Gutter Gals & Guys School for Cullen-ary Arts --Adult Thread

[Tamalyn]

Rosalie worked very hard to keep her memories. Since we know that memories fade, I wonder how much of that involves emotion? Rose had a very tramatic experience which led to her death, but as she described the event, it was as she was having an outer body experience. I wonder if this occurs because it was so long ago and in a previous life? Or maybe she blocked the emotions from her memory. Some part of me believes Rose's hard exterior is a coping mechanism- as if she's in self-preservation mode. I'd like to think that Emmett came into Rosalie's life so she could learn to love and trust again.

That is a great point - Rosalie was attacked when she was a human, which means she may have let THAT particular memory fade a bit. That makes sense, too, considering how physically passionate her & Emmet's relationship is.

[NovaAlbion]

I have no idea why this just occured to me, but I find it interesting that given Rosalie's background history she doesn't combine what happend to her and with baking with Emmett, which is great. I wonder if that came up in a conversation with those two.

This is a brilliant observation. I have a couple of responses but let me talk about a couple of points that others brought up first.

As in you might think that because of Rosalie's past, cooking disaster, that she might not want to bake alot. But then I remembered hearing that some women who have had a history of being burnt(in the kitchen), often find themselves baking alot when the grow up.

I understand what you are saying, but my understanding is that "baking alot" after being burnt is usually an unhealthy response, seeking approval, inappropriately, due to damaged self-image and low self-esteem. Again, my understanding is that this type of behavior creates a self-fulfilling prophecy and a vicious circle from which the victims find recovery difficult without outside help.

I suppose that could be a bit like getting back on a horse after a fall. Like, just because you had one truly horrific experience, it shouldn't scare you away from the thing altogether.

Using this analogy, it depends on how injured you are at the time. If the injury is sever enough, you get medical treatment first. After you have healed, then you can climb back on the horse (or in gutter-speak, go back into the kitchen). Remember, Rosalie's physical injuries alone were fatal.

And maybe, proving to yourself that it can be good, with the right cooking partner and all the right ingredients.

I agree. Emotionally, there is a world of difference between being attacked by an arsonist and baking with "the right cooking partner". Yes, they both involve heat, but they're not the same thing. And let's not overlook the healing power of being loved, especially by the perfect partner for you. And in Emmett, she has her perfect partner. (This is probably the most mystical event in the Twilight Saga; that she was able to recognize [not everything, but enough] what she needed and act on it within the tiny, tiny window of opportunity that she had.)

We, as fans, are sometimes so tied up in the romance of the Bella/Edward love affair that we tend to overlook the "perfect" match and the intense nature of the relationship between each of the Cullen couples. We all are amused by the robust "physical" nature of the Rosalie/Emmett relationship. But Stephenie Meyer has never indicated that it was any less emotionally intense or mutually satisfying than that of the other Cullen couples. Yes, each relationship has been characterized a bit differently, a different flavor so to gutter-speak, but no less intense.

^^I was thinking that perhaps her vengeance was more cathartic than we could guess. After she killed them all maybe that was enough to make baking an enjoyable prospect rather than a memory of pain.

I liked this point. Again, not ever having experiences anything quite so horrific as betrayal, degradation, sexual and deadly physical assault all wrapped up in one event, my understanding is that much of the emotional (and resulting behavioral) damage comes from mentally reliving the event over and over again. Also, it may take as much as 24 hours for some aspects of short term memory to become long term memories, although, obviously, some memories of the event became permanent. Rosalie didn't really have a chance to do either. Within minutes of finding her, Carlisle started her transformation. The pain, undoubtedly, overrode every other horrific aspect of what happened to her that night.

Then Rosalie's human memories began to fade. She did struggle to cling to her human memories, at least the good ones. I imagine she didn't cling too hard to her memories of her rape. Besides being "cathartic", while the memory of the rape became indistinct, the memories of her vengeance retains its vampire clarity.

