Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

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December
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by December » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:25 pm

Teacher sounds like a major creep.

I read it in as an adult in the spirit of a Choices gal and thought...wow. (Actually, it was a couple of years before Twilight, but I guess I was already a Choices gal in the making!).
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December
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by December » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:37 pm

Yipes, so much to reply to. Going to start with this and then come back for a second bite when I've got more time....
ouisa wrote:I finally see the swoony side of things. I can understand now why people were bothered by that kiss, felt it was out of place with the grand sweeping swoony epic they wanted to be reading. Because, without that vision, without the pain of that horrible choice made clear to Bella one also doesn't see the terrible painful game Jacob is playing either. Poor dear Jake isn't so much desperate to get the girl he wants into his warm wolfy embrace as he is desperate to save her life at all costs. Sure, Bella choosing him and having lotsa kisses (and making of the curly headed babies) with him for as long as they both shall live is nice and all but really what Jake is trying in EC is to tie her to Earth and save her life no matter the cost to her heart (and to his).

Heh. Yes indeed. Though I think the Swoonies' distress came in different varieties. There were certainly those who objected stenuously to the manipulative way Jake precipitated TGDS. And as you say, a clear-headed recognition of the stakes here, -- not only in Jake's head, but in truth -- would go a long way towards absolving him of behaving badly. If you recognize the gravity of the sacrifice Bella is contemplating, Jake's determination to stop her at any cost looks excusable and even admirable.

That said, for other Swoonies, the issue wasn't so much Jake's behaviour as Bella's: whether it fatally tarnishes her supposedly imperishable love for Edward for her to suddenly be passionately snogging another boy. And there, one is on more paradoxical ground. I think the case can be made (and Lord knows I've tried to make it!) that nothing less than TGDS could make it truly plain to Bella (and us) what she is giving up in choosing Edward. If she hadn't gone to the very edge in exploring what her human life has to offer, neither she nor Edward nor the reader would be absolutely certain that she was making a fully informed choice. More important, it would whittle down the scale of the sacrifice she was making for Edward: a full and happy human life, with love, and joy and children. And it is that sacrifice that makes it clear beyond the last shadow of a doubt that this really is the kind of deathless passion which sweeping romantic epics are made of.

So that paradoxically, this seeming betrayal of that love helps to affirm it as a romance for all time.

But I recognize that even for the Ars Longa swoonies, that may be pushing it a bit (*grin*).


Cullengirl, Openhome: I want to return to your comments later!
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by Ouisa » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:48 pm

December wrote: That said, for other Swoonies, the issue wasn't so much Jake's behaviour as Bella's: whether it fatally tarnishes her supposedly imperishable love for Edward for her to suddenly be passionately snogging another boy. And there, one is on more paradoxical ground. I think the case can be made (and Lord knows I've tried to make it!) that nothing less than TGDS could make it truly plain to Bella (and us) what she is giving up in choosing Edward. If she hadn't gone to the very edge in exploring what her human life has to offer, neither she nor Edward nor the reader would be absolutely certain that she was making a fully informed choice. More important, it would whittle down the scale of the sacrifice she was making for Edward: a full and happy human life, with love, and joy and children. And it is that sacrifice that makes it clear beyond the last shadow of a doubt that this really is the kind of deathless passion which sweeping romantic epics are made of.

So that paradoxically, this seeming betrayal of that love helps to affirm it as a romance for all time.
Wow...it's interesting to me how the movie, even with it's inept portrayal of these deep questions, can respark these discussions that for me were central in my enjoyment of the lexicon and the fandom.

I never did understand the anger at poor confused Bella. I have had friends that only ever wanted to kiss one boy....I've never understood that. I'd rather have kissed several (but I'm not a trollop...really) and then said...yes but you are the one I would like to kiss forever, forsaking all others.... I've never understood single-minded devotion to anything (religion, identity, one's lover) I've always thought that such single-mindedness actually showed a lack of true commitment. I think instead exploring, looking at all the other possibilities , ruling them out as untrue or at least not the one true thing for you, leads to a deeper ability to make a true commitment, an informed choice. It seems perfectly natural to me to questions one's faith, devotion, love, whatever... I think it makes one's final decision that much more meaningful. Maybe this is why I never struggled with TGDS and the whole book of Eclipse.

That and I seem doomed to be in love with two people at once and have to choose....sigh.
Last edited by Ouisa on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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December
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by December » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:13 pm

Hee. Love the banner!!! (But you know that...).

I think one can be unhappy with Bella's dalliance with Jake for two quite different reasons. Some people hated TGDS because they felt that Bella was behaving badly. They saw it a reflection on her character: that if she truly loved Edward, it was unforgivable to permit herself to kiss another boy. To which one might reply, as you have, that it's only by truly exploring one's nature that one can be certain of committing oneself rightly...even where it's only about deciding between two possible lovers. A fortiori when deciding whether to give up your life! For some people, it may be possible to try something once and know they've got it right; but there are certainly others who need to learn more about what life has to offer. And it doesn't make them trollops.

