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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:30 am
by diane771
I do believe that in one aspect the fact that Edward does not have to have physical contact with you has its advantages. But like Alice would do like recite the Battle Hymn Of Republic to keep Edward out of her thoughts. When Aro touches you what type of blocking do you have, except in Bella's case.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:55 am
by swedishskinjer
Jazz Girl wrote:
swedishskinjer wrote:Jazz Girl:

I'm not exactly sure if Edward could have handled reading Bella's thoughts for two different reasons:

1) It was a tense situation, so why would he want to make matters worse by succumbing to desire and reading Bella's mind without properly asking for her permission? Edward is far too polite to intrude during any emotionally intense moment. I'm sure that he would want his first "experience" with Bella's mind to be more intimate and private.

2) Aro and Edward are both able to read minds, yes, but Aro's ability is infinitely more potent in that he is able to have access to any thought in your lifetime. I've always wondered how he chooses a specific thought to see after making contact. Does he view many things at once before focusing on a specific time? Imagine how overwhelmed Edward would be if he attempted to tap into the mind of a superior immortal without knowing how to handle the immense amount of thoughts. It could potentially break his mind, since he's only accustomed to reading them on a much smaller scale.

Hmmmm, interesting points, both. However, as we know from both Twilight and Dark High Noon, Edward does not have control over whether or not he hears someone's thoughts. He has learned to tune out certain voices over the years, out of respect for his family. However, as he says, it's like being in a noisy room where 1000 voices are buzzing in the background. Some voices come through clearer because of how attuned to them he is. Also, there are only a few people in the room at the moment, all of whom he is trying to focus on to have the most information possible so he can save Bella and get them the hell out. And, in this case, he woudl be listening most intently to Aro anyways as he is the one who will make that call and he is the one closest to Bella, the biggest threat to her in that moment.

As to Aro, I don't know that I would necessarily agree that he is a superior immortal to Edward, just that his power works differently. Yes, he can seee every thought where Edward can only see what you are thinking in that moment. But, conversely, he must have physical contact where Edward does not, giving him an advantage in many situations. After all, it is Aro who covets Edward's powers, not vice versa. And, we know that vampires in general can process so many more things at once than we can. Surely, it woudl be maybe overwhelming for Edward, but I don't think at all that it would break him.

Which brings us back to the original question...
You seemed to be implying that, in this hypothetical situation of Edward succumbing to his specific wants, it would be intentionally and out of intense curiosity. He can't hear Bella anyway, so this probing of her mind would have to be intentional on his part, wouldn't it? Due to the nature of the situation, I don't think that Edward would have indulged in any of his desires, since his main focus was on ensuring their survival. He may be curious, yes, but he's not foolish.

As for the second point, I would say that it's very much debatable. Edward is able to hear thoughts from a distance, but only current thoughts. On the other hand, Aro is able to hear any thought that has crossed your mind since the beginning, including the current ones, after making physical contact. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, which balances it out rather nicely. Aro may covet Edward's ability, but doesn't Edward himself acknowledge the greater skill and potency behind Aro's talent in New Moon? He has had thousands of years to sharpen his mind, and vampirism doesn't make it difficult to forcefully contact a target in certain situations.

Hmm. I don't believe that "break" was the appropriate word...well, perhaps it needed some context, so here's my second try: I just don't think that he would be able to handle Aro's ability under the circumstances. Think of it this way: Edward is in a weakened state due to his lack of proper feeding. Furthermore, he's in the process of calming himself after the surprise of seeing that Bella is alive, and he's intensely aware of the danger before them. What would it feel like to read Aro's mind and also feel him flicking through years of thoughts? Would he even be able to process all of it without considerably weakening his mind and thus dropping a very significant guard against the Volturi for Bella: himself?

Edward is pretty much selfless. He would never violate Bella without first knowing that she approves.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:07 pm
by Jazz Girl
No, the question is asked with understanding that there is nothing intentional about Edward's reading thought. It comes back to the fact that Edward, while he can tune out the sounds of others thoughts, he cannot shut it off. So, yes, he would be completely focused on protecting Bella and getting them out alive, a part of his mind would recognize that if Aro reads Bella's thoughts, he can hear them second hand. Yes, Alice can interfere with his ability. But, that is a completely intentional action on her part. It is not something Edward can control. Aro would know he could do that but would have no reason to do so. So, again, the possiblity to hear her thoughts would be there. It's just a matter if he would look back and be disappointed that he didn't get that glimpse?

