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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:35 pm
by SenorGimp
Okay, here's something to think about...
I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before, but I don't recall there being a whole lot of feedback or adequate responses to it then, so I am rekindling the subject now...
What if Bella had actually bitten Jacob when she attacked him subsequent to learning he'd imprinted on Renesmee?
Now this would go quite a bit farther than just killing Jacob, obviously...
I could most certainly elaborate on the ramifications this would have had, but I would be thrilled to hear what you all have to say, what insights you can provide, on this subject...
Think hard, it goes SOOOOOOOOOO far!!

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:17 pm
by Amanda Beth
I'm confused. What ramifications? It doesn't sound like the imprintee is affected like the imprinter is, if that's what you mean. It would destroy Jacob is Nessie died, but I don't believe it goes both ways. When Bella asks Jacob when he's explaining imprinting to her "so she didn't have a choice?" he said she has no reason to want anyone else. It's not an automatic thing for the humans, like how Emily resisted Sam at first. Renesmee would grow up without Jacob and although the guilt Bella may have had would be enormous, I don't think there would be any problems with her daughter.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:04 am
by Esme echo
SenorGimp: Bitten, as in killed Jacob in a newborn rage?

Well, I'm not sure Nessie would still be special to the werewolves if Jacob were dead, so it's possible Sam's and Jacob's packs would combine and declare war on the vampires. And what would Jacob's death have done to Seth? He really loved Jacob. Leah would definately flip!

As soon as Bella calmed down, she'd be horrified and sickened that she had killed Jacob . . . maybe even to the extent of causing a permanent emotional change in herself . . . as strong emotion does cause permanent change in vampires.

Renesmee is enough like her mother that I suspect losing Jacob would leave an gaping hole in her chest, too. The knowledge that her mother was responsible for the loss of her soulmate would make a difference in their relationship, but I don't know enough about Renesmee to predict the depth of that change.

Edward might have been irritated that Jacob was a permanent part of their lives now, but I don't believe he would have had any feeling beyond extreme remorse if Jacob had been killed. He owed Jacob A LOT, and he was genuinely grateful for all that Jacob had done for his family--immediate and extended. Edward might have wished Jacob would go away, but he would never wish harm to befall him (IMO). . . .Well, maybe a drubbing, but not any lasting damage or death!

Billy & Sue -- As "elders" of the tribe, I can only imagine their grief and rage would mirror the werewolves', and the two groups would feed off each other in their determination to erradicate the vampires. None of them were so fond of Bella that they wouldn't kill her without compuncion. Except Seth. That poor kid would have been tortured two ways: the loss of Jacob, and the loss of the Cullens. The sting of double betrayal.

The appeal of the Twilight Saga: I have really enjoyed reading what Jazz Girl, Asheleyo and others have said about this; you are all so very articulate and thoughtful! I have contemplated my own obsession with Twilight . As an older fan, I don't really fit the profile of most of Stephenie's fans. I've come to the realization that a lot of Twilight's appeal for me is in the solid safety of Bella's and Edward's relationship, the eternal nature of their love.

Even in New Moon when Bella sincerely thought Edward had tired of her, we knew that he had not. We knew in the end they would be together--forever. I enjoy that sort of relationship now, and nothing pleases me more than to see the same kind of love, emotional safety, and permanence in other relationships. All the agony of middle and/or high school and/or YA emotional rollercoaster rides is over. Here are two people irrevocably dedicated to the happiness of their partner (well, Bella had to grow a bit there!). The faith that everything will eventually work out; the emotional safety of two committed, loving partners; the imagination and skilled characterization--it all adds up to a compelling and satisfying read! One I never want to end!

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:26 pm
by SenorGimp
Esme Echo:
You covered most of the bases, well done.
I just like to hear other people articulate their thoughts on subjects which I have pondered so deeply on.
Amanda Beth:
Well perhaps not in the conventional sense, but that's like saying that Bella would be fine if Edward dies, because she "Doesn't love with the passion of vampires."
I do understand your point, but I was really alluding to the quite larger picture, of which Esme Echo soundly portrayed, in eloquent prose.

