Bella Swan Cullen #3

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Amanda Beth
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Amanda Beth » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:40 pm

There is only one thing I could not do, no matter how much I loved someone.

I couldn't give up my family.

I know I have a very different relationship with my parents than Bella, but I couldn't do it. Bella didn't KNOW when she changed that Charlie would be able to stick around. She was going to give them up and no love could make me want to not only lose them... but hurt them.

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:18 pm

I think that Bella became more optimistic about her human family after seeing how perfectly Carlisle could interact with humans. As a newborn, Bella *knew* that she would be under the training of Carlisle himself, who is able to work around blood without any difficulties. Therefore, she most likely believed that, under his instructions, interacting with Charlie would not be difficult.

By the time she decided to embrace a transformation, Bella was an adult. She made a choice for herself, and I highly doubt that Charlie would have approved. She needed to focus on what was best for *her*, as well.

As far as Jacob is concerned, I do believe that he was being a bit of a hypocrite. Yes, he didn't choose to be a werewolf, but he was bragging about the benefits of his condition during the middle of New Moon. Jacob himself will be able to lead an immortal life if he wisely handles each transformation. Even as a shapeshifter, Jacob is still himself at the core. Why could he not acknowledge that Bella would still be herself under the care of the Cullens, too?

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Jazz Girl » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:53 pm

Swedishskinjer~ Wow! I absolutely love that response. You are absolutely right and I love how completely logically it is layed out and argued. Very well done!!

As for why Jacob should hold back? Well, first I would say out of respect for his friend. Because she asked him to. And, if he truly loved her as he says he does, than that request, more than any other, should make him do so. Bella asks Jacob in so many ways and so many times, both before and after the point where I truly see her comprehending her decision, that his utter refusal to respect that request is just wrong. Whether or not he agreed with her even making the decision or not, Bella asked, begged, for him to stop.

For me, Bella's refusal to follow through with any consequences was what complicated things so much more than they needed to be.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:03 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Swedishskinjer~ Wow! I absolutely love that response. You are absolutely right and I love how completely logically it is layed out and argued. Very well done!!

As for why Jacob should hold back? Well, first I would say out of respect for his friend. Because she asked him to. And, if he truly loved her as he says he does, than that request, more than any other, should make him do so. Bella asks Jacob in so many ways and so many times, both before and after the point where I truly see her comprehending her decision, that his utter refusal to respect that request is just wrong. Whether or not he agreed with her even making the decision or not, Bella asked, begged, for him to stop.

For me, Bella's refusal to follow through with any consequences was what complicated things so much more than they needed to be.
Thank you! I completely agree with your argument, as well.

OK, so some pro-Jacob fans will argue, "Jacob was worried that he wouldn't be able to remain friends with Bella after the transformation. Above all else, that compelled him to do what he did: convince Bella to choose mortality."

My response? Seth Clearwater and his remarkable friendship with the Cullens. If Jacob truly cared for Bella (not Bella Cullen or Bella Swan, because she would always be Bella), then that love would overwhelm any sense of aversion, like Seth's great capacity for understanding enabled him to peacefully interact with the Cullens as a close friend. After connecting with Renesmee, Jacob was finally able to acknowledge that the similarities between his tribe and the Cullens, like a sense of loyalty to the family, were more beautiful than their differences.

Working together allowed both sides to dismiss their prejudices and embrace understanding in the end. Seth, who perceived purity in each Cullen, was one of the first members of the tribe to lose his sense of disgust. Yes, the shapeshifters could only smell something atrocious around the Cullens, but only due to accumulated hatred from years of embracing prejudice, I believe. Seeing reason allowed them to drop this protective shield.

Carlisle was the first Cullen to successfully eliminate his urges, and Seth was the first wolf to do the same.

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:09 pm

Sorry to interrupt the Jacob-bashing session Jazz Girl and Swedishskinjer, but let's get back to Bella okay? If we want to talk about Jacob, I'll quote the iPhone commercial - there's a thread for that!

