Bella Swan Cullen #3

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Asheleyo » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:18 pm

I think of it the way that I would compare a reaction to death. If my parents were to die, would I be able to move on with life? Yes. I would be sad, to say the least. But after a while of mourning, my life would go back into its general groove. But it's expected of children to move beyond their parents eventually. We are conditioned to need our parents less and less, even to want them less and less. They may be a part of our lives and we love them, but most of us don't cling to them once in adulthood. Bella had reached that point in her relationships with her parents. She didn't need them anymore, really. Bella had no siblings to worry about, so that's not an issue.

If my husband were to die, would I be able to move on? Quite likely, my life would never resemble what it once was. I have no ability to say for sure whether I could pick myself up and go on with normal routine, returning to the places I used to go with my husband, living in the same home where he was so present. Bella was bound to Edward like a wife to a husband well before they were married. I know not everyone holds to this, but I do believe that marriage, when fully committed to, is combining two lives into one, making two flesh one. To pull apart that flesh again is sometimes irrevocably damaging.

When looking at it this way, I can see how Bella could be prepared to leave behind her family and embrace immortality with Edward. She knew it would be painful to leave Charlie behind, though I do believe she always stayed stubbornly optimistic about being able to talk to or see him again after being turned. But it would be exponentially more painful to leave Edward behind, and as she aged she would see it as leaving him bit by bit, slowly being torn away from him.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:20 pm

Thank you for bringing the discussion back, my dear friend!

I agree. It's incredible how much it took dear Bella to pause for a moment!

Her single-mindedness in her infatuation with Edward is possibly the greatest example of her actually acting her age. Being unable to really consider alternatives or consequences to her greatest wish - oh yeah, that's a true 17-year-old!!! :lol:

I think though that there's an underlying reason for her single-mindedness - her lack of attachment to the human world. She was attached to practically no one. Charlie, Renee, Jacob. A little bit Angela. She was made to be part of a world of secrets. Obviously here it turned out to be one of vampires, but if vamps hadn't existed, and she'd ended up with Jacob, she still would have been pretty cut off from the rest of the world, or so it seems. It doesn't seem like the kids from La Push hang out with the kids outside the Res much, does it?

I also wanted to pose another thought. Above I mentioned her "infatuation" with Edward. I know some would take offense to that, claiming her relationship with Edward is purest true love! And it is, it's purest true love, but it's also, I believe, a little bit of fascination, infatuation, and that is what makes Bella so illogical at times when it comes to Edward. I believe that comes from the fact that she's a human and he's a vampire. Any thoughts?
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:21 pm

Esme echo wrote:Everyone sets their own limits when it comes to how far they will go to help a friend avoid self-destructive behavior. "Friends don't let friends drive drunk," etc. Bella was fortunate that the two most important people in her life (outside of her parents) both had her welfare at heart. They both loved her to distraction. They both wanted to protect her. They both wanted her to stay human.

But Bella had her eye on the ultimate prize--and nothing was going to deter her. She was a "typical" teenager in that one respect: she exhibited an unswerving dedication to getting what she wanted, in spite of anyone else's opinion.

It's easy to criticize Jacob for being brash, in-your-face, rude, etc. He was 16. He was in love. His love was set on turning herself into the worst thing he could possibly imagine. So he reacted. Edward also overreacted and tried to control his run-away love, with no success.

I think it's interesting that Bella was able to maintain her resolution in the face of so much opposition. I agree with Amanda Beth; the prospect of losing my entire family forever--and I don't think Bella was at all certain that she would be able to see Charlie for years--would be enought to give me pause. Bella was also pretty sure she would lose Jacob as a friend. I think Bella was being a little crazy!
However, Edward amended his behavior long before Jacob was able to do the same. I stand by what I said before: Jacob was unable to acknowledge that vampires also had a kind of humanity in them. Did this prejudice against vampires influence his attempts? Yes, I think that Jacob's inability to see the purity within the Cullen family made him more determined to shape Bella's choices by repeatedly guilt-tripping her. If he was willing to manipulate Bella's romantic feelings before the battle in Eclipse, then I'm sure that his other attempts had their own sort of emotional manipulations.

I think that seeing the Cullen family and their wholeness made the negatives of vampirism much less apparent to Bella. Carlisle could be around humans with ease, so why couldn't she do the same under his guidance? Seth was easily able to befriend the Cullen coven, so why couldn't Jacob acknowledge that friendship was still possible between them?

I do think that Bella listened to opposing viewpoints, but her love for Edward conquered all. Even humanity itself.
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Thank you for bringing the discussion back, my dear friend!

I agree. It's incredible how much it took dear Bella to pause for a moment!

