Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Discussion of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn 1

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corona
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:46 am

pennybug84 wrote:Maybe I'm the only one but I have a really hard time picturing Kristen as the Bella of BD. Ever since TW I've had a hard time. I think she did great in NM and EC but for some reason I just have a hard time picturing her. (Maybe I'm confusing the Kristen I have come to "know" through interviews & stuff with the character Bella.) I just really hope that everyone (especially the big 3) can pull it off.
I also thought Kristen looked a lot more like Bella in my mind in Twilight than NM and EC. She looked more natural, simpler, plainer clothes, the hair looked great, and very little noticeable makeup. The two other movies made more extensive use of eyeliner and the hair was changed. Such a simple thing, but I thought the glamming up should have been toned down. She looked great, but it started getting away from the Bella I have pictured in my mind.

I can't wait to see her vampire look, but I guess that will be another two years.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:06 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:...I never had an issue relating to Bella after her change. I completely understood the decision she made, her motivations for doing it. Love that intense, a connection that foundational and deep justifies a lot of behavior that might otherwise be a little odd. Or, as Buffy says, "Love makes you do the crazy." That I totally get. But, in a way, I never really understood why Bella wanted to risk everything for an unknown. Don't get me wrong. I have two munchkins of my own. I know that feeling, that all consuming love and willingness to endure anything for them. Her total about face about everything just seemed a little odd to me. In my opinion, it somewhat lessened the importance of the love betwen Bella and Edward. Portraying that in the film is going to be odd.
First, pardon for the double post. I was going to edit prior remarks concerning Bella during the pregnancy, but I think your comments gets very close to my own. From the story's standpoint, I had absolutely no issue with Bella's decision to change into a vampire. My only concern translating that into a movie is the audiences's potential disconnect visually with seeing such a radical change for the entire Part 2 of BD, but hopefully my fears are unfounded.

Jazz Girl~~The "connection" problem, as you point out, likely begins with SM’s switch from Bella’s POV for the Forever Dawn draft to Jacob’s POV in Breaking Dawn. A lot of background storyline is picked up, which was SM’s intent and mostly works out well, but some of the key questions can only be answered from Bella’s POV. I don’t think SM necessarily made a mistake, as there was probably no happy medium that would be fully satisfying. I am left with having to assume that Bella doesn’t tell Edward everything that is going on in her head, deriving that from Edward’s failed attempt to convince Bella to abort the child and have another one with Jacob. Bella would NEVER consider that as an option, regardless of the circumstances, but especially because the child she was carrying was Edward’s; it wasn’t just some child. Bella likely wouldn’t tell Edward this because she knows how he would take this, and he already loathes himself enough. There is also the issue where Bella’s condition starts really deteriorating when she cannot find any way to keep her food down. What is going on in her mind then? Is she starting to have doubts, because now the odds are increasing that Edward is going to lose not only her but the child as well, leaving him with nothing (and we know exactly where that leads to). This was one of the reasons for Bella wanting to change, knowing that Edward could not live without her. Again, more assumptions we have to make, but it is difficult because we are not in Bella's head and everything is being filtered through Jacob.

Stepping out of Bella’s POV here during such a critical event where she and Edward’s future are literally on the line is more jarring than I had first realized. We have to make a lot of assumptions about motivations based on our knowledge of Bella, but it is very difficult when everything during this time is seen through the eyes of Jacob.

One other brief comment (I always write too much) to illustrate. Edward’s first communication with Renesmee in the womb should have been an overwhelmingly emotional moment between him and Bella. I can picture how incredible this could be portrayed onscreen. Yet in the book, this remarkable moment is seen by Jacob as an act of betrayal. Edward's POV: My God! this child is not a monster, now I see why Bella is doing this, I love her so much! Bella's POV: Edward finally understands, I hated seeing him in pain, I love him so much! Jacob's POV: Edward has gone mad, I have to get away from this lunatic asylum, nothing makes sense!
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Ina EssBe » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Hi everybody, I’m a recent addition to Lex and here I am about to contradict the long-term members ;) - I have no intentions in being controversial, though :)

I loved Breaking Dawn. It’s one of my favourite books (I also love EC) and I can't wait for the movies to come out.

