward even think about Victoria maybe seeking revenge for her lost lover, that Edward didn't even know she had? And that she would create an army? No..You just can't hold Edward personally accountable for that. Too many events and decisons made in between to make that his responsiblity.

I never said it would make him a better person, just stated what I would have done...you can judge me as you wish for my view...
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:22 am

Asheleyo wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
Asheleyo wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
That's a stretch of the imagination if I ever heard one. That would never hold up in any court because you can't be held responsible for someone else's decision when you have no ability to stop it. Providing a motive is not the same thing as being an accessory to anything. I can provide motive for someone to punch me just by being irritating, but it's up to the person how they handle it. And I might not even realize that I'm being irritating enough to warrant a punch, this person could just be sensitive or had a bad day. But that they do with their irritation is not my problem. Nor is it Edward or Bella's fault that Victoria killed people in her pursuit of vengeance.
Talk about a stretch, comparing irritating someone to murdering their husband...Maybe a re-read of Jaspers story is in order. He was quiet clear that this is the norm on how vamps society works...Not a stretch at all, just the way things are done in the vamp world, Like social norms. Are you saying Jasper story is off?
Mine was an analogy, so no, not really a stretch, just a parallel situation when it comes to thinking about implications. And like opulent says above, we were talking about legal situations. I didn't say anything about Jasper's story, which was more about newborns than stuff to do with mates. Yes, vampire mates are very protective of each other and have extreme ideas of vengeance, so it seems. But that doesn't mean that it's right. And it wasn't murder. It was defense. James brought it upon himself. He thought it was a fun game and he deserved the consequence. Victoria helped out and never tried to stop James and never stepped up and said "hey, that's my lover, you bring my wrath on you if you touch him." All anyone knew was that they were in the same group. And you can't blame Edward for not "hearing" it because he can't hear everything. He's lucky enough just to have that ability.

But the point is, justice is not served by holding Edward or Bella responsible at all for the killings that Victoria brought about.
Ok Legal system, We have a lot of concepts flying about here so forgive me if I miss which one we are speaking of. Ok, I agree in our western thinking legal system Edward would not be procecuted for the 30+ deaths but definately for James murder...cuts both ways...

James does pay the price for his hobby, maybe that's what he wanted all along...who knows what evil lurks in vampire minds...

I don't think your giving Edward enough credit. he is after all over a hundred years old...He should have know and I believe he did know, that's why he started tracking Victoria in the first place; albeit poorly.
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:24 am

opulent wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
By providing the motive, Killing her SO, which in the Vamp world is going to form a vendetta...Vamp traditions that SM herself talks about when Jasper tells his story, right?
I thought we were talking about the legal system here. :o In the legal system, whether or not one feels one is owed revenge, if a person did not suggest that they commit murder or help in planning or executing it, then that person is not guilty. According to the law.

Now - I agree with you that Edward should have thought of the fact that vamps are oddly attached to vengeance. But Victoria made her own educated decision about her own actions. I think I have stated that. . .what, like ten times now? :roll:

Nope, I'm still very fuzzy on your view point.... ;)
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

User avatar
Dovrebanen
Red-Eyed Vampire
Posts: 1890
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Norway.

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Dovrebanen » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:01 am

The Dark Knight wrote: Dovrebanen, I truly believe that you believe your view point regardless of Edward or not. Really I do. It's clear to me that it's part of your make up and who you are, please keep that part as it will serve you well to have such strong convictions. That does not mean I won't have a bit of fun with it now and then, ok all the time? :lol: You know the whole Edward fanatic stuff is tongue and cheek to me. The cool-aid, the love is blind and all the other fun quips...I hope they make you smile not grind your teeth.
It does make me smile :) Really, I have taken no offense to anything you've said. You bring on some healthy discussions.
The Dark Knight wrote:I never said it would make him a better person, just stated what I would have done...you can judge me as you wish for my view...
No, of course not. I was talking about Edward. When you are a killer by nature, and you've tried so hard not to be for years, killing James would not be helpful for Edward. He needed to focus on Bella. And remember when he killed Victoria in Eclipse? He was so scared of what Bella thought of him afterwards, even if he was doing it in a life threatening situation. Imagine how he would feel if he killed James in the field. And Victoria...Edward didn't know how close she was to James. To him they were just part of the same coven, and the bonds could be very week. No reason whatsoever to kill her.