Her single-mindedness in her infatuation with Edward is possibly the greatest example of her actually acting her age. Being unable to really consider alternatives or consequences to her greatest wish - oh yeah, that's a true 17-year-old!!! :lol:

I think though that there's an underlying reason for her single-mindedness - her lack of attachment to the human world. She was attached to practically no one. Charlie, Renee, Jacob. A little bit Angela. She was made to be part of a world of secrets. Obviously here it turned out to be one of vampires, but if vamps hadn't existed, and she'd ended up with Jacob, she still would have been pretty cut off from the rest of the world, or so it seems. It doesn't seem like the kids from La Push hang out with the kids outside the Res much, does it?

I also wanted to pose another thought. Above I mentioned her "infatuation" with Edward. I know some would take offense to that, claiming her relationship with Edward is purest true love! And it is, it's purest true love, but it's also, I believe, a little bit of fascination, infatuation, and that is what makes Bella so illogical at times when it comes to Edward. I believe that comes from the fact that she's a human and he's a vampire. Any thoughts?
Well, of course that played some role, but it wasn't exactly significant. Fascination is what initially brought them together. Edward was intrigued by Bella's closed mind and the fact that she could so easily enter his world. Bella was fascinated by the otherworldly quality to Edward and how mysteriously he carried himself around her. If it wasn't for some measure of fascination, then their two worlds wouldn't have collided.

Of course, it's not easy to collect yourself around a vampire. After all, they are built to attract and then to kill. Eventually, I do believe that Bella was able to completely feel at ease around the Cullen family after all of their "adventures" together. This initial mysteriousness was replaced by something resembling a familial closeness between this human and a family of immortals. Bella was no longer something to attract. She was something to cherish.

Was Bella illogical, then? Perhaps. However, the fantastical circumstances in this story are unimaginable to us.

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:30 pm

Swedishskinjer - this is in response to your response to Esme Echo - I was typing this as you were typing my response to me!

Consider that werewolves are NOT the sworn mortal enemies of vampires. Rather, vampires are the sworn mortal enemies of werewolves - they aren't mutually inclusive.

Also, consider that THIS vampire in particular is the one that left Bella for dead in the woods, turned her into a zombie for weeks on end, lied to her, etc. How would it look to you, in Jacob's shoes? Wouldn't what he did to Bella (with wonderful selfless intentions, before I get myself into trouble!) make you believe in the nasty things you've heard about vampires??

Also, I think you're refusing to see Jacob's intentions as anything other than controlling her for the sake of controlling her, which is simply not what they were. I can say that because we've been told that by the creator of these characters - who would know better than her?

The battle in Eclipse was a last-ditch effort. His entire tone there is different from any other time in the book. Although I am curious. What other parts of the book do you think have that kind of emotional manipulation.

I have a suggestion for you - read Being Jacob Black. It's on SM's website, it shows Jacob's perspective on Twilight and New Moon.

And now we REALLY need to stay back with Bella.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:33 pm

swedishskinjer wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Thank you for bringing the discussion back, my dear friend!

I agree. It's incredible how much it took dear Bella to pause for a moment!

Her single-mindedness in her infatuation with Edward is possibly the greatest example of her actually acting her age. Being unable to really consider alternatives or consequences to her greatest wish - oh yeah, that's a true 17-year-old!!! :lol:

I think though that there's an underlying reason for her single-mindedness - her lack of attachment to the human world. She was attached to practically no one. Charlie, Renee, Jacob. A little bit Angela. She was made to be part of a world of secrets. Obviously here it turned out to be one of vampires, but if vamps hadn't existed, and she'd ended up with Jacob, she still would have been pretty cut off from the rest of the world, or so it seems. It doesn't seem like the kids from La Push hang out with the kids outside the Res much, does it?

I also wanted to pose another thought. Above I mentioned her "infatuation" with Edward. I know some would take offense to that, claiming her relationship with Edward is purest true love! And it is, it's purest true love, but it's also, I believe, a little bit of fascination, infatuation, and that is what makes Bella so illogical at times when it comes to Edward. I believe that comes from the fact that she's a human and he's a vampire. Any thoughts?
Well, of course that played some role, but it wasn't exactly significant. Fascination is what initially brought them together. Edward was intrigued by Bella's closed mind and the fact that she could so easily enter his world. Bella was fascinated by the otherworldly quality to Edward and how mysteriously he carried himself around her. If it wasn't for some measure of fascination, then their two worlds wouldn't have collided.

Of course, it's not easy to collect yourself around a vampire. After all, they are built to attract and then to kill. Eventually, I do believe that Bella was able to completely feel at ease around the Cullen family after all of their "adventures" together. This initial mysteriousness was replaced by something resembling a familial closeness between this human and a family of immortals. Bella was no longer something to attract. She was something to cherish.

