Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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December
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Re: Explorations

Post by December » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:18 pm

Corona wrote:I thought New Moon was brilliant, but then I have never revoked B&E's license to love each other to the extremes that they do.

In my opinion, what Stephenie was asking of us was to extend that license of extreme behavior to Jacob as well, because of his extreme love for Bella and the extreme circumstances he found himself in.

Yep, exactly. As she herself insists (EC FAQ possibly?).

The funny thing is that although, like you, I'm thoroughly irritated by that "second love story that sits right beside the primary love story, and in some ways rivals it in importance", I have no difficulty accepting Jake's extreme behaviour (and Stephenie's justifications for it). I don't LIKE it, but I can empathize with it. I guess maybe it is that death thing again (*grin*). For Jake, it's all a desperate gambit to save Bella's life; and although he's mistaken...well he's also not totally mistaken. To put it another way: for me, Jake's frantic determination to stop Bella rushing headlong to her doom (as he sees it) is a subtle reminder that this is partly how Stephenie sees it too. That it's partly how we ought to see it. Or at any rate, that this is how I choose to see it, because I find it jolly romantic -- and Jake is doing his obnoxious bit to keep this aspect of Edward and Bella's love story clearly in view!

Definitely didn't mean to bang about the zombie analogy, though! -- nothing could really be less appropriate to Stephenie's story: it's the essence of her mythos that these questions of life and death, good and evil, mortality and immortality are taking place on the most ethereal, incorporeal, un-gothic plane imaginable. The Danse Macabre is absolutely the wrong imaginative model. (Showroom dummies maybe comes a little closer...). Clearly it's corruption of the soul not the body which is exercising Jake, Stephenie et al.

2) I rejected the fundamental premise of Jacob's extreme behavior. Namely, Bella is going to literally die or virtually die at the hands of Edward. We essentially have two competing visions within the story, Bella's vision and Edward's vision. Edward's vision begins to take hold in Eclipse, but it really needed a follow-through in BD to buttress it. BD is Bella's vision come to fruition. And despite the subtext of Eclipse and the suggestion of death themes, Bella has consistently proven to be in the right throughout the entire series, that she and Edward had to be together and that they would be fine.

If Bella is right and Edward is wrong, and if Jacob shares Edward's views, then Jacob is wrong as well. It can't be both ways, with Edward being wrong and Jacob being right.

If BD had taken on a darker tone and had become a blended form of both Bella's and Edward's vision of their future together, then I think Jacob would have become much more sympathetic (for me, at least). It really helps to be right on some points.

Ah yes, well. You're absolutely right about the illogic here. Either they're both wrong or they're both right. I guess I just side with Edward. As Stephenie herself told us (EC signing Highlands Ranch 2007) "If you want to know how SM rather than Bella, Edward and Jacob feels about something, generally listen to what Edward is saying: because he tends to see the world the same way I do...."

Does BD's vision of Bella's future fly in the face of what Edward (and ex hypothesi, Stephenie) believes? Absolutely. One reason, IMO, why Edward isn't really there in that book. I just don't think he ever bought it. Not from the moment he sat down with Stephenie and explained where he was going in NM. The whole arc of NM and EC is the working out of Stephenie's dawning recognition of the truth of what Edward has been trying to tell her and Bella: you have no idea what you're asking.

Of course, his truth is a partial one, which is why he gets things so terribly wrong in NM. There on Stephenie's other side is Bella, doggedly reminding her that her love for Edward irrevocable: an otherworldly passion as profound and indelible as Edward's. So that all Edward's persuasive powers serve only to pull Stephenie in two. By the time she's written her way through to the end of EC, she would give anything to bestow on Bella the wholesome, natural joys she could have with this lovely earthy boy who has sprung up in her head, ready-made for Bella. But she can't. ("And it's killing me..."). Stephenie can no more change the truth about Bella than she can change the truth about what being a vampire means ("Any one of us would stand in fire for it. Burn for as many days or centuries as were necessary...."). Which is a truly bittersweet conclusion: romantic, yes, but not the fairy-tale HEA BD offers us.

Do I believe that, at some level, the sober place EC leaves us reflects what Stephenie really felt about Bella's choice by the time she wrote it? Well, yes. Why else would Jake have insinuated himself into her imagination, her story, her heroine's affections? Did Stephenie consciously recognize the radical departure this represented, and deliberately turn her back on it for that earlier, more insouciant storyline (ie BD)? Not necessarily. Imagination is notoriously self-willed -- and there are many, many gradations of authorial self-awareness.

But I do think Edward recognized what was happening, and voted with his feet....

That actually isn't Jacob's problem, that's a story problem, so I'm being a little unfair with him.

Hahahahaha. It is hard to keep the two straight sometimes, isn't it? Especially given the way these characters have of walking off the page and talking to us (and Stephenie)....
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:24 pm

corona wrote:And when Bella tells Jacob she would rather Edward wasn't rich or good-looking? Didn't believe it for a second. I know what she is trying to say, but it isn't Edward's personality that initially attracts her.
While certainly Bella notices that Edward is good looking (duh!) I do think that she would still have been attracted to him without this. As much as she loves to look at him it is always a reminder to her that she is (so she believes) unworthy of him.
corona wrote:I don't believe in love triangles or having two "soul mates". If they truly exist, I don't understand them at all. The element of committment is completely missing, it has to be missing in a love triangle. If there is no committment, then where is the love? I don't get it. I never got King Arthur and Guinevere and Lancelot. Stories about unfaithfulness and adultery are ugly and ultimately boring to me. Once it comes up, my attitude is basically "What's the point with this story, I really don't care anymore." I lose respect for the characters, and therefore I don't care what happens to them, so I don't want to waste my time reading or watching their story anymore.
I believe that there can be a few people out there who could qualify as "soul mates" for us, but my main contention with Bella having soul mates in both Edward and Jacob was the fact that they were complete opposites. The level of love she felt for Jacob, it seemed to me, would have to be siginificantly less than the love she had for Edward, so that it should be no competition at all, considering the depth of her love for Edward. I don't think I'd have a problem with the love that she did feel for Jacob in Eclipse, as I can understand that what he offered appealed to the less responsible aspect of her nature (another thing that demonstrates that it's hardly soul mate material!) and I would have bought it entirely if SM hadn't tried to shove the "soul mate" line down our throat. Bella loves Jacob, I get that, but the entire representation of their love is that it is an immature, throw-responsibility-to-the-wind, rebound love affair, hardly soul mate material.
corona wrote:Bella presses against that line, although she doesn't quite cross it, remaining totally committed to Edward. I think she should have excersised more restraint in what she told Jacob at the end of Eclipse, and I think she should have defended Edward and her own decision more.
Absolutely. How much of that is Bella not wanting to hurt Jake in that conversation I don't know. I did like that scene better in the movie, if only for the line that Bella gives after Jake says that Edward's not as perfect as she thinks he is, and she says, "I know who he is." That does a lot in explaining the depth of Bella's relationship with Edward, in that she knows he's not perfect, but she loves him in spite of these imperfections, and really knows him and her feelings for him.