Now to my contradiction ;) - I don’t agree with the point, made by Pennybug84 and Corona, that Edward has been pushed out into the background in BD for an unrelatable (sorry had to make up the word to suit my means) character such as Renesme. There are plenty of 1:1 moments between Edward and Bella in the book, and all of them rather intimate, as I recall (which I like very very much :D ) In my opinion the 3rd part of BD was balanced quite well. Bella and Edward weren’t alone anymore, they had Renesme - she was an equal in their family unit. I think, if Bella and Edward only concentrated on their own relationship, and their baby girl was hardly mentioned, I’d personally question how good the parents they were…

Secondly, Corona reasoned that if it were her, she’d make a choice to fight alongside Bella and Edward because of their love and relationship and not Renesme. But that’s exactly why their ‘witnesses’ couldn't do that. In my opinion, Renesme herself wasn’t even the issue. The danger stemmed from Volturi and their lust for power and domination. Volturi played a political game. They put in place a very thorough strategy. Renesme was only an element in that strategy and the most likely to get Volturi what they wanted. Cullens and others had to become ‘political’ too in order to counter the Italians successfully. So if the purpose was to destroy Renesme, then the tactics to prevent that would be protecting her…

- I hope that makes sense :)

As for my concerns for the movie – I hope they edit the scene where Edward suggests Jacob that if Bella aborts the child, then she can have Jacob’s children. This is one place where I frankly cringed and thought SM went too far. I can see what she was trying to portray here – that Edward would do anything to safe Bella’s life – but I don’t think those, who haven’t read the books, would be as understanding as the fans. It was seriously disturbing.

marielle
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by marielle » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:06 pm

Ina EssBe wrote:There are plenty of 1:1 moments between Edward and Bella in the book, and all of them rather intimate, as I recall (which I like very very much ) In my opinion the 3rd part of BD was balanced quite well.
Hey, first welcome.. I hope you have fun around here...I actually do argee with you on this point...specially in the run up to the Volturi confrontation there are a lot of Bella/Edward moments...

My whole opinion is that even without Renesmee it would have been a fantastic story but I love that she was there...it made things more interesting...
Ina EssBe wrote:I hope they edit the scene where Edward suggests Jacob that if Bella aborts the child, then she can have Jacob’s children. This is one place where I frankly cringed and thought SM went too far.
I can see your point here and I argee that non-readers would understand easily, but I'm dead sure that Rob would be able to pull off the burning man Edward is in that moment and that the comment on Bella having puppies will be so damn emotional that we are all going to need tissues (lots of them...ooh yes and waterproof make-up)...but the line is pivotable in the story, without the sugesting Jacob had no leverage to convince Bella (or at least to try it...)
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corona
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:51 pm

Ina EssBe wrote:Secondly, Corona reasoned that if it were her, she’d make a choice to fight alongside Bella and Edward because of their love and relationship and not Renesme. But that’s exactly why their ‘witnesses’ couldn't do that. In my opinion, Renesme herself wasn’t even the issue. The danger stemmed from Volturi and their lust for power and domination. Volturi played a political game. They put in place a very thorough strategy. Renesme was only an element in that strategy and the most likely to get Volturi what they wanted. Cullens and others had to become ‘political’ too in order to counter the Italians successfully. So if the purpose was to destroy Renesme, then the tactics to prevent that would be protecting her…
Your point makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of preventing the Volturi from expanding their power and domination. The Romanians are on the exact same page, and they have the additional motivations of revenge and a potential return to power. From the standpoint of the other allies, though, this never seemed to me to be enough unless there was some reasonable expectation that the battle might very well go their way. For me, this was always a key point. Absolutely there were concerns about the Volturi grasping for power, but was this a sufficient reason for many of the allies to go all in if defeat was almost certain?

Until Bella was finally able to demonstrate her shield at the end, it always appeared that actually fighting the Volturi was likely going to be a suicide mission. This places the allies in the position of becoming freedom fighters ready to sacrifice themselves for the vampire world, which feels odd to me. I have no issue with this in the human world, we have our “Remember the Alamo!” moments, but it doesn’t seem to fit well in the general vampire world where loyalties are based on purely personal relationships and not on nationalism or idealism or altruism.

I think the concern we both share is in the adaptation to the movie, and not necessarily the book itself. I would just want the producers to ensure that everyone’s motivations are clear and make sense, something that can be easily done.

Incidentally, the purely political motivation could be sufficient if the allies are also portrayed as at least having some hope that they might actually win, even if it is a pyrrhic victory. Depicting strategy sessions onscreen would also allow as much action as you could possibly want. Show the battle as it plays out in their heads during the planning phase. Want to see Jane’s head ripped off by Sam? No problem. How about Carlisle’s reaction if Demetri gets a hold of Esme? Go for it. How about Felix attacking Bella, and she puts her fist all the way through his chest? Can do; the possibilities are endless.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:24 pm

I hope that everything follows the book, as it should wheter or not we like it or not--Melissa added what I call an unnecssary fight seen in New Moon that didn't appear in the book as published.

