Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

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December
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by December » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:00 pm

Squeee, it's Ouisa! Welcome home my dear....
Ouisa wrote:I adore Jacob have I loved.
And hey look....I still love Jacob.

Ha! It was Fate, obviously....

(Hang on, can't remember now: do we believe in Fate, or is it all about choices?)

My favourite book from school....Now is that: what book did I love most when I read it in school? Or which of the books that I read in school do I love most today? The answer to the first would probably be Pride and Prejudice or Bleak House. Nowadays...it would probably be Hamlet. But then, we read an awful lot of stuff that wasn't exactly books: poetry, Greek tragedies, essays, Mallory, The Canterbury Tales (it was a very old-fashioned curriculum). Not sure how to weigh those up against the novels. I loved John Donne....
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by Openhome » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:58 pm

Ouisa wrote:First, Did the message of the movie match the book for you?

NO! Big time no.
Eclipse is all about the loss of humanity that Bella was supposed to experience when being turned. The biggest and best example of this would be (for me...) The Great Dog Snog (there were other moments but one can get why I fixate on this one.)

The Great Dog Snog was done completely wrong. Yes it was a nice kiss...there even was a tiny bit of hair pulling but what makes that kiss amazing, what makes that kiss absolutely totally belong in the series is the accompanying vision. Without that vision, there is every reason for the Edward girls to get upset, but it's that vision those two adorable curly headed babies and the life that is contained in that kiss, that choice that we as readers and (on my part reluctant) movie goers need. We need to get exactly why she should choose Jake and exactly what the price of Bella's choice to stay with Edward should cost her. It's the whole point of Eclipse.... of Rose's stories (more curly headed babies) and to some extent Bree's. In that moment...in that vision Bella finally gets what Rose and Edward and Jake are trying to tell her....and she chooses anyway. Snap goes the last threads on that pretty red ribbon.....

(Granted the whole horrible price thing is negated by Breaking Dawn but hey I'm one of those people who chooses to ignore that story.)
Ouisa!! Welcome!
I couldn't agree more with you. As FanNMN wrote, that kiss and then the talk at the end of the movie, telling us what the movie was about ruined it for me (thus my very leading question :D )

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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by dreamony » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:03 pm

cullengirl wrote:
fanMNM wrote:I feel like the scene at the end of the movie sort of blurred the meaning of the movie a bit. I get that the filmmakers were trying to show that Bella was sort of meant to be a vampire because of her struggle at simply being human...but I feel like the connection, the devotion, between Edward and Bella is kinda thrown out in that scene. It almost sounds like Bella is saying that becoming a vampire is what she is meant to do, and that Edward is just a bonus in the whole deal. I never got that from the books...it was always Bella's choice to change because she loved Edward so much. (Anyone else see that, or am I nuts?) :?
You're not nuts. The ending is one of the many things that I did not like about the movie (full review coming soon as soon as I see it *coughforcedtocough* the second time). I really felt that the director and screenwriter didn't understand the concept of choice in the movie at all. They tried to bring up the relationship triangle, which was neither here nor there, as well as the change. Although I love her line at the end of the movie, I think it was the screenplay writers last chance to say something about choice. Yes, ultimately it is Bella's choice to decide whether or not she wants to change, but she does change and sacrifice herself for love.
I completely agree the ending was all wrong. Bella's choice was about love not lifestyle. I was utterly shocked by the gloss-over of her heart-wrenching choice and then they made her motives seen shallow (I love then both but I want to be a vampire?). In BD it covers how perfect she is for the life of a vampire, I don't think it needed to be addressed in this movie.

Ouisa I agree that without the vision of Jacob and Bella's alternate reality life Bella's choices are not adequately represented.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by December » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:47 pm

Oh Ouisa, I hadn't even thought about this aspect of it. At least not clearly enough. But it's really all of a piece with the Bella's new speech in the Meadow scene, isn't it? One more way in which the filmmakers seem hell-bent on dismantling the reading of Eclipse which you and I believed in -- abandoning the idea that, as you say, "Eclipse is all about the loss of humanity that Bella was supposed to experience when being turned."