corona wrote:If Bella is right and Edward is wrong, and if Jacob shares Edward's views, then Jacob is wrong as well. It can't be both ways, with Edward being wrong and Jacob being right.
Absolutely.
corona wrote:Think about it. Jacob stays away for two months. Then he shows up and starts with the manipulation for one month. Then the explosion of soul mate, part deux. Then he is gone for two months again. Then he shows up and wants to kill Edward. He leaves. Three weeks go by and he shows up and wants to kill Edward again. Not much of a love story from Jacob's side, and it isn't exactly his fault either.
I think some of that is Jake trying to do the right thing and stay away, but he's too immature to keep that commitment, especially when Bella is deliberately seeking him out.
corona wrote:I found Jacob's behavior completely recognizable. I read about men who behave the way he does in the news, and the results are tragic. I don't say that to slam Jacob, I say that because I can't find the foundation to support the view that Jacob simply cannot help himself and that he is driven beyond any human's ability to restrain themselves. There are a lot of men in prison that use the same rationale.
I agree. It's another reason why I always thought that theirs was the unhealthy love.
corona wrote:To use December's great phrase, B&E's story is one of "romantic possession". Jacob's story is one of "romantic obsession". One practical difference between the two is that Edward hated to see Bella in pain of any kind and never forgave himself for causing her pain. There was no difference between Bella being hurt and Edward being hurt (and that went for Bella as well). Jacob is more than willing to hurt Bella at any time, any place, under any circumstances. Twisting the knife in Bella's heart is something Jacob gets really skilled at. The fact that nothing good comes from it is irrelevant to him, it just means he needs to twist a little harder. Because, you know, he loves her and she'll thank him in the end.
Absolutely.
corona wrote:Going back to his initial imprinting scene and his behavior afterwards, I found it to be unbelievable. If Jacob's story is one of obsession, then he should have realized that afterwards and that he was saved from a tragic ending by the grace of God (or by the grace of SM, or happenstance, or what have you). That would be a humbling experience and an eye-opening one. Instead, we see a Jacob that continues to be unable to help himself with his current behavior. Jacob shows no signs of guilt for his prior behavior. The only explanation I can come up with is that SM ascribes to him a form of that "romantic possession", which essentially elevates his love for Bella to the level of B&E. Yes, Jacob is Bella's "natural" choice, but Bella is something much more to Jacob.
I don't know if that's so much the case, or if it's just the result of story telling in the first person. We don't know what went on while Bella was transforming. Could Jacob have done something like that at that point? Could Jacob have done something like that, even later to Bella, but the page count in BD was already so huge that the editor said, "No time for that!" Quite possibly. I think SM put in what she could, but I think there could have been something like that in the story, but we just didn't get to see it. Although I would need confirmation from SM before I will believe that entirely.
corona wrote:Jacob makes the statement, "But I’ll love you the right way now. There’s finally a balance. We both have people we can’t live without." I take that as Jacob saying that he is glad that he can now love Bella the right way, now that there is a balance in both of their lives. His attitude changes due to events, not due to a new level of self-awareness and maturity, and Jacob knows this and tells Bella this. That is consistent with the theme of Jacob being unable to help himself due to his extraordinary love for Bella, and yes, a love that is beyond mere human judgment.
I think that statement is a sign of a new self awareness and maturity that is developing, but we just don't get to experience it because Bella's just become a vampire and that's a much more interesting story to focus on at the time.
corona wrote:If I have one criticism of Stephenie's story, it is that. I hope everyone understands that I love Stephenie's story, but in this one aspect I think it was absolutely wrong not to have Jacob show some remorse. If I could change anything myself, I would change that one thing. Everything else can stay in, but I feel compelled to add just a few sentences where Jacob shows us that he understands he almost went off the deep end and did something wrong. My God, he contemplated murdering Nessie. THAT is where that type of obsession will take you. That is where it has taken many a young man and where it has ruined countless lives. To not have Jacob show remorse was a mistake. It sends the message that his contemplation of murder was merely a literary device to demonstrate just how much he loved Bella. He loved Bella so much, he would kill her only child. It sends chills down my spine. Here I was, ready to forgive and embrace Jacob, and he basically told us that no forgiveness is needed since there was nothing to forgive. I have to stop there, I am beginning my two-minute hate on Jacob again.
I agree. Whatever the reason for leaving it out, whether it was editing, page number constraints, narration constraints, or just that it never happened, it was a mistake to leave Jacob's character unresolved like that. It is my major problem with the saga.
Last edited by Tornado on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Hello again! I'm trying to post more regularly, not so much to catch up on that way. EDIT: Didn't realize I was double-posting with 2 other people. This came between Corona's and December's latests.

To add my thoughts to the who-suffered-the-most debate (the one no character really wants to win):
Violet Sunlight wrote:When I say, “suffered romantically MORE than anybody else in this fairy tale”, I mean, suffered MORE at the hands of their respective beloved.


I'm going with Violet Sunlight's definition of romantic suffering, because I think she started that discussion. Corona, I really liked your analysis of this. It mirrored some of my own thoughts, especially related to duration of suffering. I agree that Marcus certainly suffered the longest, poor guy, and I think that whatever is left of his personality actually sides with the lovers. But he didn't suffer at Didyme's hands, so for me, Leah wins this, based on suffering greatly and of long duration at the hands of her beloved, including reading his thoughts of pity for her and wishing she could somehow not be around all the time. Remember, even Jacob described them as really in love, whereas he's never sure that his 6-month crush, or whatever, with Bella was requited.

Although this whole reminds me of something I brought up a while ago: Especially from the outside, how can you quantify love, or romantic suffering? These are the big questions. I love how Openhome, December, and Violet Sunlight brought in Buddha, the Serenity Prayer, and Tennyson. I wonder what Marcus thinks of "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all"?

And now we return to Jacob. Things always seem to come back to Jacob. We really could use a wolfie smilie.
Jazz Girl wrote:So, while I didn't expect him just to get over it, I certainly had some expectation that he act like a man in the face fo the situation, rather than a pouting, petulant child.
I remain firmly in the mostly-forgiving-Jacob camp. I agree with you all on most points about Jacob being generally wrong (I'll detail exceptions below). But this is all happening so fast for him (becoming a werewolf and falling in love and finding out about vampires, etc) and he's so young and he really comes so far, even if not as far as we like. And I find him so essentially lovable. (I may have personal bias - as I've said elsewhere, my son looks a lot like a younger Taylor.) Jacob is 16, and 16 year old boys are right at that cusp where sometimes they act like grownups, and sometimes they act like petulant children. Not admirable. But human.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Jacob is first Bella’s soul-mate before he is Renesmee’s. Well, one of Bella’s soul-mates. I must admit, this is very weird. Usually in a story one person has one soul-mate but not in the Twilight Universe and not Bella.


