Bella Swan Cullen #3

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The Dark Knight
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight »

Couple of things

Welcome back Knives, need a couple of anti's...well I'm the local anti-edward...

Una, education is never a waste. The characters do have a tendancy of bringing up thoughts that go down rabbit wholes...

Do any of you think Bella is one of these girls that prefer the company of men to women? why?

Bella is naivete in just about everything. She blunders her way through things that show wise her up but she fails to get the lesson most of the time...I think that's why Knives see' her as an idiot. For me, she may be a intellegent book wise girl but clearly she has no street wise wisdom. Her story is a cross from Little Red Ridinghood and Persephanie and Hades. I still maintain this is either a Greek tragedy or at least a cautionary tail...
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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob »

Knives wrote:Not...quite. I hate to go into semantics (it's annoying for everyone involved), but I think it's necessary:

Characterization is what a character does and why - their portrayal as a sentient (or at least anthromorphized) being. For example, Disney's Robin Hood is characterized as a dashing scoundrel with a soft spot for the poor. Where authors run into problems is when they tell the readers one thing, but then the character does another; in essence, creating a characterization conflict. Imagine if, before you saw him in the film, someone said that Disney's Robin Hood was a dashing scoundrel - and then the first time you see the man act, he's stabbing a puppy. That is not a dashing scoundrel. That is, at best, someone with severe anger issues. So, my problem is that, while Bella is clearly characterized as either A. an idiot, B. suicidal, C. co-dependant or D. all of the above (depending on your interpretations of various actions), Ms. Meyer tells us that she is intelligent, clever, strong, and independant. As much as anti-fans and sane, responsible fans of the series (such as many of the fine folks on this site) may shake their head at it and wish otherwise, there are thousands of young women who look to this series and see role models, and that kind of inconsistency leads to very bad places, very quickly.
Mmm, maybe not necessary, I clearly was saying the same thing as you, just switched a term, that's all! I maintain that my idea was there.

You're right. But, keep in mind, SM wrote these books to tell a story, not to send a message. These are works of purest fiction. Granted, the events in them bring up issues relevant to our lives, etc. because it is realistic fiction, but these weren't written to be To Kill a Mockingbird.
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Esme echo
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Esme echo »

Well, Knives, one can idolize or demonize Bella's character equally easily from the evidence in the books. Personally, I don't recall all these accolades you accuse SM of lavishing on Bella. Bella describes herself as very average. In general, she is a good student; but that has little to do with common sense--which I think is what you think she is sorely lacking. She describes her looks as average. I agree with those who feel Bella is a little naive. Edward's opinion of Bella was not exactly dispassionate so any of his statements could be written off as glamour. She does dumb, impulsive, and ill-considered things at times, but I'm not sure I haven't met a teenager who hasn't.

As I'm sure I mentioned to you before, I would hope the parents of those thousands of girls who regard Bella as a role model would have a serious and continuing dialogue with their daughter(s) about fiction vs. reality and real life values.

Dark Knight, I don't think Bella liked to hang out with boys more than girls. Look at her actions. She plotted from the very beginning to lose Michael and Erik, wondering how she was going to get rid of them politely. She sat with Jessica and her friends at lunch, not Michael or Eric--either one of which would have welcomed her with joy.
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
The Dark Knight
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight »

Esme echo wrote:Dark Knight, I don't think Bella liked to hang out with boys more than girls. Look at her actions. She plotted from the very beginning to lose Michael and Erik, wondering how she was going to get rid of them politely. She sat with Jessica and her friends at lunch, not Michael or Eric--either one of which would have welcomed her with joy.
What about Edward and Jacob? she spends most of her life in Forks with them...not Angela nor Jessica.
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bac
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by bac »