Was Bella illogical, then? Perhaps. However, the fantastical circumstances in this story are unimaginable to us.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. Could a mod merge my two responses?
Well, now I'm going to double post in response to you, so I suppose we'll get in trouble together? 8-)

I see what you're saying, and you make a good point. I think that fascination continues a little bit too, which is why she's so self-conscious around Edward, why she's unable to really take him off the pedestal she has him on.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:44 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
swedishskinjer wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Thank you for bringing the discussion back, my dear friend!

I agree. It's incredible how much it took dear Bella to pause for a moment!

Her single-mindedness in her infatuation with Edward is possibly the greatest example of her actually acting her age. Being unable to really consider alternatives or consequences to her greatest wish - oh yeah, that's a true 17-year-old!!! :lol:

I think though that there's an underlying reason for her single-mindedness - her lack of attachment to the human world. She was attached to practically no one. Charlie, Renee, Jacob. A little bit Angela. She was made to be part of a world of secrets. Obviously here it turned out to be one of vampires, but if vamps hadn't existed, and she'd ended up with Jacob, she still would have been pretty cut off from the rest of the world, or so it seems. It doesn't seem like the kids from La Push hang out with the kids outside the Res much, does it?

I also wanted to pose another thought. Above I mentioned her "infatuation" with Edward. I know some would take offense to that, claiming her relationship with Edward is purest true love! And it is, it's purest true love, but it's also, I believe, a little bit of fascination, infatuation, and that is what makes Bella so illogical at times when it comes to Edward. I believe that comes from the fact that she's a human and he's a vampire. Any thoughts?
Well, of course that played some role, but it wasn't exactly significant. Fascination is what initially brought them together. Edward was intrigued by Bella's closed mind and the fact that she could so easily enter his world. Bella was fascinated by the otherworldly quality to Edward and how mysteriously he carried himself around her. If it wasn't for some measure of fascination, then their two worlds wouldn't have collided.

Of course, it's not easy to collect yourself around a vampire. After all, they are built to attract and then to kill. Eventually, I do believe that Bella was able to completely feel at ease around the Cullen family after all of their "adventures" together. This initial mysteriousness was replaced by something resembling a familial closeness between this human and a family of immortals. Bella was no longer something to attract. She was something to cherish.

Was Bella illogical, then? Perhaps. However, the fantastical circumstances in this story are unimaginable to us.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. Could a mod merge my two responses?
Well, now I'm going to double post in response to you, so I suppose we'll get in trouble together? 8-)

I see what you're saying, and you make a good point. I think that fascination continues a little bit too, which is why she's so self-conscious around Edward, why she's unable to really take him off the pedestal she has him on.
Well, since my response will now pertain to Bella, I think that it would be appropriate to submit here. (So many character discussions overlap on these threads, but I will take your advice on the other thread to heart!)

I don't think that Bella always had Edward on a pedestal. After all, she took control several times, particularly when Edward backed off after she wanted the entire Cullen family to vote on her mortality. Despite his best attempts to keep her away from his sworn enemies, Bella was also able to sneak around. Yes, she deeply cared for Edward, but her determination also applied to their conversations. Remember how wonderfully stubborn she was during the discussions that concerned when he would turn her into a member of the Cullen family?

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by Jazz Girl » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:45 pm

Bella did choose life, though. She chose the life she wanted with the man that she wanted, just as she always had. Her choice never waivered.
holdingoutforjacob wrote:So what if it's interference? I'm sorry, but honestly, so what? If I feel like my best friend, particularly one I'm in love with, is making a decision that permanent, that in my view is the worst thing they can possibly do, uninformed wild horses couldn't keep me from "interfering." In fact, to allow that friend to make that decision without at least making sure she understands what she's doing is, in my opinion, unacceptable.


But at what point then does it become an informed choice? Who is to say that? The person who doesn't want or agree with the friend's decision they have already made? That thinks that it's the worst decision they could make and sees a completely different option that they themselves want desperately? I can't honestly say that they would be the most objective. Bella has said over and over and over and over, even AFTER she realizes that she is in fact in love with Jake that she chooses LIFE with Edward. She never waivers. And, I suppose we will never agree on whether or not he does give up in interfering in her life. You say he does when he runs away. I say not until the moment he sees Renesmee. Regardless, Bella had the right to determine the course of her own life and have that determination respected, whether or not the course made everyone happy or not.

But, ultimately, the point comes back to the fact that Bella did choose, and chose repeatedly and her choice never changed. I find it completely insulting that you say that that choice, her obstinence in it, is the true demonstration of her being a teenager. Bella knew her heart and her mind and knew the life she wanted.