Well, no, even at the end of a long few days of sleep deprivation, love triangle BS, a vampiric battle or two, and a confrontation with the Volturi, even Bella doesn't quite say that Jacob is her soul-mate, too. She says he was her soul-mate in that world where there was no magic, which is basically saying he could have been her soul-mate, not is. Also, when she's talking to Jacob, honesty is not her primary goal. She's trying to break up with him while causing him minimal pain. I think of Jacob's attachment to Bella as made up of a bad crush, lust, friendliness, and trying to protect her from people he sees as unbelievably and always dangerous. To me, although Jacob is a bit supernatural, his feelings for Bella are very human, just complex. Renesme is his soul-mate. We'll have to wait and see if she wants him. I wonder how adolescent rebellion will fit into this future? Could be a story in there.
December wrote:We look at the Stephenie's vampires with human eyes and are bowled over by their unearthly beauty, grace and allure; werewolves look right through that to the essential monstrousness -- almost a sort of moral putrefaction, as viscerally disgusting to them as the vampire's scent. Think zombies, decomposition, deformation -- that is what Bella is proposing to become, in Jake's eyes. Or so I've always sort of imagined it.
Whoa. I once tried to describe how I thought we were meant to see the vampires as parasites, but your imagery is much more visceral, disgusting and great. Moral putrefaction - basically what's wrong with Aro.
Jazz Girl wrote:It is why Jacob's flat refusal to, to steal a bit of a phrase if I may, judge them by the content of their character and not the sparkle of their skin, cuts me to the core. He is prejudice, plain and simple.
Jazz Girl wrote:And therein may lay my handicap in this arena. Nothing within the text ever indicated to me that Jacob found their look to be loathsome, just that he assumed (oh there's that word )that they were all vicious thoughtless soulless animals. After all, he does accuse her of being only attracted to Edward's looks, thus acknowledging that he can't be completely repulsive.
December wrote:it's not like the werewolves see them through an actual visual filter
Um, actually I think they do see them through an actual visual filter. Doesn't Jacob somewhere describe how watching the vampires hurts his eyes, how they seem crystalline to him, hard and sharp? And all the wolves seem overwhelmed by their response to vampiric scent, strong and too sweet - maybe like putrefaction. I can understand Jazz Girl missing this though - don't you skip BD Book 2? This helps me understand the wolves' group reaction to the vampires. They look wrong, they smell wrong, they move wrong, and they usually kill people. The wolves have very little more actual knowledge about vampiric inner experience than they get from Hollywood. They can't know about eternity wearing on you, or vampiric mating, or eternally thirsting for something that's so easy to get (lots easier to hunt humans than animals, we're so slow and our sense are so dull). They can't know about retaining the elements of personality. They are completely prejudiced about the vampires, which comes from their little bit of knowledge. As they gain knowledge, Jacob especially starts to relax a bit and make concessions. He leads the pack in trusting the Cullens, except maybe for Seth. He's able to acknowledge that Edward loves Bella, which had to be huge for him. I suspect that when Jacob asked Bella if she was attracted to Edward's looks, he was drawing on his pre-wolfie memories.

Now, corona's views on why he doesn't give Jacob license:
1) I rejected the love triangle itself.
I didn't reject it. I don't like it, and I think Bella should have done more to stop it, but triangles sometime happen. I think this could be a furtherance of December's conversation between Stephenie and Bella in Stephenie's head:

SM: Bella, I need you to show your struggle in leaving Jacob alone more. I know it's hard on the inside, but readers need to see it on the outside.

B: But that will hurt Edward, Steph. I can't do that.

SM: Our readers need to see you struggle with your choice to kill off your humanity. Come on, this is big! You don't want teenage girls out there devalueing their lives!

B: Of course not! But I can't hurt Edward, it kills me. I mean it REALLY kills me. You already made me turn down his proposal. What are you doing to him - what are you making me do to him? I didn't think you were a mean kind of author!

SM: If the reader doesn't see it, it might as well not happen, Bella. You have to show us that you value your humanity, or we won't believe it. I'll take care of Edward, don't worry.

B: Oh, for the love of .... All right. But I'm NOT kissing him.

2) I rejected the fundamental premise of Jacob's extreme behavior.
What fundamental premise, that his love for Bella is supernatural? I'll agree with you there, but I think you mean something else.
3) I didn't see the love, because I didn't experience the love.
I saw it, but at the level of a slowly growing and developing crush, that became an unhealthy obsession with trying to save an adult from her own choices. Having said this, I am now trying to decide whether I think of this as a crush, or a stalking. Maybe one morphed into the other at some point. I think the white-hot intensity is only partly about love of Bella - I think the other part is hatred of Edward.
4) I accepted Jacob's extreme behavior as being entirely within the realm of human experience.
Yup. He looks a bit unstable.
corona wrote:I am not going to deny that love wasn't there, there was a huge amount. But there are aspects of young love (and first loves especially) that have a very dark and poisonous side. Most of us realize that when it is happening, that we are holding on when it is over, that nothing good can come from it, and even though it is agonizing we know we have to let go. It is no longer healthy for anyone. It feels like a betrayal at first and you want to fight harder, but it just makes things worse.
Yup. Sometimes, you have to have the experience of things getting worse, before you can teach yourself to stop fighting.
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Re: Explorations

Post by December » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Smitten by Twilight wrote:They look wrong, they smell wrong, they move wrong, and they usually kill people.

Heh. I don't know why, but that totally tickled me.


B: Oh, for the love of .... All right. But I'm NOT kissing him.

CLASSIC!!!!

Okay, that whole exchange has to be added somewhere....
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:46 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Although this whole reminds me of something I brought up a while ago: Especially from the outside, how can you quantify love, or romantic suffering? These are the big questions. I love how Openhome, December, and Violet Sunlight brought in Buddha, the Serenity Prayer, and Tennyson. I wonder what Marcus thinks of "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all"?
Once my brother, after breaking up with a girl, said to me, "Do I listen to the Eurythmics or Yes?" Because the Eurythmics sang just that, "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all", but Yes sang, "Owner of a lonely heart, much better than the owner of a broken heart." I think that Marcus would probably favour Yes over the Eurythmics. For that matter, I think Edward might too! Jacob? I think he'd sing, "I Didn't Mean it" ;) .
smitten_by_twilight wrote:I remain firmly in the mostly-forgiving-Jacob camp. I agree with you all on most points about Jacob being generally wrong (I'll detail exceptions below). But this is all happening so fast for him (becoming a werewolf and falling in love and finding out about vampires, etc) and he's so young and he really comes so far, even if not as far as we like. And I find him so essentially lovable. (I may have personal bias - as I've said elsewhere, my son looks a lot like a younger Taylor.) Jacob is 16, and 16 year old boys are right at that cusp where sometimes they act like grownups, and sometimes they act like petulant children. Not admirable. But human.
Yeah, I can understand most of Jacob's responses from this point of view. It's just his inability to acknowledge remorse on any level for the hurt he causes the woman he loves that makes me furious with him.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:Well, no, even at the end of a long few days of sleep deprivation, love triangle BS, a vampiric battle or two, and a confrontation with the Volturi, even Bella doesn't quite say that Jacob is her soul-mate, too. She says he was her soul-mate in that world where there was no magic, which is basically saying he could have been her soul-mate, not is. Also, when she's talking to Jacob, honesty is not her primary goal. She's trying to break up with him while causing him minimal pain.
Yes, but she never says that to his face. The comment about soul mates she says in her head, not out loud, which lends credence to the opinion that she really thinks it. Now, it could be her emotions getting in the way, or it could, as I said earlier, be SM trying to sell us the "two soul mates" line. I don't buy it, and it seems I'm not alone!
Jazz Girl wrote:And therein may lay my handicap in this arena. Nothing within the text ever indicated to me that Jacob found their look to be loathsome, just that he assumed (oh there's that word )that they were all vicious thoughtless soulless animals. After all, he does accuse her of being only attracted to Edward's looks, thus acknowledging that he can't be completely repulsive.
Yes, but he comments about Edward's good looks after Bella says that she kisses the "eagle", as it were, because they're "good-looking birds". His comment about looks is only in response to her raising the subject. Admittedly, the segment from Jacob's POV on SM's website does say that, at the time of Twilight, Jacob could acknowledge that Edward was good looking, but that was before the werewolf hormones kicked in. It does seem that the wolves see and smell them differently from humans, so Edward probably does just look all angles and shine to Jake at that point, and he's not interested in looking any deeper than that.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:Um, actually I think they do see them through an actual visual filter. Doesn't Jacob somewhere describe how watching the vampires hurts his eyes, how they seem crystalline to him, hard and sharp? And all the wolves seem overwhelmed by their response to vampiric scent, strong and too sweet - maybe like putrefaction.
Yes, that's in BD book 2.
smitten_by_twilight wrote:Yup. Sometimes, you have to have the experience of things getting worse, before you can teach yourself to stop fighting.
Yes, it's a little like an addict. They have to acknowledge they have a problem before they have any hope of recovery. Hm, the drug theory again ...
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:22 am

