Bella Swan Cullen #2

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akire
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by akire »

mikkib wrote:Does anyone think that Renee took Bella living with her father really well? She sent him a maybe boring but very mature and responsible teenager. Within a few months, the girl almost got killed, then went catatonic, left for days without any word, and got married by 18.
Ha! I NEVER thought of it that way.

I guess Renee is self-absorbed, eclipserox (I'm not sure I would use that word, but I can't think of another way to describe it). For the record, though, there was a brief mention of Renee coming to see Bella when she was catatonic in NM. It was selfish of her to let Bella move.

As for Charlie, I think he seems super-clueless because he just doesn't know how to express it. He hasn't lived with his daughter full-time in, what, 17 years? He just has no idea how to be a dad -- especially to a teenage girl. (I feel like even dads who live with their daughters from day 1 don't always know what to do). Charlie has the best of intentions, I just don't think he knows how to actually DO it. I mean, just when I counted Charlie out... he came out with the whole "promise me you'll say goodbye before you run away w/ Edward" thing!
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mikkib
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by mikkib »

I think Charlie did an ok job. He was definately too absorbed in his life. He was a bachelor for years and wasn't used to it but he really should have skipped some fishing trips and spent time with his daughter. Granted, she would have hated it. I sort of got how he could be like that at first because she came to him a trustworthy and too responsible teenager but as it went on, he should have done more than just ground her, he should have tried to spend some time with her or acted more like a dad. But, given what Edward said about him knowing more than he lead on but in self-denial, I guess he just took things in stride. He just accepted what he couldn't change and moved on. I thought Rennee about forgot her daughter. How do you go from being best friends for 17 years to not visiting your sick daughther ( after the wedding ). It seems like she got her husband and was happy and just sort of moved on.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by Jazz Girl »

SenorGimp wrote:Note to self: in order to regain notoriety and acclaim after losing momentum on your favorite threads, merely remove yourself from them for a few weeks, and then come back in as though you'd never left...
Hahahahaha!! your plan worked to perfection. Missed you too. It's been pretty quiet! Welcome back.
mikkib wrote:Does anyone think that Renee took Bella living with her father really well? She sent him a maybe boring but very mature and responsible teenager. Within a few months, the girl almost got killed, then went catatonic, left for days without any word, and got married by 18.
I think Renee and Charlie did what I wish more parents of mature adolecents would do. They stepped back and gave her credit for essentially raising herself for 16 years. They trusted her judgement, even when she did go a little nuts on them. For individuals like Bella, people who end up parenting their parents as well as themselves, I actually think Bella's reaction was the weird one. Whenever Renee or Charlie tried to step in and do the "parent" thing after leaving to her own devices for so long, she just sort of sat back and took it, not wanting to rock the boat. That is completely Bella. But, let's be honest here. Bella was the parent in these relationships for the most part. She spent every day until she left (and even a little after) taking care of Renee, guiding her through a world that bewildered her. Once Bella moved to Forks, it was kind of like the opposite of when a child moves out to go to university. Even Bella says, at some point you have to let them go out on their own. I don't think it was necessarily self involved or selfish. I just think that was the relationship. Renee knew that Bella was absolutely capable of taking care of herself. And, she wasn't the kind of mother who spent her time overbearing Bella. So, why would she start now. And, as for visiting when she was pregnant, does anyone really believe that Bella didn't expressly forbid her to come? I am willing to bet that she would have forbidden her to visit when she was in the hospital after being attacked by James if she could have. Bella hates being fussed over and taken care of. So, I actually really kind of appreciated the relationship between Bella and Charlie and Renee and the way things played out in that respect. I made a lot of sense to me.
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mikkib
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by mikkib »

I see your point and I could see if it she has been with Renee the whole time. But, I am surprised Renee didnt' freak out more that this all happened as soon as her ex-husband got her daughter. I mean, it's very good for her to trust Charlie and not blame him, I am surprised she didn't. But then, if she had that much respect for Bella and was innately immature anyways, maybe it all makes sense.