Edward hasn't shown any weakness or sense of being overcome previously in Aro's presence. Yes, he is overwhelmed by Bella's reappearance. But, Edward watched as Aro flicked through years of his own memories without being overwhelmed. He watched Aro read Marcus' thoughts without issue. Edward's only weakness is when he weakens himself, IMO. With Bella returned, he is focused and strong. The rest he can deal with later.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:20 pm
by Asheleyo
I don't think Edward would have any issues handling the amount of information flowing through Aro if he were to be able to read Bella. He does just fine when Aro reads Alice in New Moon and Renesmee in BD. Why should it be any different with Bella? He, like every vampire in this series, has enormous mental capacity; able to note several things at once with complete ease and in the blink of an eye.

But to the original question, I could see him, in one corner of his mind, being disappointed at the lost chance to get any glimpse inside her mind. I don't necessarily agree that he would never invade Bella's privacy like that. He spent most of his time in Twilight trying to do exactly that. He wanted in so badly. And as we see in BD, when she is finally able to let him in, he's so ecstatic that he just wants her to keep doing it. He wants to see everything he's missed. Every thought she has is precious to Edward. He would love to hear them all. He respects Bella's desire not to have him read every thought, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be quite ready and willing to hear them all.

I think Edward had worked out a theory by that point in New Moon that we're referencing: He probably believed that since his and Aro's gifts were so very similar that he would most certainly not be able to see inside her mind just as Edward cannot, hence the smug look. I thought Rob's look for Edward in the movie was more anxious, like he was every so slightly worried that it would work and she would be nothing special to Aro, and therefore easily dispensable. Then he could also wonder, if Aro's gift worked on her, why it is that his seems defective when it comes to Bella but everyone else seemed to be able to do their thing just fine around her. It could make him feel somewhat inferior.

But I guess I could stretch that to wistful. Expressions can be hard to interpret.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:07 am
by alphanubilus
Edward Cullen and I have a sorded past. When I first read Twilight, like Bella I had dreams of Edward Cullen. Now if you are a girl, that is cool, and apparently obsession generating. However, if you are a guy, it is quite troublesome. However, not to worry. In my dreams I was strangling him, only to realize that alas... he doesn't need to breath, so my efforts were in vain. Darn me. I should have brought a stake. :D

I will be honest I never clicked well with the Edward Cullen character. I'm not an Edward basher, but as a writer there are things that really bugged me about him, that never seemed to find ramiphication through out the series. In many ways Edward is almost the perfect man. He has money... He has looks.... He has charm... He's protective, fast, uber strong... His breath forever smells of mint, and he sparkles to boot. He's also compassionate, caring, and extremely doting. With all of these wonderful qualities, how can anybody really NOT like Edward?

It all comes down to this... Why doesn't Edward trust Bella? Every problem Edward puts Bella through happens because he didn't trust her. Through out Twilight he "stalks" her, as he wants to protect her. He really cares for her, and understandably to a vampire, a mere human would be rather breakable, and Bella seemed to always be getting into trouble. So Twilight Edward was totally understandable... but then here comes New Moon Edward...

Bella sees that the only way she will find true happiness with him, is IF she is a vampire, like Edward. Edward on the other hand thinks that becoming a vampire is the worse thing that can happen, so much so, he uproots his entire family, because of it. He uproots his entire family because he doesn't want to put Bella in danger and have to make that choice to turn her, even though that is what she wants. His decision is disasterous, as it nearly costs Bella her life and his own.

Again, Bella knows what she wants. She feels it, and it feels right. We know from Breaking Dawn that Bella was right all along. She was born to be a vampire. It was her destiny.

Getting back to New Moon Edward... Edward loves Bella, but Edward doesn't trust that Bella knows what is best for her. We see how that worked out.

However, we see something about New Moon Bella. She is a LOT stronger than she appears. She survives (Barely) a drug-like Edward withdrawl, as a real relationship with an immortal is supernatural. She survives countless crazy stunts. She along with Alice save Edward in Volterra. She performs amazingly in front of the Vulturi.

By now Edward should learn that even though Bella is human, she is a strong woman in her own right and she knows what is best for her life, as it is her life... However, not only doesn't Edward face the ramiphications of his actions, despite all that Bella has proven to him, he still doesn't trust her enough to give her what she wants...until he is forced to side, due to the vote.

