Edward and Bella 2

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The Dark Knight
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:54 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:Not a big leap of faith to accept what is presented to you in a matter of fact way...
Hmm. I don't know, most people have a huge issue in accepting paradigm shifts no matter how matter-of-factly they're presented. Take it from someone who sees it in the science world all the time. Scientists have certain beliefs about the way things work. They've seen some evidence of it. Someone comes along and proves all that evidence to be total BS. Nothing is what they thought it was. Even though the evidence of the paradigm shift is sitting there staring them in the face, in print, in black and white, you'd be amazed at how many of them will fight believing it tooth and nail. So yes, I still say it is completely odd to be able to accept the existence of mythical creatures without batting an eye.

right up to the point that one is bitting you on the neck...got it... :lol: Yah, denial is not just a river in Egypt...it will never stop to amaze me how people can be so static...nice way of putting stupid...
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moon sidhe
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by moon sidhe » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:20 am

The Dark Knight wrote: right up to the point that one is bitting you on the neck...got it... :lol: Yah, denial is not just a river in Egypt...it will never stop to amaze me how people can be so static...nice way of putting stupid...
Haha. Yeah, a lot of times it is up to the point of being bitten. But I don't think it's necessarily stupidity that prevents someone from believing in a paradigm shift. Part of it, especially for scientists anyway, is that it's in the job description to be a skeptic. Another part is that we all have a lot of emotions invested in certain beliefs. So it can be really easy to get caught up in the emotions of it, and ignore the facts of it. And yes, sometimes it really is just pure stupidity. heh.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:53 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote: right up to the point that one is bitting you on the neck...got it... :lol: Yah, denial is not just a river in Egypt...it will never stop to amaze me how people can be so static...nice way of putting stupid...
Haha. Yeah, a lot of times it is up to the point of being bitten. But I don't think it's necessarily stupidity that prevents someone from believing in a paradigm shift. Part of it, especially for scientists anyway, is that it's in the job description to be a skeptic. Another part is that we all have a lot of emotions invested in certain beliefs. So it can be really easy to get caught up in the emotions of it, and ignore the facts of it. And yes, sometimes it really is just pure stupidity. heh.
Yah we all get emotionally invested in things that are hard to leave behind...We see it here on the lex all the time, where the Edward lovers just don't treat my poor innocent perfect Bella right... :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Alphie » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:26 pm

I'd like to hop back a moment to where the issue was brought up where Bella has no self worth. Don't you think that part of what draws the character together is that neither of them really has self worth and that they both believe the other person is superior to them? That they don't understand why such a perfect, beautiful individual could ever really love them? Maybe that's the real tie that binds Edward and Bella together in the end is that they need each other to believe they are worthy.

Not that I agree with that totally, but it could be debated, right? Or am I crazy? (Well, I know I'm crazy, but I mean am I crazy about THIS idea? LOL!)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Asheleyo » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:54 pm

First, I think Edward was right to slow down Bella's advances. She was being pulled a lot more forcefully by hormones than Edward was and it would have been a huge mistake to have sex at any point before the time they actually did. Could you imagine Bella showing up suddenly looking 3 months pregnant at school? Not just that, I really don't think she was ready emotionally for it. I think it was perfectly fair for Edward to demand marriage and the things that he feels she needed. He wanted to be her provider and there's no reason for her to be so afraid of marriage.

Second, I think Bella wasn't as thrown off by the supernatural because she had time to embrace it. From the time the van almost hit her, she knew there was something more than human about him, but that he was still good because he saved her. So why should she be afraid when she finds out that "more than human" part is vampire? It's pretty obvious that he's not there to kill her or he would have done it already. And just for the record, there were a couple times that she was afraid of him.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:52 pm

The saying "true love waits" comes to mind...

Personally, I think it's a load of bull in the context it's typically used. But I do think it applies here very well. If, in a relationship, one person wants to wait until they're married, if it's true love, it's worth it to wait I think.

I think that their lack of self-worth probably is what kept them together. Or Bella's that is. Someone with any healthy sense of self-worth would have said, eventually, when left the way Edward left Bella. "You know what, I'm worth being treated better than that. I'm worth an explanation, and I'm worth the truth. And if he won't give me that, someone else will." I think her lack of indignity over that is what allowed them to get back together once they got back from Volterra.

