~ I loved and agree with all of your 1/18/12 posts, except the last one of course.
To Jazz Girl
Jazz Girl wrote:
While I don't agree with your description of Bella's future, this honestly was the one small thing that allowed me just a moment of sympathy for the mongrel. In essence, Bella chooses a life that he cannot fathom, an existence that he loathes, and does so with his mortal enemy. It is a bit of salt in the wound, so to speak. Of course, Jacob's attitude and behavior about the entire situation tends to bring me right back around again, so it doesn't really last.
Violet Sunlight wrote:
This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. And IMO, I don’t think Bella suffered the most. In regards to Bella and even Leah getting dumped, they at least knew that their beloved was not signing up to kill their humanity and/or be destroyed. Unlike Jacob who gets a double dose
of pain and suffering because he just didn’t get dumped, he has to face the fact that his beloved has chosen to end her humanity and if that was not enough, she has unintentionally chosen to end it tortuously. As the saying goes, “Oh, the humanity!”.
I'm glad we can agree in something even if it just for a moment.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Jacob is first Bella’s soul-mate before he is Renesmee’s. Well, one of Bella’s soul-mates. I must admit, this is very weird. Usually in a story one person has one soul-mate but not in the Twilight Universe and not Bella.
Well, no, even at the end of a long few days of sleep deprivation, love triangle BS, a vampiric battle or two, and a confrontation with the Volturi, even Bella doesn't quite say that Jacob is her soul-mate, too. She says he was her soul-mate in that world where there was no magic, which is basically saying he could have been her soul-mate, not is. Also, when she's talking to Jacob, honesty is not her primary goal. She's trying to break up with him while causing him minimal pain. I think of Jacob's attachment to Bella as made up of a bad crush, lust, friendliness, and trying to protect her from people he sees as unbelievably and always dangerous. To me, although Jacob is a bit supernatural, his feelings for Bella are very human, just complex. Renesme is his soul-mate. We'll have to wait and see if she wants him. I wonder how adolescent rebellion will fit into this future? Could be a story in there.
Wow, this had me thinking for a while. I had to go back to the book and read the whole soul mates reference in context. Thusly, I notice that Bella did NOT say
the soul mates paragraphs to Jacob, she thought
them to herself, and of course, us the readers. Bella had no reason to lie to herself
at this point, especially being that her feelings about Jacob were finally past her denial. In other words, the jig was up, she was NO longer going to be in self-denial about all
that Jacob really meant to her. Hence Bella's epiphany, recognizing Jacob as also being her soul mate, but in that other world without magic/Edward.
~ Firstly, I am responding to your 3 paragraph response to me in your 1/17/12 post. IMO, I think SM is meaning for us to take literally that human Bella had two soul mates. Bella is not the only one that sees this option, Jacob and even Edward and even Charlie see a notion of it too. Usually, when Bella gets something wrong she does so, but on her own, without someone to second her assessments. Also, according to SM, SM had created
a good alternate path/option for human Bella in Jacob. And being that humans are pliable, I think in time Bella and Jacob would have meshed well together. Like I have said in the past, they became best-friends so quickly, and a good friendship is suppose to be the foundation of a marriage. Romance, beauty and physical abilities fade but the friendship between a couple is meant to last forever.
Granted, that was not the original purpose of the Jacob character, but SM made her final amendment to the FD version of the Jacob character, hence, forever changing the final meaning of the purpose for Jacob. Therefore, I don’t think we are meant to consider the FD Jacob, or even the original TW
(meaning when TW was meant to be a standalone book) version of Jacob when we think of all of Jacob’s actions after Edward’s return in NM. IMO, once an amendment has been made to the previous and/or original version, we have to take into account the final amended version and not the former. Otherwise, what’s the point of it ever being amended in the first place?
Furthermore, since human Bella understandably chose Edward, and human Bella, as we know her, has died, IMO, I also like to interpret the offset of what Renesmee means to be as, Bella’s humanity has been transferred to Renesmee. Thusly, the Jacob character and/or the imprinting power has completed his mission in imprinting on Renesmee, a/k/a a form or type of Bella’s humanity, hence the purpose of the final-amended-version of Jacob has come to fruition.