I wouldn't want to hang out with Jessica either. She was 2 faced and not a loyal friend. I think Bella may have hung out with Angela more had she not had Edward and Jacob. I love the scene where Angela and Bella work on graduation announcements. For me, Bella has mostly been a loner, it isn't that she chooses boys over girls, she just doesn't have a lot of friends. We don't "hear" her talk about friends from Phoenix, only her mother. So I think it just happens that she finds soul mates in Edward and Jacob, not that she prefers boys over girls.
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Esme echo
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Esme echo »

I agree with you, bac. Bella wasn't the kind of young lady who needed/wanted girlie time or constant male company (until Edward decided to start talking to her again). She preferred to live under the radar of public attention, wasn't a joiner, and was embarrassed by Michael and Eric's attentions. After she woke up from her emotional breakdown, Jacob was an emotionally safe, non-demanding person who--surprise of surprises--turned out to be the perfect person to help her pull herself back together.
"Where there is great love, there are always miracles."
Knives
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Knives »

Esme echo wrote:Well, Knives, one can idolize or demonize Bella's character equally easily from the evidence in the books. Personally, I don't recall all these accolades you accuse SM of lavishing on Bella. Bella describes herself as very average. In general, she is a good student; but that has little to do with common sense--which I think is what you think she is sorely lacking. She describes her looks as average. I agree with those who feel Bella is a little naive. Edward's opinion of Bella was not exactly dispassionate so any of his statements could be written off as glamour. She does dumb, impulsive, and ill-considered things at times, but I'm not sure I haven't met a teenager who hasn't.
Yes, Bella describes herself as average, but we've already well-established that Bella has self-esteem issues. Every other character in the book (with the infrequent exception of some of those trying to kill her) describes her as beautiful, intelligent, special, et cetera, et cetera. Are you familiar with the concept of the Unreliable Narrator? Bella's narration, while the only PoV we have to go on, is neither omniscient nor unbiased, and it falls upon the reader to also look at other characters' interactions with her as well as to analyze the reasons behind her actions in order to get a better perspective. For other examples of Unreliable Narrators, I highly reccomend The Catcher in the Rye (by William Faulkner), I, Lucifer (by Glen Duncan), and the extremely trippy House of Leaves (by Mark Z. Danielewski. Be warned - this book will ravage your mind, and it won't even buy you a drink first).

Also, if Bella was average, would every male being in her school have been hitting on her?
esme echo wrote:As I'm sure I mentioned to you before, I would hope the parents of those thousands of girls who regard Bella as a role model would have a serious and continuing dialogue with their daughter(s) about fiction vs. reality and real life values.
You know, I would hope that too. Unfortunately, having paid attention to the media reports and certain other websites (such as Twimoms), I'm finding myself increasingly disheartened. Did you know that at one event - a book signing, if my memory serves - a thirty year old woman and her nine year old daughters approached Robert Patterson with fresh, bleeding gouges in their necks. When they got his autograph, the mother whispered to him, "We did this for you, Edward." Events like this, which have been pointedly ignored by both Ms. Meyer and her publishing company, are what seriously bother me. No, Stephenie did not intend these things to happen, but she caused them anyway and it should be her responsibility to, at the very least, speak out against this kind of self-destructive and irrational behavior.
The Dark Knight wrote:Bella is naivete in just about everything. She blunders her way through things that show wise her up but she fails to get the lesson most of the time...I think that's why Knives see' her as an idiot. For me, she may be a intellegent book wise girl but clearly she has no street wise wisdom. Her story is a cross from Little Red Ridinghood and Persephanie and Hades. I still maintain this is either a Greek tragedy or at least a cautionary tail
I wouldn't call her book smart either. Reading changes people; books you love, or that had significant impact upon you, affect your everyday life. You make little allusions to them. You quote them without realizing it. You find yourself comparing real-life events to those of the book (and usually laughing out loud, because it's usually hilarious). Bella does none of these things, and, in fact, shows little evidence of doing any reading outside of her school assignments - and what reading she does manage to do, she completely misses the point. Go ahead and read Wuthering Heights and tell me it's about anything - anything at all - but an abusive relationship between a sadist and a co-dependant. For that matter, Romeo and Juliet is about the stupidities of teen love, and the pointless extremes that its passions take people to. Don't believe me? Consider that none of it would have happened if either Romeo or Juliet had stopped to think for five minutes.
holdingoutforjacob wrote:You're right. But, keep in mind, SM wrote these books to tell a story, not to send a message. These are works of purest fiction. Granted, the events in them bring up issues relevant to our lives, etc. because it is realistic fiction, but these weren't written to be To Kill a Mockingbird.
And her intentions are factored in to my consideration of Ms. Meyer. However, the fan base and sub-culture around the books has evolved to the point where that intention no longer matters; just as if my intended campfire causes an acre of forest to burn to the ground, Ms. Meyer is now responsible to her fan base, some of whom quite literally worship her (the more unstable sects of Cullenism, as opposed to the much saner Tongue-in-Cheek faction).