To December ~ I loved and agree with all of your 1/18/12 posts, except the last one of course. :roll:

To Jazz Girl ~
Jazz Girl wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. And IMO, I don’t think Bella suffered the most. In regards to Bella and even Leah getting dumped, they at least knew that their beloved was not signing up to kill their humanity and/or be destroyed. Unlike Jacob who gets a double dose of pain and suffering because he just didn’t get dumped, he has to face the fact that his beloved has chosen to end her humanity and if that was not enough, she has unintentionally chosen to end it tortuously. As the saying goes, “Oh, the humanity!”. ;)
While I don't agree with your description of Bella's future, this honestly was the one small thing that allowed me just a moment of sympathy for the mongrel. In essence, Bella chooses a life that he cannot fathom, an existence that he loathes, and does so with his mortal enemy. It is a bit of salt in the wound, so to speak. Of course, Jacob's attitude and behavior about the entire situation tends to bring me right back around again, so it doesn't really last.
I'm glad we can agree in something even if it just for a moment. :)

To smitten_by_twilight ~
smitten_by_twilight wrote:
Violet Sunlight wrote:Jacob is first Bella’s soul-mate before he is Renesmee’s. Well, one of Bella’s soul-mates. I must admit, this is very weird. Usually in a story one person has one soul-mate but not in the Twilight Universe and not Bella.

Well, no, even at the end of a long few days of sleep deprivation, love triangle BS, a vampiric battle or two, and a confrontation with the Volturi, even Bella doesn't quite say that Jacob is her soul-mate, too. She says he was her soul-mate in that world where there was no magic, which is basically saying he could have been her soul-mate, not is. Also, when she's talking to Jacob, honesty is not her primary goal. She's trying to break up with him while causing him minimal pain. I think of Jacob's attachment to Bella as made up of a bad crush, lust, friendliness, and trying to protect her from people he sees as unbelievably and always dangerous. To me, although Jacob is a bit supernatural, his feelings for Bella are very human, just complex. Renesme is his soul-mate. We'll have to wait and see if she wants him. I wonder how adolescent rebellion will fit into this future? Could be a story in there.
Wow, this had me thinking for a while. I had to go back to the book and read the whole soul mates reference in context. Thusly, I notice that Bella did NOT say the soul mates paragraphs to Jacob, she thought them to herself, and of course, us the readers. Bella had no reason to lie to herself at this point, especially being that her feelings about Jacob were finally past her denial. In other words, the jig was up, she was NO longer going to be in self-denial about all that Jacob really meant to her. Hence Bella's epiphany, recognizing Jacob as also being her soul mate, but in that other world without magic/Edward.

To Tornado ~ Firstly, I am responding to your 3 paragraph response to me in your 1/17/12 post. IMO, I think SM is meaning for us to take literally that human Bella had two soul mates. Bella is not the only one that sees this option, Jacob and even Edward and even Charlie see a notion of it too. Usually, when Bella gets something wrong she does so, but on her own, without someone to second her assessments. Also, according to SM, SM had created a good alternate path/option for human Bella in Jacob. And being that humans are pliable, I think in time Bella and Jacob would have meshed well together. Like I have said in the past, they became best-friends so quickly, and a good friendship is suppose to be the foundation of a marriage. Romance, beauty and physical abilities fade but the friendship between a couple is meant to last forever.

Granted, that was not the original purpose of the Jacob character, but SM made her final amendment to the FD version of the Jacob character, hence, forever changing the final meaning of the purpose for Jacob. Therefore, I don’t think we are meant to consider the FD Jacob, or even the original TW (meaning when TW was meant to be a standalone book) version of Jacob when we think of all of Jacob’s actions after Edward’s return in NM. IMO, once an amendment has been made to the previous and/or original version, we have to take into account the final amended version and not the former. Otherwise, what’s the point of it ever being amended in the first place?

Furthermore, since human Bella understandably chose Edward, and human Bella, as we know her, has died, IMO, I also like to interpret the offset of what Renesmee means to be as, Bella’s humanity has been transferred to Renesmee. Thusly, the Jacob character and/or the imprinting power has completed his mission in imprinting on Renesmee, a/k/a a form or type of Bella’s humanity, hence the purpose of the final-amended-version of Jacob has come to fruition.
Tornado wrote:Yes, but Jacob is reconciled to all that in the end. In fact, he half acknowledges how incorrect his previous viewpoint was by saying, "I'll love you the right way now." He finally recognises that the way he loved her before was wrong. It's the closest he comes to admitting he made a mistake.
IMO, Jacob is NOT reconciled to the idea of healthy Bella choosing to be changed into a vampire. IMO, Jacob IS reconciled to the fact that, though the vampire’s humanity may be dead, the vampire is a different being with similar human attributes deserving of the happiness that humans enjoy and due to the imminent death circumstance, dying human Bella will need to be changed to prolong her existence on earth, because her humanity is dying anyway. Thusly, Jacob IS reconciled to the idea that he will have to approve, condone and consent to Bella’s wish to live with the burden/handicap of thirsting/craving for human blood forever (or a form of forever) so she can continue to exist here on earth. Otherwise, without the imminent death circumstance, IMO, Jacob would NOT have consented to the change at all.
Tornado wrote:He has to be, seeing he imprints on a child that he would consider, if he continues to hold that viewpoint, to be half dead. So he has to recognise that Bella's change is not the death he considered it.
IMO, in regards to Renesmee’s vampire attributes, the way Jacob sees Renesmee is, just like when a parent and family choose to love a handicap child, it does NOT mean they consented, condone and/or approve of the handicap that has befell their child and therefore they love the child. On the contrary, they love the child in spite of the handicap they were born with, and they make the necessary adjustments for the child to be comfortable and thrive.
Tornado wrote:But he still suffers. And suffers because of love. And his pain will never lessen, nor will he ever get over it. That's quite a cross to bear. Yes, his suffering is greater than any by the end of the series, because even Leah has the potential to move on. Marcus doesn't.
IMO, Marcus does NOT suffer because of the loss of romantic love due to rejection from his beloved. Marcus suffers because of grief, unceasing vampire grief, because of the literal death/destruction/loss of his respective beloved’s entire person. IMO, Marcus does suffer the most in regards to grief and the length of grief. At least the Romanian vampires have vengence to offset the grief. However, Jacob suffers the most in the rejection of the romantic affections of his beloved, Bella, that goes hand in hand with the grief of her inevitable torturous death of her precious humanity. IMO, Marcus’ pain and Jacob’s pain are in different categories. For me, it is like comparing a poor, diseased starving child in Africa to an American widow. Yes, both suffer tremendous pain and loss but in different ways, hence different categories.