Even at that, we should be grateful that none of the movies have ended up like the proposed MTV/Paramount version--may as well have had Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear write, direct and produce it. And his daughters, who are fans of the books as Jeremy admitted when Michael Sheen was on TG last year, would rip him big time for screwing it up! Just watch some of Clarkson's own motoring DVDs and some episodes of Top Gear--explosions, cars being destroyed, wreckless driving. Just imagine if Jezza applied similar logic to the Twilight Saga films.

As bad as we fear that things could've been for the first three films, it could've been a whole lot worse.

Ironically, MTV and Paramount are owned by CBS, and Showtime shows the Twilight films on cable/sat. TV. And Showtime is owned by CBS, who own MTV and Paramount. Go figure there...
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by marielle » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:33 am

Chernaudi wrote:Even at that, we should be grateful that none of the movies have ended up like the proposed MTV/Paramount version--may as well have had Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear write, direct and produce it. And his daughters, who are fans of the books as Jeremy admitted when Michael Sheen was on TG last year, would rip him big time for screwing it up! Just watch some of Clarkson's own motoring DVDs and some episodes of Top Gear--explosions, cars being destroyed, wreckless driving. Just imagine if Jezza applied similar logic to the Twilight Saga films.
GOD YES!!! have Jezza write the script...that guy can write brilliantly...and yes his daughters would keep him in check...
I love Clarkson, but I'm sure there will be a lot of unnessecary explosions in it...
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jazz Girl » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:26 am

Well, it appears we have our Renesmee. Nine-year-old Mackenzie Foy has been cast as what we can assume is the final/oldest version of Renesmee Carlie. I'm kind of up in the air about this news. There's an obvious resemblance to both Rob & Kristen, so it's easily believeable that she might be their child. And, we knew they would need to cast an older actress to capture Renesmee's advanced intelligence and speech patterns. However, purely physically, there is a huge difference between a 5-year-old and a 9-year-old. So, it will be interesting to see how they play that.

Also, notice the color of Ms. Foy's eyes. They are a lovely green. Renesmee is supposed to have Bella's beautiful chocolate-brown eyes. So, it makes me wonder... a small story change to create more of a connection to human Edward? Hmmmm....
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:36 am

And then there is the casting of Maggie Grace as Irina. No problem here, although I was kinda hoping for Amanda Seyfried.

I agree that Mackenzie Foy as Renesmee looks like a winner. Hmmm. Very, very interesting. She is 9 years old. I wonder if they are going to keep her age appearance “as is” for the final showdown instead of digitizing her to a younger age? That certainly isn’t canon, but I could see how that really takes a lot of pressure off of potential issues involving imprinting with the general movie audience. It flips everything around and instead of Jacob imprinting on a baby, he is really imprinting on a young woman who is rapidly catching up to him in physical age. No longer any need for bringing in Quil and Claire to help prep the audience. Renesmee suddenly becomes so “super special” that she achieves an otherworldly status that bizarrely makes her relationship with Jacob and the imprinting no longer seem that odd. That’s a pretty major departure from the book, though.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jazz Girl » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:43 pm

While Maggie Grace's casting as Irina didn't thrill me, it didn't bother me either. However, Amanda Seyfried would have. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. But, Amanda, to me, is just too.... Barbie, particularly to play a role involving some serious emotional turmoil where she'll have to really show an age-old turmoil. Personally, I think Maggie's a much better fit.

As for the whole imprinting issue, 5 vs 9 doesn't really make a difference. And, personally, I think it might actually complicate things. The imprinting is going to be an issue, period. Let's just name it. Many people, even some who have read the books, see it as child seduction or child molestation, no matter how you slice it. You have a young man (and yes, Jacob's, especially physically, a man at that point, though I might argue his maturity level) who essentially falls in love with a very young child. Believe me, I understand all of the supernatural forces and fate & destiny arguments. I make them all the time. But, to an outsider (and even some insiders), that's what happens. It doesn't matter that it's not sexual. It doesn't matter that, until she grows up, all he wants to do is be her protector and big brother. It's a man in love with a young girl. So, then add a few years and now Renesmee does start to look a little older, like she's possible approaching those tween/pubescent years. All that does is add fuel to the flames. No, I think they are definitely better off really playing up the brotherly/protector relationship of imprinting and aging her down to Ness' age at the time of the battle, which is roughly 5.
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