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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:15 am
by Jazz Girl
My point in posting what I did was to avoid the inevitable conflict that arises from people posting their impressions as inarguable fact. I had an entire post written responding to the discussion and then realized that it would only cause some people to respond with immature accusations and "pot calling the kettle black" words, so I decided to delete it.

As for a Bella topic, I cannot yet figure out how it is that discussing Edward and/or Jacob's behavior toward Bella and her reactions to it is not related to Bella and off-topic. Thus, since you want to shut down the previous discussion because you feel however you do, I respected that request and didn't take it any further.

Personally, I completely agree with EsmeEcho in her assessment that BOTH Edward and Jacob attempt to control Bella. Though, I do not agree with your assertion that Jacob only tries once to control her. Jacob's attempts to control Bella do not end until Breaking Dawn and his stunt at the wedding. Personally, telling your best friend you will not allow her to choose the life she wants because you don't approve is attempting to control her. The difference between the two is that Bella fights back much more overtly against Jacob's control because he does it in a much more overt way. I actually find it to be a very important part of Bella's growing process. Because of Jacob's utter refusal to accept her choice, she starts to learn that she cannot please everyone and really needs to examine the idea of being true to herself rather than what others want from her. It is what allows her to let Jake go and to accept marrying Edward as a part of her life, something she inevitably has Jake to thank for.

But, again, if looking at her relationships and how she handles them is an off topic discussion for Bella's thread, my apologies.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:18 am
by Amanda Beth
I guess everyone has different outlooks on what "controlling" it. I see it as him fighting for Bella not to turn into vampire is no different than trying to get your friend out of what you think is a using hardcore drugs (not talking about Edward, but Jake sees being a vampire as such) at first and then after that it's just he loves her and he's a kid.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:04 pm
by Heart_in_Hand
Amanda Beth wrote:I guess everyone has different outlooks on what "controlling" it. I see it as him fighting for Bella not to turn into vampire is no different than trying to get your friend out of what you think is a using hardcore drugs (not talking about Edward, but Jake sees being a vampire as such) at first and then after that it's just he loves her and he's a kid.

I think we need to look at it from Bella's perspective to determine who and if anyone is "controlling" her. I think Bella get's very angry with Edward for doing the things he does in Eclipse to keep her from seeing Jake, and rightfully so. But I think she also recognizes that Jacob's interference in her life with Edward is way out of line, because they both know that his interests are not simply friendly. She tells him more than once that it is none of his business, and yet he does not back off. The more she denies him access to the subject of her relationship with Edward, the more he connives and pushes her.

The difference here is that Edward is Bella's significant other, and so the decisions Bella makes really are his business. It would be like if I was going over some other guys house and doing really dangerous things and my fiance wasn't invited. He would likely tell me he doesn't want me to go because A) I'm dating him and shouldn't be out gallivanting with other guys and B) He can't be there to help me if I get hurt. How would you like to get a call that your girlfriend/boyfriend is in the hospital because they were in an accident or something, and not you but some other guy (who you know has feelings for your partner) is the one that was there to take care of him/her.

There is a mix of concern and jealousy that was affecting Edward's decisions and behavior toward Bella... just like with Jake. So how is that any different than excusing Jacob's behavior away with "he was young and in love"? Edward was in love too... and he may not be young, but all of this relationship stuff was just as new to him as it was to Jacob. And he was actually with Bella! If you ask me, he had way more right to influence Bella's actions than Jacob ever had. If only because that is what was more acceptable to Bella.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:46 pm
by una
Just a friendly MOD reminder about this forum and the Lex rules:

Character Discussion Guidelines:

This is a character discussion forum. All posts containing the following will be deleted or edited at the moderators' discretion:
  • IM or chatroom type posts
    Off topic posting
    "OMG He's so hot!" or any other variation of "fangirl squee"
    Casting Discussions
    One word/line posts - when posting it should contain a fact, opinion, theory, etc that contributes to the discussion.
This is a serious discussion forum. Consider your posts thoughtfully. This is also not a debate forum. We are here to discuss in depth the characters of Twilight. That being said, we welcome people with various views but ask that we keep this a friendly discussion and exchange of ideas and opinions backed by facts, interpretations from the book, and/or SM correspondence/interviews, etc. We are not here to sway one another to our view but be able to openly discuss our views and opinions in regards to these characters.