Eclipse is the book in which Stephenie lays out for us, beyond all doubt, just how much Bella is prepared to forfeit for Edward. Until this point, it's all about wish-fulfillment: about gaining immortality and the world's most perfect boyfriend. In Eclipse we glimpse the possibility that this is about sacrifice. Giving up Everything for Love.

And if we don't believe this is what Bella is doing, if we don't see that vision of the two little children's heads bobbing off into the underbrush, and watch her mourn for Charlie and Renee and Angela, if we don't believe that Bella IS suited to life in the real world, and that she could have been happy with Jake and the white picket fence (or corrugated iron, more likely), if we really believe she's better off anyway being changed because she's a natural vampire -- well, the splendour of that story goes up in smoke. It is the bitter loss which gives Edward and Bella's love story its killing edge, which makes this a romance edged with lines of fire, one fit (for all its amaturishnesses and cliches) to take its place among the great romantic tales of the world. Gloss over that and Edward and Bella are just another sweet teenage couple.

I think you have just persuaded me that we actually needed the love triangle and TGDS, and the night of tears and all the things that drove so many Swoony girls nuts. That when it comes to truly conveying Edward and Bella's imperishable love for one another, Stephenie paradoxically got it right, and the movie-makers soft-pedalling the pull that Jake represents got it wrong. It needs to be a full life, rich with human possibilities, which Bella lays on the altar of her love for Edward. Not a damaged second-best to a some sparkly superhero existence she's always been meant for -- with the human joys she is turning her back on airbrushed out of our view. We need to see the exorbitant price that she is willing to pay to be with Edward, because that's the measure of her love.

And so help me, we didn't make this up.

"In both Twilight and New Moon, Bella commits to becoming a vampire without once really examining what price she'll pay. In Eclipse, Bella fully comprehends that price. And then she chooses to pay it. Every aspect of the novel revolves around this point, every back story, every relationship, every moment of action...."

--Stephenie Meyer, Eclipse FAQ's


Every aspect of the novel, anyway....
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by Ouisa » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:06 pm

Exactly!

However there is one gift of movie to me and that is I finally see the swoony side of things. I can understand now why people were bothered by that kiss, felt it was out of place with the grand sweeping swoony epic they wanted to be reading. Because, without that vision, without the pain of that horrible choice made clear to Bella one also doesn't see the terrible painful game Jacob is playing either. Poor dear Jake isn't so much desperate to get the girl he wants into his warm wolfy embrace as he is desperate to save her life at all costs. Sure, Bella choosing him and having lotsa kisses (and making of the curly headed babies) with him for as long as they both shall live is nice and all but really what Jake is trying in EC is to tie her to Earth and save her life no matter the cost to her heart (and to his).

That message is lost in Eclipse the Motion Picture. Instead Jake looks like a pathetic child hanging on to a love that clearly doesn't want him; whining and begging her and MOONING over her. (ha ha ha mooning...werewolf....) I can see how missing the point of this desperate act on Jake's part would make the kiss and Bella's subsequent crying really annoying to someone lost in the swoony aspects of Bella and Edward's tale.

I realized yesterday that it's this whole dilemma, this whole painful question of progression and reproduction that settles the Edward/Jake question for me. Sure I'm team Jake because hello with the hotness but moreso because I don't want the great swoony epic love if it's to be the empty cold life that Rosalie so despises. I want that progression and life that Jake represents. I want the curly headed babies and the growing old and progressing that comes with spending your life with your true love. I want my warm wild spaceheater and all his brothers to come over and let me cook up huge lasagnas and pies and watch them disappear. Stephenie convinced me so well of the dead end that was vampire life and love that Edward couldn't hold a sparkly candle to my Jake. It's why I can read Twlight and Midnight Sun and go....wow...swoon and then move on to New Moon and Eclipse and say ...yeah thanks but no thanks I'll be over there with the wolf boys.