Let's also look at the relatively brief time span that it took her to take her vengeance and start her "Emmett" therapy. She transformed into a vampire in late April 1933. For the next year (based on the certainty that Carlisle, Edward, Esme, Jasper and Emmett it will take Bella this long to regain control), she was dealing with blood lust issues. No earlier than May 1934 she began her hunt for her attackers. I am going to assume that, because Emmett was not mentioned as assisting her during the Royce murder, she had not yet met Emmett (after January 1, 1935) or that Emmett was not yet through his newborn phase (no later than December 31, 1936). This means that, rather than having her mental and emotional wounds fester and worsen for many years or even decades, all elements of her "treatment" were in place between eight and thirty-two months after her assault.

There is another aspect to consider when comparing Rosalie's "experience" and response to the "typical" human experience/response. I call it vampire imprinting. Throughout the Twilight Saga, a big deal is made out of imprinting among the werewolves. While the process of "vampire imprinting" itself may be more akin to human "falling in love", the end result is just as strong, just as binding as imprinting for werewolves. Both Carlisle and Edward, I seem to recall, state that once a vampire changes (not into a vampire, but by falling in love) it is permanent. As near as we can tell, all vampire couples, where reciprocal bindings have occurred, are absolutely monogamous, in spite of, up to, millennia of opportunity to do otherwise. We have also seen the unfortunate results of non-reciprocal or unbalanced relationships, principally Irina and Victoria. It seems to me that this vampire imprinting with Emmett was also important in mitigating any residual emotional, mental or behavioral issues relating to Rosalie's rape and murder.

So it seems, in this respect at least, the vampire experience overwhelms the (negative) human experience. Rosalie has half of her happily ever after. Hopefully, she'll find some long term peace in her relationship with Renesmee. After all, when you are unhappy, forever is a long, long time.

Late Add:

Rose had a very tramatic experience which led to her death, but as she described the event, it was as she was having an outer body experience. I wonder if this occurs because it was so long ago and in a previous life? Or maybe she blocked the emotions from her memory. Some part of me believes Rose's hard exterior is a coping mechanism- as if she's in self-preservation mode. I'd like to think that Emmett came into Rosalie's life so she could learn to love and trust again.

Good observation. It could quite possibly be a coping mechanism, blocking emotions and being in a self-preserving mode. However, I think it is more probable that Rosalie has successfully processed these emotions over the years and has fully integrated her experiences into who she is. I tend to think that Rosalie's "hardness" comes from her self-centered nature and her tenacity/determination. (Before I get killed by the Rose fans, the term self-centered is being used in a descriptive, rather than a judgmental manner. We all have to be self-centered, to a degree, to survive. Our point of view has to be self-centered, there is no other mechanism available. Neither of which preclude our feeling or acting out of empathy, principle or sense of family/community. I don't thing that before any decision Rosalie conscious thinks, "Okay, what's in it for me?" If so, she would have voted yes, just to get the drama over. If so, she probably wouldn't have had her talk with Bella.)

[cullengirl]

So it seems, in this respect at least, the vampire experience overwhelms the (negative) human experience. Rosalie has half of her happily ever after. Hopefully, she'll find some long term peace in her relationship with Renesmee. After all, when you are unhappy, forever is a long, long time.

Excellent points, NovaAlbion! I think Renesmee helped closed the whole (maybe a little bit) of wanting to have a child. I didn't find it suprising at all that the first person Bella contacted with needing help with Nessie is Rosalie. Rosalie became a mother figure in nuturing Bella and Nessie during Bella's pregnancy. Is there a such thing as a Vampmother like in a godmother for Nessie?

To add on to the current Rosalie discussion, I always wondered how the fading memory works. Does it happen altogether or does the person have a choice as to what he/she wants to forget? So for Rosalie, for example, does she just block out the horrible time of being assaulted whenever she bakes? Because it does seem like it was a fresh wound when she told Bella her story. Does the fading memory also work for vampire memories?Similarly with Jasper, he seems to remember all of his vampire battles when he told his story in Eclipse too.