So far you guys have been doing very well in keeping this a respectful discussion (especially when you disagree) and I for one would like it to stay that way. In regards to the topic at hand, as long as the discussion of Edward and Jacob's tug-of-war over Bella is always being related back to how Bella reacts, is affected by, etc, then it IS on-topic. If you guys get lost discussing Edward vs. Jacob, then you are off-topic and I will have to swoop in and swat you all and I really don't want to do that as we have been doing so well so far. Also, another reminder, if you want to discuss casting aka Kristen Steward, we have a forum (and thread) for that. This is not the place to discuss Ms. Stewart. We are discussing the character of Bella. If you would like to discuss "movie" Bella versus "book" Bella as a compare and contrast the character, that is fine, but not who would be better to portray movie Bella, how Kristen Stewart portrays her, etc. I hope you understand the distinction.

And finally, please do not double post (post after you have already posted in the same day, provided no one else has posted after you). If you are trying to quote from more than one person, you can scroll down to the bottom of the posting (where you type your post) screen where the previous posts are shown, highlight a section from another person's post and press the "Quote" button at the beginning (top of that) PARTICULAR person's post and it will be added to your "editing/typing" area of your post. Please also remember to edit what you are quoting to the pertinent parts of the other person's post. As per the Posting Regulations, we ask that you avoid excessive quoting (ie: quoting HUGE sections from someone else's post when only a line or two is necessary).

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM your local, friendly Mod.


ETA: Also, as is custom in many of the threads, we typically keep a spoiler free zone until about one to two weeks after a new movie, book, etc is released to allow everyone to "catch-up". How long do you all agree we should give before we discuss the difference, if you would like, between "movie" Bella and "book" Bella? If there are any differences between the screen play version and SM's version.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:19 pm
by Jazz Girl
Heart_in_Hand wrote: If you ask me, he had way more right to influence Bella's actions than Jacob ever had. If only because that is what was more acceptable to Bella.
And this is the point I will come back to over and over. In opening herself to and accepting a relationship with Edward, Bella acknowledged and accepted a certain role for Edward in her life. I am not saying that it gave him permission at all to control her actions or her thoughts or her feelings. But, even in the most modern of relationship, the role of protector is a part of it. I believe it is a matter of protecting each other equally. In my relationship with my husband, I do everything I can to protect him. In the context of our relationship, it is protecting him from the mundane concerns of driving safely or excercising and taking his medication to manage his health concerns. And, he does the same for me. It is our partnership. In the case of Edward & Bella, and I am not saying there is not some jealousy involved because we are all aware and accepting that there is, but the fact of the matter is that Edward is attempting to protect Bella from a real and recognized (from both parties) threat, first and foremost. No matter how hard we argue that the werewolves are safe, that Jacob is safe, they pose a risk, plain and simple. Even Bella acknowledges and accepts that. Think about the fact that she hears the delusion of Edward not once but TWICE while with Jake. Her conscious mind denies the danger, but she knows the truth. Of course she doesn't accept it....complete lack of self preservation, remember? But, you can see in the way she handles it that she accepts that Edward at least has the right to act to protect her. She never tells him to butt out or that it's none of his business. Because it is. She wants to be his mate, his spouse. She wants to share his life and recognizes that, just as she has every right to react and act when he is doing something she considers dangerous or unsafe, so too does he. Yes, she reasons with him, she compromises with him and gets him to somewhat accept her point of view and her decision. That's a part of the relationship, a part of the role Edward plays in her life and that she completely accepts and revels in.

