Bella Swan Cullen #3

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diane771
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by diane771 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:58 am

Having 2 guys interested in you is unusual DK ? :?
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:08 am

diane771 wrote:Having 2 guys interested in you is unusual DK ? :?
What ever...If that was the case then there would not be any of that low self esteem...I just don't get low esteem...no one is perfect so we are all in the same boat...
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by diane771 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:13 am

Well its the other poster who says low self esteem. who knows what goes on in the mind of the quiet ones.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:22 am

diane771 wrote:Well its the other poster who says low self esteem. who knows what goes on in the mind of the quiet ones.

Well we know Bella has low self esteem...as for the quiet ones...Yah they are a lot of fun...the rest can't be said on the lex,,,baking and snorkling and unicorn's oh my...
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Angelvamp » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:03 am

The Dark Knight wrote:What ever...If that was the case then there would not be any of that low self esteem...I just don't get low esteem...no one is perfect so we are all in the same boat...
IMO, it takes a special person to be able to discount all the media surrounding the popular idea of beauty, especially when girls are bombarded with the same messages their entire lives. And that's not even counting how girls are cruel to each other and how vicious they can be when trying to establish position within their social groups. Sometimes it takes years for a woman to become comfortable in her own skin. It doesn't seem to me that boys have the same difficulties. Different ones, maybe. But in general, do boys have comparible self esteem problems? I don't see it, but I could have tunnel vision. ;)

Anyway, in Bella's case, I do think she is one of those special cases. I think her self esteem issues really only come out when comparing herself to Edward. I don't think she really thought about it before he came into her life. To her, he is perfect, and she feels an overwhelming saddness all the time when she compares herself to him (the meadow scene, the motorcycles, etc.) because she doesn't think she can hold her own.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:21 am

Angelvamp wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:What ever...If that was the case then there would not be any of that low self esteem...I just don't get low esteem...no one is perfect so we are all in the same boat...
IMO, it takes a special person to be able to discount all the media surrounding the popular idea of beauty, especially when girls are bombarded with the same messages their entire lives. And that's not even counting how girls are cruel to each other and how vicious they can be when trying to establish position within their social groups. Sometimes it takes years for a woman to become comfortable in her own skin. It doesn't seem to me that boys have the same difficulties. Different ones, maybe. But in general, do boys have comparible self esteem problems? I don't see it, but I could have tunnel vision. ;)

Anyway, in Bella's case, I do think she is one of those special cases. I think her self esteem issues really only come out when comparing herself to Edward. I don't think she really thought about it before he came into her life. To her, he is perfect, and she feels an overwhelming saddness all the time when she compares herself to him (the meadow scene, the motorcycles, etc.) because she doesn't think she can hold her own.
We have pecking order in a dominate social structure that is re-enforced by fear and intimidation. Similar but different. We have a more primal way of working things out, not the destroy each others mental state that goes on in the female side. yep, I talking about fighting. It seems to me that although it's more viloent in nature it clears the air and normality is achieved quickly again. What I have witnesses in the fairer sex, it can go on for a long time with cruelty and harsh words as weapons. To me the male version just seems more humane... :D

I'm not sure Bella is not affected by the real of chaos of the drama in the Female lifes struggels. She make several reference of self esteen hits, Like when she spoke of the Barbie Dolls of Scottsdale and her description of Rosalie. She even talks a little about the girls in Forks but that is only a foot note. So she may not be immune to all drama... Sorry ladies, I like the male version much better.

On a side note, most men only have a partial issuewith self esteem. The Media is trying it's best to establish itself in the male need to look a certain way but it's not by and large taking hold. I think it has to do with we just don't care as much about of physical appearence as much as women and our method is primal not social in nature...
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Angelvamp » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:05 am

I'm definitely with you on that one, Dark Knight, the male version is more humane. Sticks and stones, hah! Whatever! :) And it seems to me that physical beauty is not the most desirable trait for men within society. Ugly guys can still be successful in society (a couple hundred come to mind, throughout history) but how many ugly women can do the same? Men are ranked on a different scale, their individual achievements are valued more highly than their appearance. Not so with women, generally speaking. :(

Although Bella makes references to Rosalie's beauty and how she can't compare, I think the main hit to her self esteem is Edward and not another girl or the trappings of society's imagery. I really don't blame her much - he's gorgeous, super strong, incredibly intelligent, talented and has an photographic memory. To be completely honest, if I were in her place I think my self esteem would take a hit too, no matter how comfortable I am with myself.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by una » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:25 pm

I see Bella's self-esteem as her connection to Edward. If she "looks" right with him it would help to cement their relationship, it proves she belongs with him. But considering how physically weak/fragile she is with him and if she doesn't look right with him, how can she possibly hold on to him? How can they be equals in the relationship - these thoughts plague her...it's a little more than just the vanity aspect of self-esteem...it's insecurity in the relationship. It makes her feel that they have no equal footing and therefore how can they have a permanent relationship.