This is why, no matter how much better the wigs get and no matter little KStew stutters in this one, these movies will never ever touch my experience with these books. And this is why I can honestly say I'm not a fan of the Twilight Saga Movies. They just can't begin to express the life changing experience I had with these books. They can't begin to portray what I learned about love and relationships from them.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by LadyDi » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:43 pm

FanMNM, great question!
That's a tough one to answer though. I remember in grade 9 we had to do a novel with a Holocaust theme. I knew I couldn't handle "Night" so I picked one called "Alan and Naomi". Handle it? Ha! I cried and cried during reading it, after reading it, and then some. It wasn't my favourite, but it did make a mark on me.
In elementary school, I remember that one of my teachers read to the class from "The Great Gilly Hopkins" and I loved it. Katherine Patterson can write so well!
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by una » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:00 pm

My favorite books from school are: Where the Red Fern Grows, Heart of Darkness, I also enjoyed reading John Donne, Edgar Allen Poe and Shakespeare.

However, while reading those, I indulged in Agatha Christie, Stephen King and Dean R Koontz. These were not required per say, but I had a few teachers that allowed them as my "extra" book reports.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by cullengirl » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:25 pm

As promised here is my review, which mostly focuses on the lack of theme of choice in the movie.

Warning this post is long!

Eclipse is my favorite book in the Twilight Saga. Meyer successfully combines humor, romance, and suspense into a thought provoking novel. The theme of choice is predominant in the book. In the first two books, Bella has already made up her mind to become a vampire without comprehending how much she will lose in that process. In Eclipse, she not only understands what she chooses to become a vampire despite all the things she might lose. Every aspect of the novel revolves around this point.

My main problem with the film adaptation is that this theme of choice is danced around and the characters vaguely talked about it, but it is never shown to the viewer throughout the movie. It was as if the director, screenwriter, or both, were not sure what to make of the theme, which as a result made the movie choppy and left me empty and confused. I know that film adaptations of books and the original novels are two separate forms of art that depends on one’s interpretation or vision. I also know that the films will change parts of the book, but they should retain at the very least the spirit of the book. Eclipse, however, resembles the book in its superficial form; however it lacks the heart and emotions that affected many of its readers.

In my opinion what has plagued the Twilight Saga movies so far is the lack of character and relationship development, particularly of the leading pair. In the Twilight movie (which I absolutely abhor), Bella and Edward’s relationship isn’t discussed. In the span of one hour they meet, dislike one another, and then can’t live without one another. Even literature’s fastest relationship, Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet, took at least three days to develop.

To say the least there were many things missing in the first two movies. The viewer needed to see Bella and Edward talking and getting to know one another. We also needed to see how both of them loved each other in their own way. In other words, we needed to see why Bella is so devastated when Edward leaves in New Moon. In New Moon (which I thought was very well done out of the three movies), we needed Edward to apologize for leaving and have his epiphany of loving Bella. We needed to recognize that Bella is a strong, different person now who sees Jacob as a satisfying match (if monsters and magic didn’t exist), but who also knows that Edward is someone she can not live without. These necessary parts can be shown through dialogue and emotions in the movies. The relationships in Eclipse continue the trend of its predecessors. Instead of a complex love triangle, I saw a nonexistent one.

Bella continues to be robotic and cold. She has some powerful phrases that are suppose to tug on your heart strings, but they just come out as words without any emotions. For example, when Bella visits Jacob after he is injured from the battle scene is one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the Twilight Saga. This is the moment where she has finally admits to herself that she does love Jacob, but is ready to leave him. She is in tears for leaving her best friend, who has helped her in her darkest times and who she possibly may not see ever again. In the movie, the scene lacks emotion from Kristen Stewart. She does not seem sad or even comes across as even caring for Jacob in any way. There are no tears or watery eyes or even a lip tremor from her. Taylor Lautner, however, does a great job in expressing Jacob’s anguish through is facial expressions. This scene is extremely important thematically. Jacob represents what Bella would have if she continues to live her life as a human. Jacob and Bella’s complex relationship, which is developed quite nicely in the New Moon movie, is negated and not recognized at all in Eclipse. A missing scene where Bella breaks down in front of Edward needed to be included to show the viewers just how much Jacob means to her.

Another scene that left me unsatisfied is the ending of the movie. Bella has finally made her well informed decision to become a vampire. She states that she wants to become a vampire (I’m paraphrasing): “It was never a choice between you [Edward] or Jacob, but between who I should be and who I am.” While I love this line, but I think it does not send the real message of the book. Bella is choosing to become a vampire because of love, but rather the statement says that Bella is choosing to become a vampire because it gives her another opportunity for her to fit in. True, it is ultimately Bella that must make a choice, but the reason why she chooses is for love.