Her reaction with Jacob is much different but equally as telling. Yes, she is constantly folding to Jake's efforts and advances and has a hard time keeping up boundaries where he is concerned. But, the one thing she is always clear on, always set in stone about is that Edward and not Jacob fills that role in her life. Jacob may be her best friend, or even a little more. But, the bottom line is that she never chose Jake in that way. She never made the commitment to him that would give him the right to say, "I won't let you do that." She was ALWAYS CLEAR on at least that. It would always be Edward, period. And, she was damn well straightforward about it too, telling him everytime he crossed that particular line just how far he'd crossed it. Therefore, no matter how much he wanted that role, no matter how much he thought he deserved it more, he never had it. And, that is what makes his interference and attempts to control Bella's behavior, to interfere in her decisions about her future, much more unacceptable.

Bella is as clear on that as she is in her feelings for Edward. "It's none of you business, Jake. Butt out."

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:59 pm
by Esme echo
holdingoutforjacob, which times did you particularly wish that Bella had been held more accountable for her actions? (BTW, I don't think I've ever told you, I love your avatar.)

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:38 pm
by amethyst
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Jacob did it once. Edward did it repeatedly. Jacob did it because he thought that she was not grounded, she was being allowed to see Edward at will. He figured if he couldn't see her, Edward shouldn't be able to either. It's all in "Being Jacob Black". Edward figured Bella couldn't make her own decisions. Jacob was upset and angry. Edward had perfect control of his emotions and knew exactly the impact of his decision and did it anyway. Just saying.
---Jacob did it because he did not want Bella anywhere near Edward
---In Being Jacob Black, the reason being, that he feared that any of the vampires would be tempted and suck her blood
---Whether Jacob lacks self control or whether Edward has self control is not the case and is an inadequate justification. Bottom line, he crossed a line -- he felt he had a say in whom is safe and whom is unsafe enough for her. Conclusion: he does not have the right!
---He did it more than once, add to that a few cases of manipulation. By your standards, that would entail a controlling person.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:17 am
by swedishskinjer
Edward believed that Jacob constituted a threat, considering his distrust of his kind. Alice was unable to see Bella's future after La Push, so Edward assumed that she would be endangering herself. If you look at what happened to Emily, then Edward's actions become justifiable. What critics of Edward fail to mention is that he amended his ways before Jacob did, since Jacob was still disrespecting Edward's entire family in Breaking Dawn. By the conclusion of New Moon, Edward sincerely thanked Jacob and even drove Bella over to La Push himself. In Eclipse, Edward isn't even infuriated when Jacob manipulates Bella into kissing him, which is not the mark of a controller.

Jacob failing to understand Bella's love for Edward constantly occurs until Breaking Dawn. He's too deluded into thinking that he could somehow replace Edward, despite Bella's warnings that it will always be him. Jacob should be commended for healing Bella, but he abused her trust by trying to become more than a close friend.

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:20 am
by Esme echo
Don't forget that Edward knew the werewolves from the last time Carlisle's family was in Forks; he intimated that there were problems with control and people got hurt (Eclipse p. 30).

Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:06 am
by Jazz Girl
As much as I want to, I cant fault Jacob absolutely for feeling the way he does, or even for pursuing his chance with Bella. I think I am in the same catch 22 as Edward. I know how essential he was to pulling Bella through and out of the dark months. However, the thing that I take issue with is how he does it, never accepting Bella's decision, constantly pushing her boundaries, and attacking the Cullen's, who haven't ever done anything other than swallow his interference to keep from hurting Bella. That being said, yes, absolutely, Bella bears some responsibility because she fell for Jacob's manipulations, pursued him when he pulled his "retreat and lick my wounds" charade. But, Jake's blatant manipulations of Bella's emotional state and interference in issues he had no right in interfering just really are what make me not able to accept him completely.