To Corona ~
corona wrote: So, I guess I don't really sympathize much with Jacob because I never bought that. It didn't make much sense at the literary level as it flew in the face of the original premise, which was a) B&E's extraordinary bond with each other and b) the license it gave them to act and feel the way they do. Giving that freely to Jacob as well undermines that premise, so I just rejected it. Jacob does not have that license (how could he? it's not possible!), so he is in violation of the Twilight Standards and Practices Act of 2006, Subsection 13.2, of the True Love and Soul Mate Exemption Code that bans all extreme behavior in the pursuit of Love, with a grandfather clause exempting any Supernatural Love established prior to 2006. Bella and Edward are grandfathered in, Jacob is not. Someone needs to arrest that boy.

Again, your comments have me cracking up. Hilarious. :lol:

However, I disagree. Jacob does so have the license to pursue Bella though Edward got to her first. Bella is human first before she is a vampire. One has to remember, there is a very good reason why a human/vampire relationship can’t last in the long run. The human can’t keep up with the supernatural and the vampire being was not design to handle the grief of the death of their beloved at all. This kind of a relationship is just not feasible for the parties involved. And Jacob knows this, though Edward is in denial of this fact until the end of EC.

In any event, IMO, being that SM created Jacob as a soul mate for human Bella, then it stands to reason, Jacob has the right to do all he has to do to win his natural claim on human Bella. And SM also created Bella to partly love Jacob romantically back as well. Therefore, IMO, because SM has interrupted the natural flow and order of the natural world with supernatural beings and so on, and again, IMO, it stands to reason, we all would have to put up with the natural version (Jacob) of what human Bella was suppose to have IF the supernatural world did not exist and especially after the supernatural being (Edward) understandably threw Bella and his claim away for Bella's own good and consequently, putting things back into the natural order of things. Furthermore, it is very understandable to me, that Jacob is NOT happy or cooperative when Bella’s romantic affections are snatched from him, albeit by Bella herself, so Bella can understandably go back to and/or accept her other soul mate Edward again. This is why, double romances and/or soul mates never work. When you say YES to one, by definition, you are saying NO to the other. Another, painful lesson young Bella will have to learn.
corona wrote: 4) I accepted Jacob's extreme behavior as being entirely within the realm of human experience. Bella and Edward's bond and the intensity of that bond is outside the realm of human experience. I found Jacob's behavior completely recognizable. I read about men who behave the way he does in the news, and the results are tragic. I don't say that to slam Jacob, I say that because I can't find the foundation to support the view that Jacob simply cannot help himself and that he is driven beyond any human's ability to restrain themselves. There are a lot of men in prison that use the same rationale.
Your point is understandable to me, IF we are talking about Jacob coming in between human-Bella and a human-boyfriend/fiancé/husband. But, IMO, this is not a fair comparison, because Edward is a vampire-boyfriend/fiancé/husband, and the men in prison that you refer to, in your illustration, did what they did without ever rationally and legally thinking of the safety of their victim(s) wellbeing. Unlike Jacob, who is trying wholeheartedly to SAVE Bella's humanity, all the while, she has romantically rejected him and has voluntarily signed up to end/kill her healthy humanity and all within weeks of her confessing her plan/wishes to Jacob. IMO, Jacob is a hero in trying to save Bella's humanity, though he failed and human-Bella died. But, IMO, thankfully Bella's humanity was transferred to Renesmee.
corona wrote: To use December's great phrase, B&E's story is one of "romantic possession". Jacob's story is one of "romantic obsession". One practical difference between the two is that Edward hated to see Bella in pain of any kind and never forgave himself for causing her pain. There was no difference between Bella being hurt and Edward being hurt (and that went for Bella as well). Jacob is more than willing to hurt Bella at any time, any place, under any circumstances. Twisting the knife in Bella's heart is something Jacob gets really skilled at. The fact that nothing good comes from it is irrelevant to him, it just means he needs to twist a little harder. Because, you know, he loves her and she'll thank him in the end.
I strongly disagree. Speaking for myself, I can’t place more weight in Jacob’s intentional verbal assault to save Bella’s humanity, than all of Edward’s seriously caused physical and mental (NM catatonic depression) pain and injuries he puts Bella in, albeit unintentionally. In real life, when I see a hurt/injured female, and it is made known to me that all the continuous physical injuries I am seeing are being caused by her beloved, my first conclusion is that the female is in an abusive relationship that she can’t or won’t get out of for her own good. Consequently, IMO, the female's loved ones should get involved immediately BEFORE it is too late. And for me, the word obsession sure does come to mind in the scenario I just mentioned.

corona wrote: My God, he contemplated murdering Nessie. THAT is where that type of obsession will take you. That is where it has taken many a young man and where it has ruined countless lives. To not have Jacob show remorse was a mistake. It sends the message that his contemplation of murder was merely a literary device to demonstrate just how much he loved Bella. He loved Bella so much, he would kill her only child. It sends chills down my spine. Here I was, ready to forgive and embrace Jacob, and he basically told us that no forgiveness is needed since there was nothing to forgive. I have to stop there, I am beginning my two-minute hate on Jacob again.
I could be misunderstanding you, and my apologies if I am. I know I am probably going to get thrown under the bus for saying what I am about to say. But, I just feel compelled to say it.

Speaking for myself, if SM would have had Jacob apologize for contemplating the murder of Nessie, Bella's only child, then I would have needed an apology from Edward and from the Cullens who voted YES to have healthy Bella's humanity murdered/destroyed. After all, they would be murdering/destroying Charlie's and Renee's only child and all in the name of wanting to preserve the romantic couple's love.

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by corona » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:32 am

    December wrote:I guess maybe it is that death thing again (*grin*). For Jake, it's all a desperate gambit to save Bella's life; and although he's mistaken...well he's also not totally mistaken. To put it another way: for me, Jake's frantic determination to stop Bella rushing headlong to her doom (as he sees it) is a subtle reminder that this is partly how Stephenie sees it too. That it's partly how we ought to see it. Or at any rate, that this is how I choose to see it, because I find it jolly romantic -- and Jake is doing his obnoxious bit to keep this aspect of Edward and Bella's love story clearly in view!
    Yeah, we keep coming back to DEATH. But, that is a huge issue, and one that Violet Sunlight is also hanging her hat on. Honestly, I can't disagree with that. That is not my own personal view, but it is one that is certainly offered by SM through Edward first, and then through Jacob. I'm more of a Bella person, I like her outlook.