Edward for the most part is emasculated and mute for most of the movie. Many of his dialogues in the book allow the readers to see not only his flaws, but also his many attempts to make up for his dramatic exit in New Moon. In the movie, Edward comes across as a lovesick puppy whose main goal is to try to persuade Bella in marrying him. He seems less concerned and frustrated with her making the choice of joining him. Serious issues such as having a soul and experiencing humanity are glossed over in the few minutes before and after the proposal. I am the first person to admit that I do not like Robert Pattinson as an actor. I don’t think he can act and he is most definitely not my version of Edward. I do, however, see the screenwriter not giving him a voice or even an opportunity to try to become Edward. It comes across as if the viewers already know Edward and therefore, he does not need to be explained. I thought Robert did a good job in the proposal scene. What continues to bother me is that Edward is supposed to be a good fighter, who uses his ability to read minds to his advantage. He appears to be the opposite in the movies and has a hard time defeating his opponents.

Unlike the mute Edward, Jacob is given a voice and presence in the movie. Instead of continuing his role as Bella’s best friend, he comes across as a spoiled, whiny boy who is struggling to win something that he knows he can never have. Jacob’s role in the Twilight Saga is complex. He is not only Bella’s best friend, but also a symbolism of the humanity Bella would lose if she becomes a vampire. It is clear from the movie that he does not agree with Bella’s decision; however, Jacob should be seen as trying to understand why Bella makes her choice. The movie should have built upon their friendship. I saw a flicker of this in the scene where Jacob and Bella attend the tribe meeting where the Third Wife story is mentioned. I can see the two characters feel uncomfortable in their possible future roles. More scenes like this where these two characters connect with one another should have been added.

In addition to the lack of a love triangle, I also found two inconsistencies in the movie that didn’t sit well with me. The first scene is at the graduation party where Alice sees a vision. Alice can not see her visions when wolves are present. Therefore the graduation scene where the wolves are present and the vision takes place doesn’t make sense. The second inconsistency has to deal with Bella’s engagement ring. I found the ring in the movie to be hideous. The ring in the book is described as a long oval face, set with slanting rows of glittering round stones, and a golden band. The ring from the movie looks like a shined, ordinary rock on a silver ring band.

There are parts of the movie, however, that I really enjoyed (no, really) such as the “talk” between Charlie and Bella as well as Bella visiting her mother in Florida, which were both very well executed by the actors in the movie. The Cullen training session and Jasper’s background story were well done. I glad that Jackson Rathbone finally had an opportunity to shine and was not creepy like the first two movies. The graduation speech and the appearance of the humans in the movie added a nice touch, but I wished they played a bigger part in Bella realizing the various relationships should be losing. Eclipse definitely has more of the humor and action than the first two movies. I just wish the movie spent a bit more time in developing the various relationships in the movie.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by fanMNM » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:00 pm

cullengirl- that was long! But it was very well laid out and I couldn't agree with you more...

I just saw the movie again this evening. I tired watching with a much more open mind than I did the 1st time, but I am afraid I did not succeed. As I watched Bella have her conversation with Rose...(which was actually a part of the movie I enjoyed...) I sat up paid attention as Bella answers Rose that "my life isn't bad." (something along those lines anyway...) So here she is, saying that she isn't running from being human, she's running TO Edward. However, we end the movie with that speech about it NOT being all about Edward...it's about her not fitting in as a human. Um, inconsistency much? Sorry, it was fresh in my mind so I thought I'd add it to the conversation!
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by fanMNM » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:19 pm

You guys all gave great responses! I found myself nodding and saying "oh yeah...I loved that one too!" LOL


Jane Austen has always been a favorite of mine...Pride and Prejudice always standing out as a favorite. I love Shakespeare...pretty much everything he ever wrote :) Wish I had more unique books to list, but what can I say? I'm a lover of the classics :)

So...let me know if you all are completely annoyed with the constant QOTDs!! I'm just one of those nosy people who love to ask questions...LOL


QOTD: What is your favorite non-fiction book?
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