About Jasper's story - No, it's not off. But it just doesn't apply in this case. Yes, vampires are prone to vengeance. Even James knew that Edward would avenge Bella if he killed her, and he wanted him too. I think it has to do with how deeply they feel everything. Love and loss. But that doesn't mean that everyone will behave like that. People still make individual choices. And again, Edward didn't know how close Victoria and James were.
Image
Rob's Halfway House ~ Team Edward ~ Cullenist ~

User avatar
moon sidhe
Helping Mike to Get a Clue
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:09 am
Contact:

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by moon sidhe » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:24 am

Dovrebanen wrote: No, of course not. I was talking about Edward. When you are a killer by nature, and you've tried so hard not to be for years, killing James would not be helpful for Edward. He needed to focus on Bella. And remember when he killed Victoria in Eclipse? He was so scared of what Bella thought of him afterwards, even if he was doing it in a life threatening situation. Imagine how he would feel if he killed James in the field. And Victoria...Edward didn't know how close she was to James. To him they were just part of the same coven, and the bonds could be very week. No reason whatsoever to kill her.
That's a really excellent point. About how tortured he felt about his more than a little shady past. He hated seeing himself as a killer. And he clearly wasn't eager to have all those he held most dear see him that way either, particularly Carlisle and Bella. I thought Edward was so focused on protecting Bella that he wasn't paying much attention to the thoughts of Victoria. I think this may have been brought up before? My books have been lent out (I'm not sure I'm going to be getting them back at this point :( ), so maybe someone else can confirm or correct me, but I think he was entirely focused on what James was thinking, to the exclusion of the others.

It is kind of an interesting head game though, to ask ourselves why the Cullens didn't just kill them while they could. I mean, they decidedly outnumbered them. But ultimately, it seems to go against everything they believe in, especially Carlisle. Carlisle is decidedly a do no harm, pacifist, always looking for the best in others kind of a person. I just can't see him ever allowing that scene to escalate to violence.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:50 am

moon sidhe wrote:
Dovrebanen wrote: No, of course not. I was talking about Edward. When you are a killer by nature, and you've tried so hard not to be for years, killing James would not be helpful for Edward. He needed to focus on Bella. And remember when he killed Victoria in Eclipse? He was so scared of what Bella thought of him afterwards, even if he was doing it in a life threatening situation. Imagine how he would feel if he killed James in the field. And Victoria...Edward didn't know how close she was to James. To him they were just part of the same coven, and the bonds could be very week. No reason whatsoever to kill her.
That's a really excellent point. About how tortured he felt about his more than a little shady past. He hated seeing himself as a killer. And he clearly wasn't eager to have all those he held most dear see him that way either, particularly Carlisle and Bella. I thought Edward was so focused on protecting Bella that he wasn't paying much attention to the thoughts of Victoria. I think this may have been brought up before? My books have been lent out (I'm not sure I'm going to be getting them back at this point :( ), so maybe someone else can confirm or correct me, but I think he was entirely focused on what James was thinking, to the exclusion of the others.

It is kind of an interesting head game though, to ask ourselves why the Cullens didn't just kill them while they could. I mean, they decidedly outnumbered them. But ultimately, it seems to go against everything they believe in, especially Carlisle. Carlisle is decidedly a do no harm, pacifist, always looking for the best in others kind of a person. I just can't see him ever allowing that scene to escalate to violence.
You are correct, Edward did not have time to read Victoria do to his need to read James mind...That in of itself set off James.

I am willing to agree that Carlisle is a "do no harm kind of guy" but I'm not entirely sure of that point...What we will see in Eclipes is if he participated in the killing of the Newbornes or not...This will be telling. Anyone else agree with that?

I have often wondered why james was allowed to leave with his plan so apparent to Edward...If that fight had happend we would have seen the relationships of the rouge pack...Liek I said before laurent would run, and jsut to clairfy, Victoria would jump in to save her man...It would be a fight of 5 of 2 (where have I hear that before). Anyway my quote still stands as a lesson learned...
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

User avatar
moon sidhe
Helping Mike to Get a Clue
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:09 am
Contact:

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by moon sidhe » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:04 am

The Dark Knight wrote:
I am willing to agree that Carlisle is a "do no harm kind of guy" but I'm not entirely sure of that point...What we will see in Eclipes is if he participated in the killing of the Newbornes or not...This will be telling. Anyone else agree with that?