    As I said before, if Jacob had been right on some things I would have had more sympathy for him. As it stood, I saw his behavior as being explained by obsession and the rationalization of everything for his own benefit, holding on to this image of the Cullens as creatures of Death, because he needed to believe that in order to justify his behavior.

    HOWEVER, if you take the view that Jacob isn't really wrong about that, that everything works out due to a great deal of pure luck, then Jacob becomes a more sympathetic character.

    [Or does it work out? We are talking about DEAD people, after all (insert ominous background music)]

    Using the example of a roulette wheel, Bella places everything on '0'. Edward covers Red and Jacob covers Black. Bella is betting quite foolishly, but she wins anyway. Pure luck. That's a good thing, but Edward and Jacob were not wrong to try to convince Bella otherwise.

    [Or does Bella really win? (insert ominous background music)]

    Well, thanks, now that I'm all thoroughly depressed. :cry:

    Heh, just kidding :D , but I tell you what, I'll make a confession, and yes, it's about DEATH.

    I have always viewed Rosalie's conversation with Bella as the centerpoint of Eclipse. She had one very important and practical point to make to Bella, and there was one more point that was subtly made from the title of the chapter, Unhappy Ending, and then reiterated in one of Rosalie's remarks:
    • "Would you like to hear my story, Bella? It doesn’t have a happy ending — but which of ours does? If we had happy endings, we’d all be under gravestones now."
    Flashback to Edward stepping into the sun in NM.

    The practical point was that Bella needed to be very well prepared for the step she was about to make. Rosalie is the sterling example of what happens when you make that change holding on to regret and anger. Edward's great fear is that he changes Bella, and then she regrets it -- for an eternity. I took Rosalie's story as the confirmation of SM needing Bella to see certain things before taking that step and being "frozen in time". It was critical for Bella's head to be in the right place, to have worked everything out before stepping into that existence.

    And now to the second, more subtle point. Human beings can live a happy life and even experience a true happy ending to that life. Vampires can live a happy existence, even an ecstatically happy existence. But not one vampire that has ever existed will experience a true happy ending. They will always die from violence at the hands of another vampire, and it will always be either murder or suicide brought on by horrific grief.

    Edward understands that all too well. When he falls in love with Bella, he sees for the first time his ultimate doom, that when Bella dies, he will die. She is literally his very life.

    Honestly, I think Edward would have found keeping Bella human a very attractive prospect (for himself), even if she wasn't particularly happy about it. I know that seems selfish on his part, but I think Bella kickstarts Time for him again, and living life through her, where Time has a meaning, was extremely meaningful to him. If he could have had Bella agree to that, I can see how he could envision a full life with her. Once she had passed on, he would have been filled with grief, but also I think a good measure of peace as well. And I think he would have gone to the Volturi. I think he could see that as somehow accomplishing what should be impossible, a True Happy Ending for a vampire. Looking at it that way, Edward could only see them both losing by having her changed; both of them lose whatever chance they had at a True Happy Ending.

    And on that note, maybe that is what you see Edward realizing there at the end of EC? Beyond the practical considerations, Edward realizes that that option is not going to be possible, that Bella will never be happy staying human with him, that she will definitely not be happy staying human without him, and therefore the only happiness he can possibly give her is to take her life? Maybe they will both end up losing that True Happy Ending, but they will lose together?

    I have to go, I want to respond to other comments, I wish I had more time.

    P.S. Don't mean to get all thoroughly depressing, especially right before the weekend. The more I write about Death, the more I want to post something dirty on the Gutter.

    However, I just thought those two themes from Rosalie, the practical considerations of what to expect (Bella's view) and the Unhappy Ending considerations (Edward's view) actually dovetail nicely with the second short life of Bree. Bree can be taken either as an example for Bella and her need to prepare for the bloodlust, or she can be taken as an omen for the ending that awaits all of them. It might even be Felix himself that does the honors for Bella one day. There was nothing unusual about how Bree died. Every single one of them are going out the same way, eventually.

    As far as Edward not accepting SM's version of BD2, I could see that if we stay focused on those themes of Death. Edward grows in optimism during BD. The "real" Edward would have experienced moments of joy, but always leavened with the knowledge that it is all going to come to an end at some point, it is only a matter of time. And that would be the next thing he is worried about. From the moment he fell in love with Bella he knew his days were numbered, and now her days are numbered as well. Neither will survive without the other, and there will be no peaceful end for either of them.

    Too, too depressing. I'm with Bella, I like the way she sees it, with the only downside having to drive a Ferrari.
    "It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:10 pm

    Violet Sunlight wrote:Wow, this had me thinking for a while. I had to go back to the book and read the whole soul mates reference in context. Thusly, I notice that Bella did NOT say the soul mates paragraphs to Jacob, she thought them to herself, and of course, us the readers. Bella had no reason to lie to herself at this point, especially being that her feelings about Jacob were finally past her denial.
    Yes, but considering the emotional state that she is in at the time, overrating her feelings for Jake is not impossible. Although, as I said earlier, I do believe that SM means us to buy it. I just don't think she's built a great case for swallowing it.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:To Tornado ~ Firstly, I am responding to your 3 paragraph response to me in your 1/17/12 post. IMO, I think SM is meaning for us to take literally that human Bella had two soul mates.
    I agree that that is likely.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:Bella is not the only one that sees this option, Jacob and even Edward and even Charlie see a notion of it too.
    That Jacob would think Bella is his soul mate is likely at this point. It is also clearly wrong, as we all know that Renesmee is his soul mate, or he would have imprinted on Bella.