I agree with the male dominance resolution. Especially considering after the fight, men will bond and be friends because they have established the pecking order (usually). With females, the loser is just usually ostracized, and sometimes by more than just the group she had been within...

Look at what happened to Bella after the disastrous movie with Jessica...ONLY Angela seemed to try to keep ties with her out of the WHOLE school!
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:43 pm

una wrote:I see Bella's self-esteem as her connection to Edward. If she "looks" right with him it would help to cement their relationship, it proves she belongs with him. But considering how physically weak/fragile she is with him and if she doesn't look right with him, how can she possibly hold on to him? How can they be equals in the relationship - these thoughts plague her...it's a little more than just the vanity aspect of self-esteem...it's insecurity in the relationship. It makes her feel that they have no equal footing and therefore how can they have a permanent relationship.

I agree with the male dominance resolution. Especially considering after the fight, men will bond and be friends because they have established the pecking order (usually). With females, the loser is just usually ostracized, and sometimes by more than just the group she had been within...

Look at what happened to Bella after the disastrous movie with Jessica...ONLY Angela seemed to try to keep ties with her out of the WHOLE school!

This thread is very interesting to me. Great insight into a world I only get to see glimpses of before that door is shut...Less the boys fined out what's going on behind door #1... :oops: ...I agree Bella is outstead and pretty much left to fend for herself. I know my group of guys growing up always helped those girls recover from that. Thinking back that had two effects that made things better, the young lady recovered faster because she found acceptance from the boys which eventually got them back in with one of the pack of girls, we boys got dates (not a bad side effect) and our general reps stayed rather high given all things...

In no way can I bost to understand the womens view so I can only comment on what I see, what little we are allowed to see. The self esteem thing is garbbage and a way to create control without having to get ones hands dirty. Yah, we all want to look our best but youth is fleeting, so it's more important to be happy with who you are more than being a super model. In truth most men prefer girls next door over super models...yah I know that not told to you all but it is very very true. So please spread the word...

Una you speak of "equals in the relationship." This s a foreign concept o most men. I have made this a topic of discussion before and for the most part we jsut don't get it. Yes, the male ego does not get the desire of women wanting to be "equals in the relationship." The conclusion of the discussion that we had a few months ago (not on the lex) was complimenting each other was far more important that equals. It was further determined that in every relationship we examined we found that equality was never achieved and the pursuit of it was often determental to the relationship. Thus complementary to each other was far more desireable...any thoughts?
these thoughts plague her...it's a little more than just the vanity aspect of self-esteem...it's insecurity in the relationship. It makes her feel that they have no equal footing and therefore how can they have a permanent relationship.
Can you help me understand better what you mean here? I think I get the surface of what you are saying but i still feel i'm missing the underlying concepts that are harder to reach...
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by una » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:47 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:Una you speak of "equals in the relationship." This s a foreign concept o most men. I have made this a topic of discussion before and for the most part we jsut don't get it. Yes, the male ego does not get the desire of women wanting to be "equals in the relationship." The conclusion of the discussion that we had a few months ago (not on the lex) was complimenting each other was far more important that equals. It was further determined that in every relationship we examined we found that equality was never achieved and the pursuit of it was often determental to the relationship. Thus complementary to each other was far more desireable...any thoughts?
Equals as in partners, that both parties have an equal footing in the decisions made. No one party can force their will upon the other (unless of course the other party allows it). What you say by being compliments is true and equality is a part of that. One party makes up for the weakness in the other and vice versa. For example: "Bill is a fantastic cook, so he does all the cooking and grocery shopping while Bobby is a neat organizational freak so she keeps the house clean and organized." Who would you say is in charge of the house? My response would be neither, they balance each other and therefore are co-in-charge. Deferring to the one with more experience, BUT discussing the issues that arise together, I'm sure Bill asks what she is interested in dinner as well as I'm sure Bobbie asks Bill how he wants the kitchen organized. One person just doesn't make all the decisions, they are a team. Compliments - yes, but also equal in the relationship. This make more sense?
The Dark Knight wrote:Can you help me understand better what you mean here? I think I get the surface of what you are saying but i still feel i'm missing the underlying concepts that are harder to reach...


What I was referring to is that self-esteem can be more than just one's lack of opinion in one's personal appearance. Self-esteem is (in my opinion) a lack of believe in oneself. So with Bella it is not just her appearance that she feels she may fall flat in (which I agree is only in regards to her connection to Edward) but also her clumsiness is a source of negative impact on her self-esteem. This make more sense?
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