I agree with you, Swedishskinjer, that Bella was truly informed when she truly realized that Edward was her soul mate in every possible way. I believe this couldn't occur until she realized she was also in love with Jacob, because that represented the alternative that she also wanted. That want, obviously, was NOTHING in comparison to how much she wanted an eternity with Edward, and once she realized that, she was ready.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:20 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Sorry to interrupt the Jacob-bashing session Jazz Girl and Swedishskinjer, but let's get back to Bella okay? If we want to talk about Jacob, I'll quote the iPhone commercial - there's a thread for that!

I agree with you, Swedishskinjer, that Bella was truly informed when she truly realized that Edward was her soul mate in every possible way. I believe this couldn't occur until she realized she was also in love with Jacob, because that represented the alternative that she also wanted. That want, obviously, was NOTHING in comparison to how much she wanted an eternity with Edward, and once she realized that, she was ready.
Technically, this thread is about Bella Cullen. We were discussing how Bella became a member of the Cullen family, which relates directly to the decisions that she had to make with the other characters, including Jacob and his opposition to the Cullen coven. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, I do not dislike Jacob Black as a character, since I was happy to see that he was able to connect with Renesmee. However, I do believe that his behavior was unacceptable with Bella.

So, yes, Jacob Black may be discussed when it comes to Bella's journey and how she accepted vampirism (Bella Cullen).

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:15 pm

Well, it seems to me that this discussion is veering more towards focusing on Jacob's behavior as the major point of conversation, with Bella as an afterthought, but whatever.

I find Jacob's actions with Bella to be acceptable in the context that he was trying to save her life, as SM has described to us.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Jazz Girl » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:12 pm

But, if Bella didn't want her life saved? If she didn't see it that way? Especially after she understood and accepted her options, made her decision with full and complete understanding of the ramifications, Bella NEVER saw it as saving her life. Even she saw it as interference.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:32 pm

I'm not entirely sure why Bella's POV is the definitive one. I'm sure that sounds stupid, since the story is told through her POV, but Bella doesn't always know what's best for herself, and clearly she's not particularly self-aware. SM states that she falls in love with Jacob in New Moon, she doesn't realize it until Eclipse. Edward is completely and irrevocably in love with her by the time he decides to befriend her in Twilight, it takes her until the end of New Moon to realize it. Obviously there are reasons for that and I'm NOT blaming her.

So what if it's interference? I'm sorry, but honestly, so what? If I feel like my best friend, particularly one I'm in love with, is making a decision that permanent, that in my view is the worst thing they can possibly do, uninformed wild horses couldn't keep me from "interfering." In fact, to allow that friend to make that decision without at least making sure she understands what she's doing is, in my opinion, unacceptable.

Stephenie tells us that while Bella realizing her love for Jacob would be his wildest fantasy, his goal above all and everything else was to get her to choose life. She tells us he knows he will probably fail, but he has to try. He sees the only thing that could possibly be powerful enough to sway her opinion as an alternate life that she wants with him. Her love for Jacob is the only thing tying her to the human world, so he uses that to try to keep her human. If the only thing keeping her human had been Charlie, he would have gone that route, or Mike or Angela or Eric or whatever.

As soon as Bella makes a decision with all the information she could possibly have, it's over. The fight, this terrible interference, ends.


I have a theoretical question for you - where does it say that Bella and Edward have the right to have the righteousness of their relationship never be questioned by anyone?
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Esme echo » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:02 pm

Everyone sets their own limits when it comes to how far they will go to help a friend avoid self-destructive behavior. "Friends don't let friends drive drunk," etc. Bella was fortunate that the two most important people in her life (outside of her parents) both had her welfare at heart. They both loved her to distraction. They both wanted to protect her. They both wanted her to stay human.

But Bella had her eye on the ultimate prize--and nothing was going to deter her. She was a "typical" teenager in that one respect: she exhibited an unswerving dedication to getting what she wanted, in spite of anyone else's opinion.

It's easy to criticize Jacob for being brash, in-your-face, rude, etc. He was 16. He was in love. His love was set on turning herself into the worst thing he could possibly imagine. So he reacted. Edward also overreacted and tried to control his run-away love, with no success.

I think it's interesting that Bella was able to maintain her resolution in the face of so much opposition. I agree with Amanda Beth; the prospect of losing my entire family forever--and I don't think Bella was at all certain that she would be able to see Charlie for years--would be enought to give me pause. Bella was also pretty sure she would lose Jacob as a friend. I think Bella was being a little crazy!
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