    Also, just because Edward or even Charlie thinks that Bella could have a good life and marriage with Jacob does not necessarily mean that they are thinking "soul mate" in this, especially on Edward's side. You can love and live and laugh with someone for your whole life, and they are not necessarily a "soul mate", at least, in my understanding of the word, which I take to mean the best person, out of about 6 billion on this planet, that you could have. Even Jake, when defending his case for having Bella to Edward in the tent scene, doesn't say, "she loves me just as much as you" but talks instead about the human advantages of Bella staying with him.
    Sam and Leah could have had a great relationship, and clearly did, but it is clear that they were not soul mates, or Sam would have imprinted on Leah. Relationships are possible, and are around us, everywhere, without necessarily being what I would define as a soul mate.
    Violet Sunlight wrote: Usually, when Bella gets something wrong she does so, but on her own, without someone to second her assessments.
    Actually, Bella is more commonly right when no one agrees with her. She was right about being safe with Edward. She was right about having a relationship with him. She was right about becoming a vampire. She was right about keeping the baby. All these things at least one other person (and usually more) told her she was wrong about, but she was right in every case.
    Violet Sunlight wrote: Also, according to SM, SM had created a good alternate path/option for human Bella in Jacob. And being that humans are pliable, I think in time Bella and Jacob would have meshed well together. Like I have said in the past, they became best-friends so quickly, and a good friendship is suppose to be the foundation of a marriage. Romance, beauty and physical abilities fade but the friendship between a couple is meant to last forever.
    I agree with that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would be soul mates. You can do all that but not be with your soul mate. I think the phrase "soul mate" means more than just having a loving relationship with someone.
    Violet Sunlight wrote: Furthermore, since human Bella understandably chose Edward, and human Bella, as we know her, has died, IMO, I also like to interpret the offset of what Renesmee means to be as, Bella’s humanity has been transferred to Renesmee. Thusly, the Jacob character and/or the imprinting power has completed his mission in imprinting on Renesmee, a/k/a a form or type of Bella’s humanity, hence the purpose of the final-amended-version of Jacob has come to fruition.
    If you're suggesting that Jake imprinted on Renesmee simply because she represented Bella's humanity, I couldn't disagree more. If that were the case, he would have imprinted on Bella while she was still human. He had plenty of time to do so. He imprinted on Renesmee because she was meant for him, i.e. she had different attributes to Bella, and they were the attributes that appealed to his werewolf side. I'd say the vampire side is part of what appealed to his werewolf side, for whatever reason. Or maybe it was the fact that she inherited Edward's love of cars! ;)
    Violet Sunlight wrote: IMO, Jacob is NOT reconciled to the idea of healthy Bella choosing to be changed into a vampire. IMO, Jacob IS reconciled to the fact that, though the vampire’s humanity may be dead, the vampire is a different being with similar human attributes deserving of the happiness that humans enjoy and due to the imminent death circumstance, dying human Bella will need to be changed to prolong her existence on earth, because her humanity is dying anyway. Thusly, Jacob IS reconciled to the idea that he will have to approve, condone and consent to Bella’s wish to live with the burden/handicap of thirsting/craving for human blood forever (or a form of forever) so she can continue to exist here on earth. Otherwise, without the imminent death circumstance, IMO, Jacob would NOT have consented to the change at all.
    I disagree. If Bella had survived the birth, and he had imprinted on Renesmee, I think he would have consented to Bella's change anyway. As Sam himself said, when he was Alpha (and he was the one who made the decisions at that time), Bella made an informed decision. It was Jacob's jealousy that was clouding his viewpoint at that time. Sam did not consider Bella's transformation to be breaking the treaty. It was Renesmee that was the dealbreaker for him.
    Violet Sunlight wrote: IMO, in regards to Renesmee’s vampire attributes, the way Jacob sees Renesmee is, just like when a parent and family choose to love a handicap child, it does NOT mean they consented, condone and/or approve of the handicap that has befell their child and therefore they love the child. On the contrary, they love the child in spite of the handicap they were born with, and they make the necessary adjustments for the child to be comfortable and thrive.
    Okay, let me just take a minute to absorb what you are saying. Jacob considers Renesmee handicapped????? That you should consider that because she is part vampire Jacob views her as, in some way, sick or incomplete is just incredible to me. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for this point of view, and, as I quoted earlier, the recognition in Jacob's statement that he had loved Bella the wrong way previously is tantamount to saying that he knew what loving the right way was now, and that was what he felt for Renesmee.
    It is clear by this statement that, whatever love he felt for Bella, it was a pale shadow compared with the all consuming love (and it will be romantic love when she is older) that he feels for Renesmee.
    If he wanted or needed someone who was fully human he could have imprinted on Bella, or any other human at LaPush or Forks. Instead, he imprints on a half vampire child. It's likely that the vampire attributes made her more appealing to his werewolf genes, so I think it's completely wrong to suggest that it is something he considers a handicap.
    Violet Sunlight wrote: IMO, Marcus does NOT suffer because of the loss of romantic love due to rejection from his beloved. Marcus suffers because of grief, unceasing vampire grief, because of the literal death/destruction/loss of his respective beloved’s entire person. IMO, Marcus does suffer the most in regards to grief and the length of grief. At least the Romanian vampires have vengence to offset the grief. However, Jacob suffers the most in the rejection of the romantic affections of his beloved, Bella, that goes hand in hand with the grief of her inevitable torturous death of her precious humanity. IMO, Marcus’ pain and Jacob’s pain are in different categories. For me, it is like comparing a poor, diseased starving child in Africa to an American widow. Yes, both suffer tremendous pain and loss but in different ways, hence different categories.
    There is no reason to assume that romantic suffering is most extreme when there is rejection, and less at other times. For pure romantic suffering, Marcus outweighs Jacob. And, as has been pointed out earlier, for rejection, Leah outweighs Jacob, because Jacob ends the series with a potential partner who he is bonded to, whereas Leah ends it with nothing better than being free from her ex's thoughts.

    I'll leave the rest to corona!

    I just read corona's post, and I just wanted to add a comment to this paragraph:
    corona wrote:As far as Edward not accepting SM's version of BD2, I could see that if we stay focused on those themes of Death. Edward grows in optimism during BD. The "real" Edward would have experienced moments of joy, but always leavened with the knowledge that it is all going to come to an end at some point, it is only a matter of time. And that would be the next thing he is worried about. From the moment he fell in love with Bella he knew his days were numbered, and now her days are numbered as well. Neither will survive without the other, and there will be no peaceful end for either of them.
    Yes, but their days were numbered as humans as well. They both would have died, likely a lot sooner than they will now. And while they will die a violent death as a vampire, I believe they have as great a chance at heaven as the rest of us. Let's face it: death is the lot of us all, and some of us may, ourselves, experience violent death (insert screeching brakes sound here). So, apart from the thirst aspect, their lot is not much different from our own, except that their existence on this planet is likely to be much longer.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:14 pm

