Bella Swan Cullen #3

[moon sidhe]

I am not say she is bad at all but she is so inexperience with falling in love that I don't think she realized what she was really doing.

I think you said it all right there. I agree, she didn't realize what she was doing. She wasn't doing it with intention. And to me, intention is one of the defining characteristics of manipulation. You can't be manipulative if you don't actually know what you're doing. Otherwise it's just called being naive. I don't think anyone can argue that Bella wasn't naive and inexperienced. But manipulative? No. Not in my opinion, anyway.

[diane771]

By the time Eclispe comes she cant be that naive now can you? She is supposed to be so mature that she totally over looks what her actions are causing people she is suppose to care about. I give her a pass in Twilight and New Moon, But I really do not really like her too much in Eclipse. I only like her again in BD when she marries Edward. But This is just my opinion so naive, inexperience, manipulative I just didn't like that way she treated Edward and also Jacob in that book. But don't let me interfer in your opinions please.

[moon sidhe]

Why do you think she should be so much more mature and experienced in Eclipse? She's what... 17 at that point? I don't know how you were at 17, but I for one can say that I was quite naive and inexperienced at 17. And no matter what her age, Edward is her first real relationship. And she's trying to navigate it to the best of her ability. Whether you're 16 for your first real relationship or 23, that doesn't change the fact that you're trying to navigate the same murky waters. Everyone is going to make mistakes. Personally, I try to be a tad understanding of that.

[holdingoutforjacob]

I have a question for you all. Does it count as being manipulative if you're unaware you're doing it??

I fault Bella for a lot of things in the books, in her treatment of the boys, especially Jacob, and I see how she was awful to Edward too. But I don't see her as manipulating them.

You bring up a good point, moon sidhe, that Bella is young. Bella is 17. But she knows how to treat people. Bella doesn't learn from her mistakes in her treatment of people. Bella is very self-centered in Eclipse. She has a lot of power over these two boys, and while she may not realize her dominance in her relationship with Edward, she certainly realizes it in her relationship with Jacob. While it's not like she uses that to gain an unfair advantage, it's also not like she tries not to abuse it, or tries to uphold the responsibility that comes with being the one who calls the shots.

[moon sidhe]

Well, I suppose I already said, that in my mind the key ingredient in manipulation is intention. If you there's no intent to influence another's actions, it's not manipulation in my book.

I said this to Diane elsewhere, but I don't see Bella's actions as self-centered in Eclipse necessarily. Just as confused. She has these two amazing people vying for her attentions, and she doesn't know what to do about it. I think she knows at that time that she loves Edward, and only wants to be with him. And she knows that she loves Jacob, but only as a friend. I think ultimately she's driven by her severe aversion to hurting anyone. She hates the idea that by telling Jacob she could never be anything more than a friend, that she'd be hurting him immensely. So she doesn't tell him. And yeah, this is wrong. It's the wrong choice. She doesn't understand that by not telling him, she's stringing both Jacob and Edward along and hurting both of them in the process. I think she really wanted everyone to be happy, but just didn't know how to go about doing it.

And also... if Bella had properly handled it from the beginning there wouldn't be any tension as the reader. In terms of adding more intrigue to the story, it was effective, and dare I say it, more fun. For me anyway, I enjoyed seeing Edward and Jacob duke it out. It just kind of had this old fashioned "two gentleman fighting for the love of the lady" feel to it.

[eclipse79]

Bella is manipulating Edward and Jacob?
Umm...the only person who was at all trying to change or manipulate the situation is Jacob.
Remember when Bella and him were talking and then Jacob started staring at her, almost, like glaring at her? Well I remember reading Stephanie say somewhere that he was trying to IMPRINT on her.
Well, seeing as no imprintEE has ever rejected the imprintER, I'm guessing the imprinting has an effect on both people involved. Basically, Jacob thought she would choose him if he imprinted on her. Of coarse, he was also trying to imprint on her because he didn't think he could love anyone else, and he was probably getting tired of seeing everybody else in the pack imprint, but still, you have to think manipulation was slightly involved.
At one point in New Moon, I do remember Bella making it pretty open that she was only interested in friendship with Jacob. He was still pulled to her, probably because "fate" wanted to keep Jacob nearby so he could eventually imprint on Renesmee.