[Persephonie]

Rosalie became a mother figure in nuturing Bella and Nessie during Bella's pregnancy.

I can't believe I am reading this!
Rosalie cared ONLY for the baby. How many times has Edward said in Breaking Dawn how she did not give a damn about Bella? This from the 1 vampire able to read her thoughts.... I fail to understand how ANYONE can call Rosalie "nurturing". I will even stretch the "didn't care" comment and say if Bella had not made it back as a Vampire at all, Rosalie would still have in Nessie the very thing she wanted to go back to being human for... a baby, and she would not have sed even 1 tear for Bella or her death.

[cullengirl]

I really do think that having Nessie around really changed Rosalie. I think you also have to realize that Edward really doesn't see the situation clearly himself. He doesn't give credit to Bella most of the times and most importantly, he was totally against having Nessie. I can see his point, but I think he's coloring his own opinion with Rosalie's intention. Having Nessie made Bella and Rosalie bond, they both had the desire to keep the child and help protect it.

[Persephonie]

Clouded or not, I am quite sure Edward heard what he heard in Rosalie's mind. It's not like she could ever keep her thoughts and emotions in check enough to fool him in any way, or even hide anything from him.

Things changed after the birth, thanks to the miracle Edward worked with Bella and her own determination to hang on and pull thru, but during the pregnancy, both women wanted this baby for very, very different reasons.

He was against having Nessie because he and the others had no idea what Nessie was going to be. Everything about that pregnancy was wrong, the speed at which it was growing, how it affected Bella. He knew this was going to end one way... in spite of Bella's romantic notion that she would keep her heart beating long enough for Edward to save her. She didn't.

Bella did die, and it was Jacob's CPR and then Edward's that managed to bring her back.

[bac]

I agree with what you are saying Persephonie, but I also don't think Rosalie was that bad. I think after New Moon with the whole phone call debacle, she realized how much Edward loved Bella. She wouldn't want Edward to be so hurt by Bella being dead.

So this is my opinion, Rosalie wanted the baby more than anything, even at the expense of Bella's life. Bella wanted the same thing. So that doesn't make Rosalie any different than Bella in that sense. However, when Nessie was being born, Rosalie was consumed by her bloodlust and almost "sucked" Bella and she "let" Jacob push her out of the way. Rosalie wanted Nessie alive of course, but I think part of her also knew that she had to let Bella "live" or be changed also for the happiness of Edward and the rest of her family. I agree that Rosalie herself wouldn't have been heartbroken if Bella died, but she wouldn't want the rest of her family being heartbroken. Would she herself do anything to save Bella? Probably not. But she also knew that Bella being alive and a part of the Cullen family was important to her family which would then make it important to her (and her own happiness as well).

[ashleygill03]

[quote="cullengirl"]

To add on to the current Rosalie discussion, I always wondered how the fading memory works. Does it happen altogether or does the person have a choice as to what he/she wants to forget? So for Rosalie, for example, does she just block out the horrible time of being assaulted whenever she bakes? Because it does seem like it was a fresh wound when she told Bella her story.[/quote}


I, unfortunately, can relate to what happened to Rosalie on a slightly smaller scale. Though memories do fade, traumatic memories, in my opinion don't. They can be suppressed, but if you try to block out those types of memories they seep into other areas of your life. From what I have learned, victims tend to go one of two ways... they either bake A LOT or have serious trouble with it. I think the reason it seemed like a fresh wound when she told Bella her story, is that every time you have to relive events of an attack it feels as though you are experiencing it all over again. No matter how much time passes, you can never forget the feelings of that type of trauma. I agree with the point that was made that love helped to heal her.