Then comes Eclipse Edward... It seems that Edward learned nothing from his experience in New Moon, as he doesn't trust Bella enough to be with her best friend Jacob. Sure Jacob is a werewolf and werewolves can be dangerous, but then again we are dealing with Bella, danger is her middle name, as it literally hunts her down. Edward becomes jelouse of Jacob (there isn't any real reason, Bella has made her choice) and forces Bella to not see him. This puts tons of strain on Bella and it fuels Jacob's fire. Again, all Edward had to do is TRUST Bella, and he would have avoided a lot of misery, especially for Bella, but no.

By the end of the book... Is Bella right.... YUP. Despite all the adversity and hardships, again Bella only proves that she knows what she is doing and Edward should have trusted her.

Edward's greatest "sin" though comes in Breaking Dawn. Bella gets pregnant and Edward is afraid for her life. Bella KNOWS that this baby is going to be a blessing. Edward isn't so sure. Again, his old enemy arises and he doesn't trust that she knows what is best for her. In despiration, he actually tries to talk Jacob into coaxing Bella into an abortion, with the consolation prize of having puppies instead. (not really puppies, but Edward did say it. :D ). Jacob doesn't agree with Bella, but you have to hand it to the wuff, he did trust her.

The sad fact is, Edward didn't trust Bella until she was a vampire, his equal. This to me is sad and something that Edward will eventually have to answer for.

The reality is, relationships are largely based upon trust. My Grandfather worked as a marriage councilor for several years, and he still does, when the need arises. 99.9% of failed marraiges happen because they don't trust each other. You see a relationship is a partnership, and sometimes hard choices have to be made. Life isn't all about frivelous easy decisions, and as a husband or wife, you are going to have to (one day) trust your spouse with a choice... a choice you may not understand or like, but that is how it works.

Edward's greatest flaw is his inability to trust Bella.

In the end Bella was right. She was right all along. She knew what she was doing.

To bad Edward couldn't have seen that earlier. Then again... had he done so... the series would have ended with Twilight, and there would have never been a Jacob Black...well a werewolfry Jacob Black. :D

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:41 pm
by diane771
Edward wasn't the perfect guy, and yes he has a lot going for him but you can not demean him for not trusting JACOB.
Edwards trust of Bella was there, it was his mistrust of Jacob and the possibility of Jacob losing control with his temper and hurting Bella. Everyone seems to forget that Jacob is a hot head when it comes to Edward and a newly into phasing. He still didn't have it under control by BD.

How could Edward feeling like he does take Bella's soul away from her just because she wanted to become a vampire. To lose her family and never get to do what he could have if his life was human and he wasn't going to die. College, love, marriage and family. Who can find fault in Edward not wanting Bella to regret her desision and he did nothing to stop or prolong her life?

Pregnancy even Carlisle thought that Bella would not survive the birth and she wouldn't have if Edward had not turn her. So who was right ? Edward by saying that the pregancy would kill her? or Bella?

Bella totally played mind games with Edward in Eclipse and he put up with more than any man would with her "friendship" with Jacob. Jacob in turn never let up on Bella about how wrong Edward was for her. Trust was not the issue between Edward and Bella I see it as Edward not trusting Jacob at all. Remember Edward knows all the manipulation that Jacob is doing and causing Bella more stress and pain. Even when they got married, Jacob would not let go. So I do believe that the trusting issue is with Jacob and not Bella.

No Bella wasn't right all the time, she played Edward and Jacob against each other in Eclispe to the point I really stopped liking her. Her whole universe was what she wanted and she didn't think things out completely. I think that Edward trying to slow things down was good for Bella and gave her more time to grow up. But thats just how I see it.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:24 pm
by Jazz Girl
Alphanubilus~ It is certainly an interesting way to look at things. However, I think there was slightly more to it than that. I don't think that Edward didn't trust Bella. I think he wanted to make sure she would never regret her decision. What she was asking for was eternity. Edward knew, either from personal experience or from the experiences of his foster mother and sisters, exactly what Bella would have to sacrifice to have that. Edward wanted nothing more than to love Bella as long as he possibly could. But life is never that simple. For Bella's happiness, and also for his own peace of mind, Edward had to be sure Bella took all of those factors under consideration.