But I don't think the fact that she couldn't let him go had anything to do with her sense of self-worth, I think it had more to do with her sense of his worth. She knew she'd never find anyone better than that, regardless of how great she was.

But Alphie, I think you're definitely right, or at least I like that idea.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Alphie » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:28 pm

But I don't think the fact that she couldn't let him go had anything to do with her sense of self-worth, I think it had more to do with her sense of his worth. She knew she'd never find anyone better than that, regardless of how great she was.
Exactly. I'm sorry if I didn't word it right... again. She didn't think she could do better and that's what hurt the most. But then came Jacob which challenged her idea of "perfect" and I think confused her self-esteem issues further. Now she has two great guys pursuing her when she doesn't see why.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:27 pm

Alphie wrote:I'd like to hop back a moment to where the issue was brought up where Bella has no self worth. Don't you think that part of what draws the character together is that neither of them really has self worth and that they both believe the other person is superior to them? That they don't understand why such a perfect, beautiful individual could ever really love them? Maybe that's the real tie that binds Edward and Bella together in the end is that they need each other to believe they are worthy.

Not that I agree with that totally, but it could be debated, right? Or am I crazy? (Well, I know I'm crazy, but I mean am I crazy about THIS idea? LOL!)
This is a factor in love that I have found to be a truth, at least an underlying truth. It's a piece of the strong desire to be completed by your SO. The desire to search for that someone special that can fulfill that gap of unworthiness that we all feel at sometime or another. Its part of my theory of opposites attracted each other...

If we wheren't a bit touch in the head we wouldn't be here discussing a fantacy...I like to think this was what Tolken and C.S. Lewis did at the pub all those years...nice thought right?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:46 pm

Alphie wrote:
But I don't think the fact that she couldn't let him go had anything to do with her sense of self-worth, I think it had more to do with her sense of his worth. She knew she'd never find anyone better than that, regardless of how great she was.
Exactly. I'm sorry if I didn't word it right... again. She didn't think she could do better and that's what hurt the most. But then came Jacob which challenged her idea of "perfect" and I think confused her self-esteem issues further. Now she has two great guys pursuing her when she doesn't see why.
Oh, you absolutely worded it right - I was just throwing that in there!

The thing that I think makes their relationship.... questionable in my eyes is Bella's lack of a sense of herself apart from anyone else.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Post by Asheleyo » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:52 pm

You know, I think people are not giving Bella enough credit. The lack of self-worth for both her and Edward is something I only see when they're thinking about the other person. They both view each other on a different plane of existence. Bella sees Edward as out of reach because he's insanely beautiful and mysterious and unique, etc. Edward sees Bella as out of reach because she's human and deserves to live a life that isn't plagued by his monstrous existence.

But both of them had lives before the other and both of them still maintain connections to people outside of their relationship with each other. I find nothing wrong with a person choosing to connect themselves with others and serve others in a genuinely altruistic manner. But it's not even really that. Bella love Charlie and enjoys cooking for him and being what to her certainly feels like the woman of the house. She likes the independence that comes with living with Charlie; it's very much, to me, an adult-like thing. It feels similar to me, when reading her reaction to living with him, to the way I felt when I finally got an apartment with my husband. It was oddly liberating feeling like I had a place of my own and "grown-up" responsibilities. She has interests in music and books the same as anyone, she likes cooking and keeping a tidy home. She had an existence before Edward; she wasn't void of all purpose. And she doesn't completely abandon that after either. The same goes for Edward. He had a place in his family, which one could claim was his reason for living. If you're going to claim that all Bella lives for is other people, then you can make that argument for tons of people. Hell, life is about the connections we have with other people. Some people are perfectly happy to define themselves based off the people they keep around and love in their lives. I think people have become too selfish and forget that, not too long ago, life was solely about being a place holder in a smaller community, serving a specific purpose to the people around you. Think of people who live in tribes. Their lives are to make sure that everyone gets what they need, not to serve their own selfish desires.

Yes, individuality counts for something, but I think Bella has plenty of that. She certainly has her own opinions, and that is the most important part of an individual, in my opinion.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.

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