I agree that giving them space is good but Bella was spiraling down pretty quickly, ( if you see it from a parent's perspective ). Even adults need interventions of when they are losing control of their lives. I suppose though, since she turned 18 at the start of New Moon, there really wasn't much they could do.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by SenorGimp »

I'm sorry, I must have missed the beginning of this conversation... Are we discussing Charlie's and Renee's lack of parental concern over Bella?
If so, then my response is this..
It makes sense. Plain and simple. As was pointed out, Bella was basically the parent in her relationship with Both of her parents, Renee more so than Charlie, but she still took care of them both, and needed next to nothing from them (I think she needed a ride from Charlie once...).
So, umm, yeah, I really don't know what we're talking about here, but I'll come back later and check it out, and maybe the subject will make more sense to me then...
Or maybe I should read more backlog than just the one page?
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by Jazz Girl »

mikkib wrote:

I agree that giving them space is good but Bella was spiraling down pretty quickly, ( if you see it from a parent's perspective ). Even adults need interventions of when they are losing control of their lives. I suppose though, since she turned 18 at the start of New Moon, there really wasn't much they could do.
Hmmmm.... I totally see your point, MikkiB. First and foremost, my desire to glance over any of Bella's zombie time in NM pretty much makes that the last part of her character that I consider. That is my shortcoming. But, in looking at that time, I kind of think of it as Charlie and Renee almost in shock over her reaction, in a way. Bella was always the parent to Renee, and Charlie had always seen her in that capacity; mature, capable, very adult and in control. So, when she completely freaks, they really are in denial. It is sooooooo far out of character for her that they don't know how to react. And, by the time they do by threatening her with sending her to Jacksonville, she starts putting on the front so she won't have to go. As soon as they see that very shell semblance of normal, they back off, wanting to get beyond it.

The other piece is I honestly think neither of them saw it coming. They knew that Bella and Edward were together, very close. But, I don't think there is any way that either of them had a clue about the "gory details" as Edward calls them, the intense love, devotion, soulmate aspect to their relationship. After all, Bella tells Renee in Twilight that "it's just a crush", which I am very sure she was happy to believe. And, we know that Charlie prefers his own brand of denial. So, even though I am quite sure Bella and Edward spent every possible moment together over that intervening summer, Charlie just looked at it as any other high school fling, most likely to end by graduation. When Edward leaves, he gets a seriously harsh dose of reality.

So, while it may have been more appropriate during Bella's zombie months to intervene, they didn't have a clue that the should, could or what to do. And, once Edward came back, it became a moot point. Bella is, as you point out, a legal adult and her boyfriend and his family were more than happy to take her in if they forced the issue. That's the way I see it, anyhow.
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Lunna-san
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by Lunna-san »

mikkib wrote:Does anyone think that Renee took Bella living with her father really well? She sent him a maybe boring but very mature and responsible teenager. Within a few months, the girl almost got killed, then went catatonic, left for days without any word, and got married by 18.
The problem with Renee and Charlie it's because they are both too absorbed in their own lives to really take sometime and "OMG! My daughter is getting married! She had already ran away from home and her fights with her boyfriend have serious effects on her. WTH is going on?". Because they are used to Bella deal with her own problems. I agree with JazzGirl that most of parents would do the same - step back and let the teenager deal with the problem. But I'm with you mikkib that even adults need eventually, someone to give some guidance.

For me, Bella lacked on guidance all the time. Not only from her own parents, but even from Alice. Alice could see the effect of Bella's actions on her brother and did nothing. Never talked about it. And the same goes to Charlie and Renee. Nobody sat with Bella to see what was going on. Not as parents, but also as friends. If Senor Gimp is correct and Bella is the parent, I recall Bella saying that she used to talk with Renee about her boyfriends. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a mother. But if my child jumps off a cliff, I think I should pay a bit of attention. "shrugs" Maybe it's just me.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by eclipserox »

I think there is a difference between stepping back, realizing your child is very mature, independent and self-sufficient and being too self-absorbed to be a parent.