I have often wondered why james was allowed to leave with his plan so apparent to Edward...If that fight had happend we would have seen the relationships of the rouge pack...Liek I said before laurent would run, and jsut to clairfy, Victoria would jump in to save her man...It would be a fight of 5 of 2 (where have I hear that before). Anyway my quote still stands as a lesson learned...
Well, I think Carlisle is "do no harm" to a point. I don't think it explicitly describes Carlisle fighting in Eclipse (sigh.. no book), but I feel fairly certain that he did. When his loved ones are faced with an imminent threat, I have no doubt that he will defend them. If that means he has to kill, then he will. But I think that a threat to his loved ones is about the only situation that would provoke him to hurting or killing another. Now why Edward still allowed James et al. to leave, knowing what he knew, is a good question. I suspect some of it boils down to Carlisle being the leader and being the ultimate decision maker. Carlisle didn't have Edward's knowledge at the time, and he was trying to diffuse a tense situation as quickly as possible. His main goal was to make sure that everyone left unharmed. I don't think that Edward could have communicated his knowledge to Carlisle without setting everything off. But I really don't know. I'm purely hypothesizing. Certainly that confrontation would have ended up being way more boring if the Cullens just up and killed the villains right then. So in terms of making the book more fun and suspenseful, I can see why it was written the way that it was.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:40 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
I am willing to agree that Carlisle is a "do no harm kind of guy" but I'm not entirely sure of that point...What we will see in Eclipes is if he participated in the killing of the Newbornes or not...This will be telling. Anyone else agree with that?

I have often wondered why james was allowed to leave with his plan so apparent to Edward...If that fight had happend we would have seen the relationships of the rouge pack...Liek I said before laurent would run, and jsut to clairfy, Victoria would jump in to save her man...It would be a fight of 5 of 2 (where have I hear that before). Anyway my quote still stands as a lesson learned...
Well, I think Carlisle is "do no harm" to a point. I don't think it explicitly describes Carlisle fighting in Eclipse (sigh.. no book), but I feel fairly certain that he did. When his loved ones are faced with an imminent threat, I have no doubt that he will defend them. If that means he has to kill, then he will. But I think that a threat to his loved ones is about the only situation that would provoke him to hurting or killing another. Now why Edward still allowed James et al. to leave, knowing what he knew, is a good question. I suspect some of it boils down to Carlisle being the leader and being the ultimate decision maker. Carlisle didn't have Edward's knowledge at the time, and he was trying to diffuse a tense situation as quickly as possible. His main goal was to make sure that everyone left unharmed. I don't think that Edward could have communicated his knowledge to Carlisle without setting everything off. But I really don't know. I'm purely hypothesizing. Certainly that confrontation would have ended up being way more boring if the Cullens just up and killed the villains right then. So in terms of making the book more fun and suspenseful, I can see why it was written the way that it was.

You are likely right, and the whole book this is right too. That's why we have fish tales, The one I let go was this big, <grin>.

here's another great quote for Count of Monte Cristo; "Why not just kill them. I’ll do it. I’ll run up to Paris, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam….I’m back by weeks end. Then we spend the treasure. How’s this a bad plan?" :lol:

Kind of reminds me of my wife's words when I'm fighting in tournament, "Don't play with your food dear."
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

opulent
Learning to Love Green
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 3:33 am
Location: Reading in Bed and listening to Vivaldi

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by opulent » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:33 pm

Okaaay. . .Anyone else here ready for a new discussion? Seriously, I think we have spent at least five or six pages on this one. . .DK has proven how irritating he is ;) :lol:

Anyone? Please? With a chocolate-covered cherry on top?
Image
"Plus que ma propre vie."

The Dark Knight
Touched By Cold Hands
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 am

Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:54 am

opulent wrote:Okaaay. . .Anyone else here ready for a new discussion? Seriously, I think we have spent at least five or six pages on this one. . .DK has proven how irritating he is ;) :lol:

Anyone? Please? With a chocolate-covered cherry on top?
Chocolate ants maybe but never the Cherry's. Oh, look the horse is not quiet dead, his hoof is twitching... :lol:
Image

"Peaces is not the absence of war, but the presence of justice."

Post Reply