One nitpick: realistic fiction is a genre, meaning fiction that takes place on earth, involving no fantastic elements. Examples include, appropriately enough, To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye, The Client, et cetera. Ms. Meyer has written a Horror Romance. Understand that the term is technical; Twilight is about as scary as a Care Bear. However, with the vampires/werewolves/miscellanious others being involved, it gets slotted into the Horror genre. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

For my stance - and several excellent arguments - on "realistic" as in, "Internal Setting Consistency," see Arzim's Rebuttals, but especially Article 2 ("Fantasy Does Not Excuse Lack of Realism"), Article 9 ("Science: Why Nessie Can't Exist") and Article 10 ("Science: Meyer Fails At It"). While the articles do possess a generally annoyed, snarky tone, Arzim has both done her research and read the entire series, and I highly reccomend reading them with an open mind - after all, Arzim has given both the Twilight fanbase and the series itself the same courtesy.
Openhome wrote:Knives, I believe that..
wait for it...
you are right.
Amanda Beth
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Amanda Beth »

This was written to be a preteen/teen book so I think we need to stop comparing it to the classics.

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Last edited by Amanda Beth on Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Dark Knight
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by The Dark Knight »

The Dark Knight wrote:
Bella is naivete in just about everything. She blunders her way through things that show wise her up but she fails to get the lesson most of the time...I think that's why Knives see' her as an idiot. For me, she may be a intellegent book wise girl but clearly she has no street wise wisdom. Her story is a cross from Little Red Ridinghood and Persephanie and Hades. I still maintain this is either a Greek tragedy or at least a cautionary tail
I wouldn't call her book smart either. Reading changes people; books you love, or that had significant impact upon you, affect your everyday life. You make little allusions to them. You quote them without realizing it. You find yourself comparing real-life events to those of the book (and usually laughing out loud, because it's usually hilarious). Bella does none of these things, and, in fact, shows little evidence of doing any reading outside of her school assignments - and what reading she does manage to do, she completely misses the point. Go ahead and read Wuthering Heights and tell me it's about anything - anything at all - but an abusive relationship between a sadist and a co-dependant. For that matter, Romeo and Juliet is about the stupidities of teen love, and the pointless extremes that its passions take people to. Don't believe me? Consider that none of it would have happened if either Romeo or Juliet had stopped to think for five minutes.
Well knives you are welcome to your view. Anyone who bothers to read Wuthering Heights and Romeo and Juliet are on the path of book smarts, reading the classics do that for anyone. Don't forget Merchant in Venise. I'll give you that each book you read you get somehting out of it. Just in the fact that one should be able to relate to the world better. Your assesment of the over view of both books is spot on, and if we take them as the inspiration of these books like SM says they are we should not be surprised that we are looking at Greek trajedies. That's what we have here...
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moon sidhe
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by moon sidhe »

Amanda Beth wrote:This was written to be a preteen/teen book so I think we need to stop comparing it to the classics.

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Agreed 100%. Can't say I really care whether or not Bella is capable of quoting the classics.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
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