Tornado wrote:Yes, but Jacob is reconciled to all that in the end. In fact, he half acknowledges how incorrect his previous viewpoint was by saying, "I'll love you the right way now." He finally recognises that the way he loved her before was wrong. It's the closest he comes to admitting he made a mistake.
IMO, Jacob is NOT reconciled to the idea of healthy
Bella choosing to be changed into a vampire. IMO, Jacob IS reconciled to the fact that, though the vampire’s humanity may be dead, the vampire is a different being with similar human attributes deserving of the happiness that humans enjoy and due to the imminent death circumstance, dying
human Bella will need to be changed to prolong her existence on earth, because her humanity is dying anyway. Thusly, Jacob IS reconciled to the idea that he will have to approve, condone and consent to Bella’s wish to live with the burden/handicap of thirsting/craving for human blood forever (or a form of forever) so she can continue to exist here on earth. Otherwise, without the imminent death circumstance, IMO, Jacob would NOT have consented to the change at all.
Tornado wrote:He has to be, seeing he imprints on a child that he would consider, if he continues to hold that viewpoint, to be half dead. So he has to recognise that Bella's change is not the death he considered it.
IMO, in regards to Renesmee’s vampire attributes
, the way Jacob sees Renesmee is, just like when a parent and family choose to love a handicap child, it does NOT mean they consented, condone and/or approve of the handicap that has befell their child and therefore they love the child. On the contrary, they love the child in spite of the handicap they were born with, and they make the necessary adjustments for the child to be comfortable and thrive.
Tornado wrote:But he still suffers. And suffers because of love. And his pain will never lessen, nor will he ever get over it. That's quite a cross to bear. Yes, his suffering is greater than any by the end of the series, because even Leah has the potential to move on. Marcus doesn't.
IMO, Marcus does NOT suffer because of the loss of romantic love due to rejection from his beloved. Marcus suffers because of grief
, unceasing vampire grief, because of the literal death/destruction/loss of his respective beloved’s entire person
. IMO, Marcus does suffer the most in regards to grief and the length of grief. At least the Romanian vampires have vengence to offset the grief. However, Jacob suffers the most in the rejection of the romantic affections of his beloved, Bella, that goes hand in hand with
the grief of her inevitable torturous death of her precious humanity. IMO, Marcus’ pain and Jacob’s pain are in different categories. For me, it is like
comparing a poor, diseased starving child in Africa to an American widow. Yes, both suffer tremendous pain and loss but in different ways, hence different categories.
corona wrote: So, I guess I don't really sympathize much with Jacob because I never bought that. It didn't make much sense at the literary level as it flew in the face of the original premise, which was a) B&E's extraordinary bond with each other and b) the license it gave them to act and feel the way they do. Giving that freely to Jacob as well undermines that premise, so I just rejected it. Jacob does not have that license (how could he? it's not possible!), so he is in violation of the Twilight Standards and Practices Act of 2006, Subsection 13.2, of the True Love and Soul Mate Exemption Code that bans all extreme behavior in the pursuit of Love, with a grandfather clause exempting any Supernatural Love established prior to 2006. Bella and Edward are grandfathered in, Jacob is not. Someone needs to arrest that boy.
Again, your comments have me cracking up. Hilarious.
However, I disagree. Jacob does so have the license to pursue Bella though Edward got to her first. Bella is human first before she is a vampire. One has to remember, there is a very good reason why a human/vampire relationship can’t last in the long run. The human can’t keep up with the supernatural and the vampire being was not design to handle the grief of the death of their beloved at all. This kind of a relationship is just not feasible for the parties involved. And Jacob knows this, though Edward is in denial of this fact until the end of EC.