    My apologies to the moderators for the double post, but I feel compelled to answer some of VS' comments to corona.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:However, I disagree. Jacob does so have the license to pursue Bella though Edward got to her first. Bella is human first before she is a vampire. One has to remember, there is a very good reason why a human/vampire relationship can’t last in the long run. The human can’t keep up with the supernatural and the vampire being was not design to handle the grief of the death of their beloved at all. This kind of a relationship is just not feasible for the parties involved. And Jacob knows this, though Edward is in denial of this fact until the end of EC.
    Edward has accepted the fact, albeit against his will, by the end of NM. By the end of Eclipse he is more comfortable with it. And it's not just the human/vampire relationship which Jacob has a problem with. Bella has a problem with that, too. Jacob has a problem with Bella's informed choice in becoming a vampire. And I know your arguments for this, so I don't think there's any point in repeating them.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:In any event, IMO, being that SM created Jacob as a soul mate for human Bella, then it stands to reason, Jacob has the right to do all he has to do to win his natural claim on human Bella. And SM also created Bella to partly love Jacob romantically back as well. Therefore, IMO, because SM has interrupted the natural flow and order of the natural world with supernatural beings and so on, and again, IMO, it stands to reason, we all would have to put up with the natural version (Jacob) of what human Bella was suppose to have IF the supernatural world did not exist and especially after the supernatural being (Edward) understandably threw Bella and his claim away for Bella's own good and consequently, putting things back into the natural order of things.
    Jacob's attempts to take Bella away from Edward come about because he has been taken out of the natural order of things. If it wasn't for his own contact with the supernatural world he wouldn't know what Edward was, so would not have any problem with their relationship, apart from the jealousy it would cause him. So he can't gain an argument from the natural world when he has been taken out of it. Bella herself comments on how strange it is that everyone she is drawn to is in the supernatural world. Would the draw to Jacob have been as compelling if there wasn't a supernatural element to his makeup? Possibly not, especially if that draw has something to do with Renesmee.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:Furthermore, it is very understandable to me, that Jacob is NOT happy or cooperative when Bella’s romantic affections are snatched from him, albeit by Bella herself, so Bella can understandably go back to and/or accept her other soul mate Edward again. This is why, double romances and/or soul mates never work. When you say YES to one, by definition, you are saying NO to the other. Another, painful lesson young Bella will have to learn.
    And a lesson that young Jacob will have to learn, too. That just because a girl loves you doesn't mean you can have her, especially if she loves someone else more than you.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:Your point is understandable to me, IF we are talking about Jacob coming in between human-Bella and a human-boyfriend/fiancé/husband. But, IMO, this is not a fair comparison, because Edward is a vampire-boyfriend/fiancé/husband, and the men in prison that you refer to, in your illustration, did what they did without ever rationally and legally thinking of the safety of their victim(s) wellbeing.
    The point that corona is making, I believe, is that there are many men in jail who committed wrong deeds, ostensibly for the person they loved, for "their own good" as it were. This is the justification they use in their minds to make their unacceptable behaviour acceptable. This is Jacob's rationale. He's doing it all for Bella. He's manipulating her, and distressing her emotionally, time and time again, for her own good. Hence, no apology needed. It was all for Bella, and, as corona said, "she'll thank him in the end". Of course, that would be a more compelling argument if a) Jacob didn't have self interest in Bella leaving Edward, and b) if he had felt remorse for the times he hurt Bella, in spite of the reasons for his actions, which is what Edward has in his favour.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:I strongly disagree. Speaking for myself, I can’t place more weight in Jacob’s intentional verbal assault to save Bella’s humanity, than all of Edward’s seriously caused physical and mental (NM catatonic depression) pain and injuries he puts Bella in, albeit unintentionally. In real life, when I see a hurt/injured female, and it is made known to me that all the continuous physical injuries I am seeing are being caused by her beloved, my first conclusion is that the female is in an abusive relationship that she can’t or won’t get out of for her own good. Consequently, IMO, the female's loved ones should get involved immediately BEFORE it is too late. And for me, the word obsession sure does come to mind in the scenario I just mentioned.
    As corona pointed out earlier, everything Edward does he does because he believes it will help Bella. Is he wrong? Undoubtedly! It's what he does with that discovery that makes him stand out from Jacob. When he discovers that he is wrong, then he is in pain and can't forgive himself for the hurt he caused her. Why? Because, as corona said, what hurts Bella hurts Edward. Jacob is nothing like the same. He hurts Bella time and time again, justifying it because it's "for her own good" and "she'll thank him in the end". He feels no remorse for hurting her because he believes his motivations are too altruistic to require them, in spite of the fact that they hurt the woman he loves. This is the thing that makes his relationship with Bella less healthy than her relationship with Edward. Causing pain to her, for him, needs no apology. For Edward, he will apologise every time, and sometimes even change his thinking to align with hers, if he sees the point to her argument. Jacob never comes close to doing this until he gets Renesmee.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:Speaking for myself, if SM would have had Jacob apologize for contemplating the murder of Nessie, Bella's only child, then I would have needed an apology from Edward and from the Cullens who voted YES to have healthy Bella's humanity murdered/destroyed. After all, they would be murdering/destroying Charlie's and Renee's only child and all in the name of wanting to preserve the romantic couple's love.
    There is no comparison between Bella making an informed choice to become a vampire and Jacob deciding to murder a baby, who has done no wrong herself up to that point, other than be conceived inside a human, which was definitely NOT her fault. Jacob even has reason to think that she might not be a danger, as Edward has told him that the child is capable of love. He is going to rob that child of any sort of life, and that is far removed from Bella becoming a vampire. Even unable to see either of her parents again she will still be able to have contact with them via letters and emails. Jacob is planning to end Renesmee's entire existence, becoming judge, jury and executioner for her, without even seeing if she will be a danger. There is simply no comparison between Bella's choice and Jacob deciding to end Renesmee's life.
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    Violet Sunlight
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Violet Sunlight » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:00 am

    To Tornado ~

    Firstly, in regards, to Edward and Jacob being a soul mates to Bella, for me, I do see and understand the romantic relationship between Bella & Jacob and if, Bella, sincerely and genuinely, thought that Jacob was her other soul mate in a world where there was no magic/Edward and if SM confirms it, then for me, it is a closed subject.
    Tornado wrote:Actually, Bella is more commonly right when no one agrees with her. She was right about being safe with Edward. She was right about having a relationship with him. She was right about becoming a vampire. She was right about keeping the baby. All these things at least one other person (and usually more) told her she was wrong about, but she was right in every case.
    I certainly, agree about the baby. However, Bella’s broken and bruised body and her NM catatonic state of mind, etc., do not lead me to believe she was right about being safe with Edward as a human. IMO, as a human, I don’t think she was right to be in a vampire relationship to begin with. But, being that Edward is her soul mate in the supernatural world she lives in, she, understandably, had to make arrangements to correct that error hence, the reason she decides to become a vampire.
    Tornado wrote:If you're suggesting that Jake imprinted on Renesmee simply because she represented Bella's humanity, I couldn't disagree more. If that were the case, he would have imprinted on Bella while she was still human. He had plenty of time to do so. He imprinted on Renesmee because she was meant for him, i.e. she had different attributes to Bella, and they were the attributes that appealed to his werewolf side. I'd say the vampire side is part of what appealed to his werewolf side, for whatever reason. Or maybe it was the fact that she inherited Edward's love of cars!
    I DON’T believe Renemee’s humanity is an exact duplicate/clone of Bella’s humanity. IMO, Renesmee represents a type/part/image of Bella’s humanity.
    Tornado wrote:Okay, let me just take a minute to absorb what you are saying. Jacob considers Renesmee handicapped????? That you should consider that because she is part vampire Jacob views her as, in some way, sick or incomplete is just incredible to me. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for this point of view, and, as I quoted earlier, the recognition in Jacob's statement that he had loved Bella the wrong way previously is tantamount to saying that he knew what loving the right way was now, and that was what he felt for Renesmee.
    It is clear by this statement that, whatever love he felt for Bella, it was a pale shadow compared with the all consuming love (and it will be romantic love when she is older) that he feels for Renesmee.
    If he wanted or needed someone who was fully human he could have imprinted on Bella, or any other human at LaPush or Forks. Instead, he imprints on a half vampire child. It's likely that the vampire attributes made her more appealing to his werewolf genes, so I think it's completely wrong to suggest that it is something he considers a handicap.
    I was referring to Renesmee’s thirst/craving for human blood, like I have said in the past, it is the vampire’s burden/handicap to bear. I wasn’t referring to anything else. I thought that was what you were originally referring to. I thought Jacob’s biggest contention about vampires was their thirst for human blood. He is always saying, blood sucker this and blood sucker that, all the time. My apologies, for the misunderstanding.

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