Anyone got anything they want ME to expound upon?
It's been a long time since I've given one of my "verbose diatribes" on a Bella-related topic, although if you check the first installation of this thread, you'll see tons of me!
Let me know.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:53 pm
by Esme echo
Okay, SenorGimp: Why is it that Stephenie gets dumped on so thoroughly for giving Bella every single thing she wanted at the end of Breaking Dawn ("and she didn't have to suffer for it or to lose anything!"), yet no one ever makes the same fuss concerning Edward, who got "every single thing [he] want[ed], plus all the things [he] didn’t think to ask for"? He gets a total bye! Is it because girls expect more from their female characters than their male characters? Is there still some archaic perception or foregone conclusion that the guy will get his girl, so no need to make a scene?

(BTW, I'm one of those people who is totally happy with the ending of the series . . . except that it ended!)

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:26 am
by holdingoutforjacob
Wow. Is that question solely for him or can I go for it?? Cuz it's fascinating. I think I'll just go for it.

I think that the thing is that I don't feel like Bella fought for much. I don't feel like Bella was a particularly strong person in MOST parts of the series. I feel like Bella was lucky enough to be surrounded by very very strong people, and manipulative enough to pick the right one at the right time (Jacob, Edward, Rosalie, Alice). But when people talk about her having "the strength to fight for her right to love" I'm sorry but I just don't see anyone ever questioning her right to be in love with Edward, or to be with Edward. Both of their lives were threatened several times, but in all those times she had people to protect her. I think Bella justified and rationalized like crazy for the way she hurt people. Sometimes it was necessary, but even when she owns up to it she does it with such self-pity that it almost doesn't count. She plays the martyr so people will tell her it's okay and she doesn't have to ever accept real responsibility for her actions. She hurts people and there's never any sort of consequence for it. So why on earth does she deserve such a lovely ending?? She not only gets the man she loves, she gets a baby she shouldn't have been able to have, that Rosalie would kill (literally) to have. She gets to keep the other man she loves in her life, permanently, even though by all rights she only was interested in him when she needed him or to assuage her own guilt and his emotions and feelings were always secondary to her own and he should have left her a long time ago. And on top of all that, she doesn't even have to deal with being a newborn.

A big part of it, also, is that it's just so forced. The ending, I mean.

Excuse this great big rant. It's late, and I'm not particularly articulate right now, and I've never even really been able to figure out why I can't stand Bella, much less explain it late at night.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:22 pm
by Esme echo
Come back, holdingoutforjacob, and explain why Edward is not treated with the same dissatisfaction! I would rather not move this to the Edward or Edward and Bella threads, but I will if ya'll would like me to.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:08 pm
by holdingoutforjacob
Okay, I'm back. Sorry, I guess I just explained why I was dis-satisfied with Bella.

I guess because Edward's suffering is more out of his strength than his weaknesses. I do feel that Edward deserves this ending because he has been (almost) nothing but selfless the entire time. Also because he didn't even want this. I mean, obviously he did, but he didn't push for her to give up her humanity - in fact, he pushed against it. Changing her was going to cause him eternal guilt. You know, the whole good things happening to people who don't ask for them? Edward never asked for any of this. Bella clawed and manipulated and begged and pushed her way into it.

There's also the simple fact that Edward went through the entire series just trying to do the right thing and keep Bella safe, even when he was making his biggest mistakes. Bella went through the entire series trying to figure out exactly how to get what she wanted. Edward's love for Bella makes him a better person. I'm not sure we can say the same of her.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:11 pm
by Esme echo
Well, you're begining to convert me, holdingoutforjacob; I'm starting to see Bella more clearly from your point of view! I'm not totally on board with you; however, going through New Moon with a fine tooth comb for the last several months has underlined to me Bella's self-interested behavior and her willingness to use other people for her own benefit. I remain a hold-out on across the board condemnation, however, because Bella was an emotional train wreck doing whatever she could to hang on to at least half her sanity. She used people in the process. If someone were using me the way Bella used Jacob--for the same reasons--I hope I'd be quick to forgive.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:32 pm
by holdingoutforjacob
I don't have a problem with her "using" Jacob in New Moon. I don't even really see that so much as using. It's when she continues to do so that it bothers me. It's the way she treats him when Edward returns.