In any event, IMO, being that SM created Jacob as a soul mate for human Bella, then it stands to reason, Jacob has the right to do all he has to do to win his natural claim on human Bella. And SM also created Bella to partly love Jacob romantically back as well. Therefore, IMO, because SM has interrupted the natural flow and order of the natural world with supernatural beings and so on, and again, IMO, it stands to reason, we all would have to put up with the natural version (Jacob) of what human Bella was suppose to have IF
the supernatural world did not exist and especially after the supernatural being (Edward) understandably threw Bella and
his claim away for Bella's own good and consequently, putting things back into the natural order of things. Furthermore, it is very understandable to me, that Jacob is NOT happy or cooperative when Bella’s romantic affections are snatched from him, albeit by Bella herself, so Bella can understandably go back to and/or accept her other soul mate Edward again. This is why, double romances and/or soul mates never work. When you say YES to one, by definition, you are saying NO to the other. Another, painful lesson young Bella will have to learn.
corona wrote: 4) I accepted Jacob's extreme behavior as being entirely within the realm of human experience. Bella and Edward's bond and the intensity of that bond is outside the realm of human experience. I found Jacob's behavior completely recognizable. I read about men who behave the way he does in the news, and the results are tragic. I don't say that to slam Jacob, I say that because I can't find the foundation to support the view that Jacob simply cannot help himself and that he is driven beyond any human's ability to restrain themselves. There are a lot of men in prison that use the same rationale.
Your point is understandable to me, IF
we are talking about Jacob coming in between human-Bella and a human-boyfriend/fiancé/husband. But, IMO, this is not a fair comparison, because Edward is a vampire-boyfriend/fiancé/husband, and the men in prison that you refer to, in your illustration, did what they did without ever rationally and legally thinking of the safety of their victim(s) wellbeing. Unlike Jacob, who is trying wholeheartedly to SAVE
Bella's humanity, all the while, she has romantically rejected him and
has voluntarily signed up to end/kill her healthy humanity and all within weeks of her confessing her plan/wishes to Jacob. IMO, Jacob is a hero in trying to save Bella's humanity, though he failed and human-Bella died. But, IMO, thankfully Bella's humanity was transferred to Renesmee.
corona wrote: To use December's great phrase, B&E's story is one of "romantic possession". Jacob's story is one of "romantic obsession". One practical difference between the two is that Edward hated to see Bella in pain of any kind and never forgave himself for causing her pain. There was no difference between Bella being hurt and Edward being hurt (and that went for Bella as well). Jacob is more than willing to hurt Bella at any time, any place, under any circumstances. Twisting the knife in Bella's heart is something Jacob gets really skilled at. The fact that nothing good comes from it is irrelevant to him, it just means he needs to twist a little harder. Because, you know, he loves her and she'll thank him in the end.
I strongly disagree. Speaking for myself, I can’t place more weight in Jacob’s intentional verbal
assault to save Bella’s humanity, than all of Edward’s seriously caused physical
and mental (NM catatonic depression) pain and injuries he puts Bella in, albeit unintentionally. In real life, when I see a hurt/injured female, and it is made known to me that all the continuous
physical injuries I am seeing are being caused by her beloved, my first conclusion is that the female is in an abusive relationship that she can’t or won’t get out of for her own good. Consequently, IMO, the female's loved ones should get involved immediately BEFORE it is too late. And for me, the word obsession sure does come to mind in the scenario I just mentioned.
corona wrote: My God, he contemplated murdering Nessie. THAT is where that type of obsession will take you. That is where it has taken many a young man and where it has ruined countless lives. To not have Jacob show remorse was a mistake. It sends the message that his contemplation of murder was merely a literary device to demonstrate just how much he loved Bella. He loved Bella so much, he would kill her only child. It sends chills down my spine. Here I was, ready to forgive and embrace Jacob, and he basically told us that no forgiveness is needed since there was nothing to forgive. I have to stop there, I am beginning my two-minute hate on Jacob again.
I could be misunderstanding you, and my apologies if I am. I know I am probably going to get thrown under the bus for saying what I am about to say. But, I just feel compelled to say it.
Speaking for myself, if SM would have had Jacob apologize for contemplating the murder of Nessie, Bella's only child, then I would have needed an apology from Edward and from the Cullens who voted YES to have healthy Bella's humanity
murdered/destroyed. After all, they would be murdering/destroying Charlie's and Renee's only child and all in the name of wanting to preserve the romantic couple's love.