There is however another objection to TGDS and the "infidelity" it entails: one which isn't so much a criticism of the character as of the author (or perhaps I should say, the story). And that is simply...if Edward and Bella's love really were the transcendent, mythic, unanswerable passion Stephenie would have us believe, it's JUST NOT CREDIBLE for Bella to suddenly start wondering if she's properly explored love's other possibilities. Humanly realistic? Totally. Healthy and laudable? Possibly. But consistent with the blinding, irrevocable love Bella feels for Edward? That's the hard part to defend. The fact that it might be good for Bella if her hypnotic obsession with Edward subsided enough for her to explore her feelings for another boy is irrelevant. Twilight is the story of a love so overmastering that it defies human understanding. It's not the sort of passion that subsides.

Which is why ONLY the gravity of the sacrifice that love will require of Bella could ever make sense of her wavering, and succumbing for a moment to the temptation of choosing a less bitter path (viz Jake). Leaving us (as I said before) with the just barely credible paradox that her moment of weakness is at the same time a sign of the extraordinary strength of her love for Edward....

ouisa wrote:That and I seem doomed to be in love with two people at once and have to choose....sigh.

Ouch.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by Ouisa » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:05 am

Well...then those people should blame THE BOY WHO LEFT!

just saying....I was a swoony too...until he left!

You know I do so love these discussions....
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December
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by December » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:20 am

ouisa wrote:Well...then those people should blame THE BOY WHO LEFT!

Heh.

You know, I don't know why but I've never managed to think of it in those terms and see TGDS as Edward's comeuppance for leaving Bella in NM. I suppose because, deep down, I DO believe it's far, far better for Bella to have had that intermission in her headlong plunge into the abyss.

I mean...just try imagining what her decision to become a vampire would look like if NM never happened, if all we saw was a girl who walks unwittingly into biology class, and bang! falls in love -- falls to her doom irrevocably, beyond redemption -- and proceeds to walk out of her human life without a backward glance. That really would feel like an innocent stolen away from life by fairies (which I think is more or less how Edward sees it). Edward's departure -- Bella's interlude with Jake and the La Push crowd -- sets her feet back on the ground. In this sense it really does achieve what Edward hoped for, and set Bella free from the irresistible spell he cast over her in TW.

Of course it isn't until the events of EC that we see just how far she really is liberated by his departure and return; but for me, that is what the vexed Love Triangle is really about. A kind of emotional ground-clearing which allows Bella to affirm, clear-sightedly and unenchanted, the depth and permanence of her love for Edward. Which is what (really) he always wanted for her. "Do you have a multiple-personality disorder", she shrewdly asks him in TW, and the answer is of course, yes. Part of Edward wants to pull Bella clear from the snare of loving him. Another part wants to hold her forever. With TGDS, the conflict between these two desires becomes less stark. The spell has been broken; she has walked out of the snare. And when she turns back and deliberately walks into his arms, he is at last free to take her.

So maybe it's not so much about blaming the boy who left as crediting him!...


ouisa wrote:just saying....I was a swoony too...until he left!

A swoony...for Mr. Prudeypants?? (*grin*)
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by una » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:38 pm

You are the epitome Choices Gal, December! :D

Cullengirl, oh yes, he did. In fact he ran off with one client's wife.
I am the Impulsive VampVixen.
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by bac » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:20 pm

Hi Ousia! Long time no see. Whenever I think of you I think of ORANGE, why?

Ahh, the things you learn about famous people when you read non fiction books about them. Sometimes I think I would rather be left in the dark as to who they truly are.

I am loving the QOTD and reading your answers. Some that I remember reading either for class or chose as a book report are
The Secret Garden
A Bridge to Terabithia
Lord of the Flies (this is one of the few books that I actually read all the way through in HS, I was not much of a reader, and it really struck me, not that I liked it, but I liked how we analyzed the book and looked at all the symbolism. It was a good step for me.)

Non fiction: Not sure, I haven't read a lot.

PSD (Paranormal Stud of the Day) : Xavier Samuel
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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

Post by fanMNM » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:42 pm

QOTD: since one of the things most of us on here have in common is our love for reading...tell us what characteristic you think is important in a main male character that makes him "yummy"? (one physical attribute and one personality trait) (If you'd like to answer the question about a main female character, of course u may do so as well!)
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Thank you Naureen!!

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Re: Gutter Guys & Gals Annex **Eclipse Spoilers**

Post by Ouisa » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:58 am

December wrote:
So maybe it's not so much about blaming the boy who left as crediting him!...
Leave it to you to find some way to excuse him! But actually you make really great points. The whole arc of love, leaving, consequences and resolution...every piece is necessary even the parts the two of us struggle with...the leaving and TGDS.

I actually got home about 30 minutes ago from a day trip out to Forks. This whole topic of choice, TGDS, sacrifice, love triangles and sparkleboy was a big topic. There was something kinda fun about laying on the beach in La Push talking about sacrifice, the celestial kingdom and how the movie got it all all all wrong. Which sadly we've deviated from in discussing choices. Sorry about that.

I do have today, on the topic of the movies, they've CHANGED Forks. I was out there two years ago, about 2 weeks before BD came out and while there were little Twilight things here and there, it wasn't in your face....Now it's all Twilight all the time. Every store has been Twilightified...there were these tour busses (covered in sparkles and paintings of the actors) and everywhere you looked was RPatz, KStew and that Taylor boy. Every person on the street was a Tween/Teen and her mother decked out in Twilight gear from head to toe. It was insane. I felt bad for the people who lived there....they must be so sick of it all.

Silly movies.
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