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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:03 pm
by Amanda Beth
I honestly didn't even consider the fact that Alice shouldn't be able to see the fight because of the wolves. And I don't really care because IT WAS AMAZING. The world knew they had filmed a fight scene and I assumed it was Alice's vision -- but I figured it to be some 30 second montage. And it was done so seamlessly that when Carlisle was beheaded the theater gasped and someone even goes "WTF!"(spoken out...not the acronym lol) I knew it wasn't real but my heart was still in my throat.

So bravo to Bill Condon!


Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:28 pm
by Jazz Girl
Believe you me, I was the first person calling out WTF many weeks ago when we first got the TV spot that shows the more in depth battle. I was powerfreaking because my thought was exactly what many of yours was; it can't be a vision because the wolves are there fighting. But, a thought occurred to me about the can she or can't she lie to Aro debate. What if she's not lying? Just as Alice made a decision to change Bella in Volterra in order to save them, what if what we see is what Alice decides will happen in the battle if Aro doesn't change his decisions. It's the outcome they were all terrified of, the very real possibility of being slaughtered by the Volturi. None of them were giving up without a fight and they knew the wolves would fight because of Ness. So, what she's seeing is not the fight that would have actually happened, but the fight that she decides will happen if they do fight. It's a small semantic difference, but a very important one.


Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:39 pm
by December
Now that is a great thought, JG. It makes a lot of sense. And as you say: a small distinction, but one that makes all the difference. (And no, I haven't abandoned the stance of a lifetime -- well it feels like a lifetime! -- and gone to see the film (you know my blind spot there!), but I have been following the convo about it with great interest!)


Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:45 pm
by Amanda Beth
Very good point, Caryn. And I know it's pushing it a bit, but the decision to attack was solely in Aro's hands. The wolves were signed on to fight -- every single one of them. Before that confrontation, when was there ever one single resolve between the entire pack(s)? They have their own mind and then the pack mind and when did those ever really match up? Through New Moon and Eclipse Jacob was always conflicted, even during the newborn army fight. In the first part of Breaking Dawn never once did they all agree on something -- Sam didn't want to go after the Cullens while Jake did, then Jake didn't want them to kill Bella, then the pack split, then there was tension...and finally when they knew the Volturi was coming they all felt the same way.

I don't know, just trying to think it out lol.


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:26 am
by TwilightFan87
Great point Caryn :)

As soon as Carlisle got beheaded I started freaking out and I got progressively more upset throughout the battle. From a marketing stand point I understood it and now that I've calmed down I think the battle scene was pretty good.

Still, I cried way more than I thought I would during this scene even though from as soon as I read about the alternate ending in EW I figured it might be some sort of Alice's vision.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:12 am
by Tornado
I disagree. Yes, Alice could decide to change Bella into a vampire and that changed that future for Bella. However, it was still a real vision of a future that was inevitable because everyone required to make that decision had made it: Alice and Bella. It wasn't just Alice's wishful thinking that made it so, it was the fact that both she and Bella decided it should be so. If Bella had not been willing, she would not have seen that vision.

And would Aro have walked away because Alice had just shown him what she was afraid would happen? No way! A vision of the future is the only thing that will convince Aro not to fight (he's not going to walk away unless he feels his life is truly on the line).

It could be possible that she is using her imagination to fill out the spaces where the wolves would be to make up for the black spots.


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:59 pm
by December
Tornado -- I think I must be being dim about this, but I don't totally get your thought (maybe because I'm really not qualified to be in this conversation at all, since I'm just going on what you've all said about the movie!). But aren''t there three possibilities here?

1) given the choices everyone else has now made, the battle MUST follow the way Alice envisions (no matter what she herself does) unless Aro chooses not to fight.

2) given those existing choices, the battle she envisions is NOT inevitable -- or maybe doesn't happen at all -- but Alice is somehow faking her vision for Aro, ie "lying".

3) given those other choices, the outcome partly depends on Alice's own choices: if she does [something] AND Aro chooses to fight, what she envisions will happen. If not....then perhaps not.

I took JG to be suggesting 3). In which case it's both the case that what Alice shows Aro will happen if he goes ahead and fights (since she's made up her own mind to do [something]) AND that it's not inevitable (because she could still avert that calamity by changing her mind about [something]).

Oh dear. Rereading this ^ I'm not sure even I can follow what I just wrote!!! Does it make any sense to you? (*grin*).

btw, really enjoyed your viva review....


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:20 pm
by Tornado
Yeah, I'm not sure I understand it either ... :)

The point I was really trying to make is it has to be a vision of an actual future event, as Alice usually sees, or Aro will not believe it will definitely happen. Only the realisation that this is the future, about to unfold, will stop Aro. If this is the case, then it is a vision as Alice would normally see them (as she sees the future dependent on everyone's decisions). Therefore, since it is a normal vision of hers, the wolves and Renesmee should not be visible, because she cannot see the outcomes of their decisions because of their natures.

The only ways that she could 'see' the wolves and Renesmee are:

By suggesting what she thinks could happen, rather than using a vision (i.e. making it up; using her imagination). This is what I thought Caryn was suggesting. I don't think that's going to convince Aro, as he would want to see what was really going to happen, knowing that Alice's visions could provide him with that.

By putting forward a 'vision' that she has constructed in order to fool Aro (i.e. lying to him to try and make him back off). This will not work, as Aro can read her every thought and will find out that it is not legit very quickly.

By using her imagination to fill in ONLY the blank spots the wolves and Renesmee leave in her vision. This is the only one I think is plausible, as it means that the vision itself is still real and believable, and will convince Aro, Alice has just painted in wolves with her imagination to try and make up for the blank spots that are there. It's an aesthetic choice, more than anything.


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:45 pm
by December
Ah, I see (I think?). I misunderstood what was at stake in JG's suggestion. If the issue is the inexplicably visible wolves, my third alternative -- which is then probably NOT what JG had in mind -- doesn't solve the puzzle. Because it's still a genuine vision of what might happen, and so shouldn't have wolves in it either. So yeah, the only way the wolves should be in there is because Alice interpolates them to make things clearer for Aro (and the audience): aesthetic tinkering, as you say.

And everything I wrote is just totally irrelevant to the convo. The hazards of reading too quickly....

See, I thought there was a second question in play: viz. is the battle scene what definitely WOULD have happened if Aro hadn't backed down? And I thought that was what JG was addressing (and answering "not necessarily").

Clear as mud? *grin*


Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:11 pm
by Openhome
Then again, it could simply be artistic license used by the art department and director because it worked better than having the wolves disappear and everyone KNOW it's a vision. It would have been a dead giveaway. One of the only places on earth where they will be called on it is here on the Lex, and they knew that.

It worked in the movie. For most everyone, their presence simply didn't make a difference. Only here to the faithful few, and perhaps in SM's notes, did the wolves make any difference at all.

It isn't exactly the first time one of the movies altered canon a bit. Can I hear an :amen: ?

Here is the reason they had to ignore canon: Alice doesn't see what she has never been. The wolves intervention completely eradicated her vision of the Newborn army in Eclipse. There is NO way that she could have seen the battle at all once the wolves were involved.

Now, here is one possible way out I thought of (it is weak since SM made it pretty clear the wolves made all futures invisible to Alice): She was showing Aro HIS future, not just that of the Cullens. Aro had made up his mind to attack. If he hadn't, the future would not have been clear. Perhaps, since his future involved the wolves, and she was showing him his future and his end, this made it possible for her to see them. They weren't a key to that vision, just a part of it. She saw their lives as a side product of showing Aro his.

Thoughts? This topic is right up my ally and I'd love to hear what you all think!