[BlueStarlight]

Human memories fading: I believe that the weakest ones fade and the strongest ones remain; the ones that make the most psychological and emotional impact would be the ones that the vampires will remember. I have found several friends from highschool in the past 2 years, and when we reminisce, we all remember things differently, some things I'd even forgotten; the big things, tho, we all remember. It makes sense that Rose would remember her rape and murder, Jasper his battles, Carlisle his vampire-hunt, Esme her suicide, Emmet his bear-brawl, and Edward his influenza... these are all the events that lead up to their becoming vampires. We aren't given much of their histories beyond those events, just little snippets. No human can remember every second of his life; we only remember those things that make the biggest connections in our brains, that are connected with the other senses as well. That's why I believe that the weakest human memories fade and the strongest remain.

Along those lines...poor Alice, her story would be SO intriguing... I wonder if she saw her vampire life and THAT'S why she was committed??

As for Rose, I believe that she is the most misunderstood and abused character in the series. We get a view of her from B,E, and J's POVs, and none of them are very partial to her. True, we do understand her better in Eclipse when she tells Bella her own story. The way we feel about someone always clouds our perception of them.

[jenni_elyse]

Very interesting discussions here. I wish I would've been around more over the weekend to be included in them. I'll add my two cents in a minute.

NovaAlbion, I love that you can make the same comment I did 10-20, or so, pages ago and get more reaction. (I'm talking about the "Banging out Dents with Tyler" comment.) Good job on capturing the attention of the masses. I need to learn how you do it some time. Teach me Master Po!

Rather than sharing a Twilight moment, I'm going to share a "Gutter" moment. Whenever I check my e-mail on the Internet, which is what I have to do at work, I get tons of spam because my spam filter only works with my mail program on my personal computer. Well, lately, I've been getting a lot of spam dealing with culinary schools. Every time I read the subject line with culinary in it, I keep thinking, "That's not how you spell culinary. It's spelled Cullenary." Ha ha!

Human Memories Fading: I agree with Ashley as I've also had to deal with this on a much smaller scale and it has affected my life in many different ways! Even though my memory of the event has faded somewhat, the feelings are still just as real as the day it happened. And, having to retell the event stirs up those emotions almost more than I can bear. (I know as I've had to do this a few times recently.)

However, the advantage of being human rather than a vampire, or Stephenie's vampires anyway, is that with counseling I can move past my event. I may never forget what happened to me, but my counselor has assured me that one day it won't hurt because I will be able to deal with the feelings and and emotions surrounding the event. Whereas, Stephenie's vampires are stuck emotionally in the state at which they were turned, so it's harder, almost impossible, for them to grow, just as we saw with the immortal children. The only case in which this isn't the case is with love. Stephenie alluded to the fact that, vampires can fall in love as we've seen, but when they fall, they fall in love forever; it changes the very core of their existence. It's not something they can fall out of! This is made even more apparent in the Midnight Sun partial draft. Also, I guess Marcus is a good example of this. He lost Didyme and now doesn't care about life at all.

So, I guess it makes sense to me why Rosalie is so bitter about what happened to her and why she still feels those emotions even after she became a vampire.

Baby/Pregnancy: I agree with Persephonie, but I also agree with Bac. I think there's a middle ground in which Rosalie has changed a little bit because she saw the consequences of her actions, but at the same time, the only person Rosalie cares about is herself. I mean, I don't even think that she cares enough about Emmett to sacrifice her happiness. How many times was it mentioned that Rosalie would give up everything, including Emmett, to be a mother or human again? I think if Bella would've stayed dead, Rosalie would've been just fine because she had what she wanted--Renesmee. Whereas, Edward wouldn't have been able to look past Bella's death and would've committed suicide or let Jacob kill him, even with Renesmee in the picture. Even though his death would've devastated the family and yes, Rosalie would've felt sorrow for him, it wouldn't matter in the long run because again she had what she wanted--Renesmee.

It's kind of like the whole Snape thing in Harry Potter. JK Rowling said after Deathly Hallows was released that Snape wasn't "good" per se; he just did what he did because of his love for Lily. He still agreed with Voldemort and would've still been part of the Death Eaters had it not been for Lily. So, even though his actions were good, his intentions still weren't.

Anyway, I hope I made sense and this wasn't just one huge incoherent post!