Bella couldn't hurt Jacob by rejecting him completely because he had been there for her when she was feeling so empty and hurt. He filled the hole that Edward left!

[diane771]

I totally agree with you Eclipse79, maybe I am useing the wrong word, but I really didn't like Bella in Eclipse and thought she treated Edward very bad, and would not let go of Jacob. So manipulative is the word I used. can you think of another one that would fit her better. I liked her in all the books except Eclipse and I liked her again in BD so its just the way she was dealing with people's emotions that was not right at all. But this is just my opinion.

[Esme echo]

I don't like using a single word to define someone (speaking as if Bella were a real person ) but if I had to use just one word to describe Bella in Eclipse I would say desperate, or maybe fearful.

Desperate to be loyal to Jacob--who absolutely deserved loyalty--and maintain some sort of relationship with him in spite of Edward's overwhelming fears.

Desperate to protect her family(ies) from harm when the newborn army arrives.

Desperate to become a vampire and assure herself a place at Edward's side for eternity.

Fearful that Edward didn't like her enough to want her around that long.

Fear of getting markedly older than Edward.

Fear that she was ruining Jacob's chances of a happy-ever-after.

Fear of never being enough, unable to keep the most important men in her life happy.

Fear that she was really a bad person, and didn't deserve to be happy.

[holdingoutforjacob]

Really? I don't see that desperation to be good to anyone in her. I see desperation to protect everyone from the newborns. But certainly not to make sure she didn't hurt anyone.

The thing about Bella is she's halfway there. She realizes that Jacob doesn't deserve to be left out in the cold. She realizes that she hurts people with her actions. What she doesn't realize, or care about, is how much influence she has over people. And when I say that, I mean how much the littler things she says and does hurt people, and how much pain she could take away if she were simply a little understanding.

Bella is quick to forgive, sometimes too quick to forgive. But Bella's type of forgiveness (we'll just pretend that didn't happen) is completely non-constructive. By just forgetting things, and expecting others to do the same for her, there's never any resolution, and therefore nothing to say it won't happen again.

[diane771]

Desperate to protect her family(ies) from harm when the newborn army arrives.
Bella was human she could do nothing and she needed more faith in Edward, the Cullens, Jacob and the wolves

Desperate to become a vampire and assure herself a place at Edward's side for eternity.
Is she that insecure of Edward. Edward in Eclispe does nothing to make her feel that way. In fact Edward loves her so much that he doesn't want Bella to become a vampire. not for any other reason but love.

Fearful that Edward didn't like her enough to want her around that long.
Didn't like her, Edward loved her Adored her, Bella was his life, he was willing to be with her til her human life ended, or if she picked Jacob he only wanted her to be happy. Why was she so fearfull it if she is it comes from her and her insecurities and not from Edward

Fear of getting markedly older than Edward.
Thats just not realistic in my opinion if she opened her eyes and saw how much Edward loved her. Again this goes to Bella's insecurities.
Fear that she was ruining Jacob's chances of a happy-ever-after.
She should have been more afraid and maybe she would have seen how much he wanted her and how the 3 of them someone was bound to get hurt and it wasn't going to be Bella


Fear of never being enough, unable to keep the most important men in her life happy
Fear that she was really a bad person, and didn't deserve to be happy.
Honestly if she is so fearfull why does she leave her house and I am not trying to be nasty here but I would think that at the age of 17 she would be more mature than what you are saying. The fear and desperation is something you might see in an 8yr when the parents divource or something tragic like that, But Bella was a smart girl and you are making her out to be this person that has all these problems and I don't see here like that. I think she was well aware of some of the bad things she did and she just didn't care she did what she wanted to do. The Bella above is a weak person and I just don't see her that way, And that is just my opinion, if you haven't learned anything by 17 then you are going to be in big trouble. Boys fight for our country at 18 so I feel that Bella should take more responsablity in her actions. Thats all.