Diane~ Absolutely. I could not have said it better myself. I have said it over and over again. When you examine the relationships in the Twilight Saga, you absolutely CAN NOT remove the supernatural elements and influences in the story. And, absolutely every decision Edward made in regards to Bella was driven by the fact that Bella's life was surrounded by the supernatural, and she wanted to join that designation.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:39 am
by Asheleyo
The problem I see with Edward not wanting to turn Bella so that she would still live a human life is that, at least after New Moon, Edward still wanted her for as long as he could have her. He wanted to keep her, but not change her. As long as he has Bella, she has no hope for children or a normal life. So what is he really saving her from? The only thing he is doing is leaving open the option for Bella to leave him. In that, he might as well be telling her that he doesn't believe her love is strong enough to keep her with him for the rest of her life. If it is strong enough, then she just wasted her life when she could have an eternity with him. If it's not strong enough...well, we know it is, so there's really no point going there. And even if Bella chose to leave at some point, Edward would still be out there waiting for his chance. He would never leave her alone. So I really find his stubbornness in not wanting to change her annoying. He wanted to keep her for a human length of forever, i.e. the rest of Bella's life, but he wasn't willing to extend her the courtesy of choosing a real forever, one where she didn't have to watch to differences in their ages grow and grow, to the point of ridiculousness. Honestly, if I were Bella, I probably couldn't help but feel a bit insulted by Edward's obstinance on this issue.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:02 am
by diane771
Edward NEVER said that he wanted to KEEP Bella, he said he would be there for her. Big difference. Edward only wanted Bella's happiness and if she found it and wanted to have childern, Edward would still be there and still love her. I think you are not getting that. Edward was not wanting Bella to stay human to deny her human wants and needs such as family, and other things, and most people who read into that don't really see what Edward is offering her. He is offering her life and his love and letting her know that he loves her so much that he will be on the earth as long as she is alive. A world without Bella is a world that Edward could not live in. If Bella chosed Jacob, Edward would have accepted that and still loved her till she died.
So Edward was never intending on taking anything away from Bella's life.
well, we know it is, so there's really no point going there. And even if Bella chose to leave at some point, Edward would still be out there waiting for his chance. He would never leave her alone. So I really find his stubbornness in not wanting to change her annoying
That statement to me isn't what I read into Edward when I read the books. But everyone has their own opinion but just by the way Edward acted in the Saga just shows you he put Bella's happiness before his own. And he love doing that.

Re: Edward Cullen #6

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:59 am
by alphanubilus
I still stand by my thoughts. I'm not saying that Edward didn't love Bella, but I believe that Edward didn't trust her motivations, as like any other human, she is affected by him being a vampire. The reality of the supernatural addiction is revealed in New Moon, once he breaks up with her. Her actions were that of an addict trying to go clean. She was having withdrawls and you combine that with the loss of love, it nearly destroyed her. HOWEVER, Bella wasn't totally destroyed and largely due to the help of Jacob Black, her broken soul started mending. The reality is, she can live with out Edward and actually find happiness. She is, in fact, stronger than she ever believed.

However, that whole mess would have been avoided had Edward simply told her how he felt. He hints, he pines, he broods, but he doesn't sit down and just talk to her about it. It is Carlisle that reveals Edward's fear for her mortal soul, not Edward. Edward is so afraid of this, that he lies to her (lying in a relationship no matter the "motivation" does not solve problems, but creates more). If he felt that the only way to save her, was to leave her, he should have been honest about it, and honest with her. Lying to somebody is a sign of lack of trust.

Again folks, trusting somebody, doesn't mean that their decisions are right or that you have to agree with them, or even like what they have in mind. If the decision is wrong, call a spade a spade, and do something abou it.

In reference to Bella's pregnancy. Even in normal pregnancies there is always a chance things will go wrong. I have friends who are doctors (I could never be one... I would pass out just looking at the needles :) ) and one of whom works with pregnancy, and the reality is, some pregnancies go horribly wrong. If they abort the pregnancy, it would save the life of the young lady, or they can carry through and risk her life, to save the baby. As much as we'd like all stories to end happily, it doesn't always happen.

Bella was fully aware of what she was asking. She loved her unborne baby. She knew the great risk she was taking, but she would do what any mother would do, to save their child, even if it meant sacrificing her life.