I think Bella's parents were the latter. Charlie was better than Renee. He did pay attention and at least try to take care of Bella--buying her a car, putting chains on the tires, talking to her about safe sex, etc. I agree with what someone else said, though. He should have taken fewer fishing trips and paid more attention to Bella. He didn't necessarily need to be overbearing. But, would it have killed him to know where his daughter was, what she was doing, spend a little time with her? I know Edward's enhanced hearing and mind reading made this possible, but still, what kind of father doesn't realize that his daughter is spending every night with her boyfriend? And, no matter how determined Bella was to leave for Phoenix in Twilight, most parents I know would have stopped their daughter from taking off in the middle of the night. No matter how hurtful the things she said to him were, she's still his daughter. He's a man, a cop. He really couldn't stop her, make her explain herself, force her to wait till the morning when it's safer to drive?

Renee was practically negligent. Regardless of whether Bella wanted her to visit or wanted to be taken care of, most mothers would visit. Even though Bella is completely self-sufficient, her mother doesn't want to see her, have a relationship with her, spend holidays together? Even adults with families of their own generally have more interaction with their parents than Bella did with Renee.

In the end, despite Bella's being very mature, she was still a minor child who made some mistakes. She spent every night with her boyfriend. She ran away twice-once to Phoenix and once to Italy. She rode a motorcycle. She jumped off a cliff and nearly killed herself. She got married right after high school. She went catatonic, abnormally so, after her boyfriend left. She got lost in the woods. Clearly, she wasn't completely fine when left to her own devices.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by Jazz Girl »

eclipserox wrote:In the end, despite Bella's being very mature, she was still a minor child who made some mistakes. She spent every night with her boyfriend. She ran away twice-once to Phoenix and once to Italy. She rode a motorcycle. She jumped off a cliff and nearly killed herself. She got married right after high school. She went catatonic, abnormally so, after her boyfriend left. She got lost in the woods. Clearly, she wasn't completely fine when left to her own devices.
Maybe our perspectives differ some, but I see this as a pretty general and dismissive way to sum up Bella's experiences. I am always a fan of full context. Yes, Bella spent every night with her boyfriend. But, she spent every night just laying in the same bed with him, being close, not having wild orgies while her father pretended to sleep in the next room. Yes, she ran away to Phoenix and to Italy. But, both times she ran away to try and save someone's life, trying to protect the ones she loves. She rode a motorcycle. Especially for Bella, not the brightest thing in the world to do. But, not illegal, unethical or immoral in any way. I may not think it is the brightest recreational activity. But, strictly speaking, nothing wrong with it. She jumped off a cliff and nearly drowned. At least as far as the cliff jumping, it was something she had both heard of and watched people do and survive without problem. Again, not the smartest thing to do. But, again, nothing illegal, unethical or immoral. She had an emotional breakdown when the person she intended to spend literally the rest of forever with left her, and callously so, telling her he just didn't want her anymore. If my husband walked out on my three days from now with essentially no warning or reason, I don't think I would react all that well either. She got lost in the woods after said traumatic break up with said soulmate. Experienced hikers and outdoorsmen have been known to get lost without the impetus of traumatic emotional breakdowns. She got married right after high school. First, again, don't see anything wrong with this one at all. I probably wouldn't do it. But, it isn't me we're talking about. It's Bella. She wanted to. And, it's not like she snuck off to Vegas (as much as she might have wanted to try) Second, she got married to the young man she was already committed to giving up mortality for and spending eternity with. Comparitively speaking, a much more undoable committment, if push came to shove.

I guess my point is this. Some adolecents, Bella in my eyes being a prime example, earn a little latitude and the right to live their own lives. When you spend your childhood taking care of the people who are supposed to be taking care of you, they kind of lose their right to all of a sudden decide you are a child again when it suits them, to pull parental authority when it is convenient for them. As a parent, I see what Charlie and Renee should have done, could have done differently. But then, I also see what they should have done it differently years before Bella becomes a 17 year old trying to work her way though some serious emotional stuff. You can't just show up at the party 5 hours late and expect the last dance to be perfect.
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akire
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Post by akire »

Jazz Girl wrote: You can't just show up at the party 5 hours late and expect the last dance to be perfect.
^^Amazing post (as usual) but I love that last line in particular!
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