I suppose, as far as the fascination with Edward's being a vampire, I dont' see the distinction. When you find the person you love, your soul mate, there is always something about them that fascinates you, that you are infatuated with. I don't believe Bella ever really saw Edward as a vampire. She was aware of it, she understood the repercussions of it, how it limited them. It's one of the things I love most about the saga. You are reading this amazingly touching love story, watching these two wonderful characters navigate this rocky road towards happiness, tripping and falling along the way but always picking each other up. And, they, BAM, all of a sudden a reminder that they are doing this in a world of myths and legends. Above all else, Bella saw Edward as a man, the man that she loved.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:16 am

Jazz Girl, you're intelligent enough to realize that when people say Jacob wanted her to choose life, that meant an actual state of being. It's a nice point to make, but it doesn't change what's being said.

I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't think you should find that insulting. When I said that her stubbornness on becoming a vampire was a true example of her being a teenager I clearly stated in that same paragraph that it was her blind stubbornness, rather than it being what she wanted. I admire her determination to have the life she wants. I feel like you're trying to argue with me, and I don't appreciate it. I could be wrong, maybe you just didn't see the rest of what I wrote, making it clear that it was her single-mindedness that is acting her age.

Are you really going to argue that Bella was fully informed as to exactly how much she was giving up before she realized exactly how much she could have and how much she actually wanted it? Jacob knew she was in love with him, he knew she hadn't recognized it, and he knew it probably wouldn't be enough but was hoping against hope. More importantly, we, as readers, know that she was in love with him, know she hadn't realized it, and know she hadn't really truly considered what she was giving up.

Bella had the right to determine what she wanted and she did what she wanted. If there's one thing that's constant about this series, it's that Bella does and gets what she wants.

I wonder why you can so easily justify Edward's actions in the name of Bella's safety, and not Jacob's less restrictive actions in the name of Bella's life?

You and I both know that the choice wasn't about who she would spend life with for Jacob, it was above all that it remain HUMAN LIFE.

I fail to see how Jacob tried to get her to leave Edward or not choose to be a vampire in any way beyond the Ethics chapter in Eclipse.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:20 am

swedishskinjer wrote: Well, since my response will now pertain to Bella, I think that it would be appropriate to submit here. (So many character discussions overlap on these threads, but I will take your advice on the other thread to heart!)

I don't think that Bella always had Edward on a pedestal. After all, she took control several times, particularly when Edward backed off after she wanted the entire Cullen family to vote on her mortality. Despite his best attempts to keep her away from his sworn enemies, Bella was also able to sneak around. Yes, she deeply cared for Edward, but her determination also applied to their conversations. Remember how wonderfully stubborn she was during the discussions that concerned when he would turn her into a member of the Cullen family?
Glad I could help!

Hmm. Seems I have yet again failed to explain myself properly. You are absolutely right, and I love it when she takes control of her life the way she does in the moments you describe. I was mentally cheering! But she sees him as sooo much better than her in every possible way, that's what I mean by a pedestal. More beautiful, a superior being. That's why she can't accept presents from him, etc.

Hey there's a question. Do you think that now that she's a vampire, Edward's "equal" so to speak, she'll like getting presents from him, and the rest of the Cullens? After all, she didn't mind presents from her parents or Jacob, since she didn't see them as so much better than her.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #3

Post by swedishskinjer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:38 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
swedishskinjer wrote: Well, since my response will now pertain to Bella, I think that it would be appropriate to submit here. (So many character discussions overlap on these threads, but I will take your advice on the other thread to heart!)

I don't think that Bella always had Edward on a pedestal. After all, she took control several times, particularly when Edward backed off after she wanted the entire Cullen family to vote on her mortality. Despite his best attempts to keep her away from his sworn enemies, Bella was also able to sneak around. Yes, she deeply cared for Edward, but her determination also applied to their conversations. Remember how wonderfully stubborn she was during the discussions that concerned when he would turn her into a member of the Cullen family?
Glad I could help!

Hmm. Seems I have yet again failed to explain myself properly. You are absolutely right, and I love it when she takes control of her life the way she does in the moments you describe. I was mentally cheering! But she sees him as sooo much better than her in every possible way, that's what I mean by a pedestal. More beautiful, a superior being. That's why she can't accept presents from him, etc.

Hey there's a question. Do you think that now that she's a vampire, Edward's "equal" so to speak, she'll like getting presents from him, and the rest of the Cullens? After all, she didn't mind presents from her parents or Jacob, since she didn't see them as so much better than her.
Yes. I understand what you mean exactly.

It mainly has to do with the "attraction mechanism" that vampires possess. By nature, they are meant to lure prey with their impossible physical qualities. After this, the vampires are then supposed to *kill* the prey in order to sustain themselves. However, Bella is around Edward for extensive periods of time, so she's being subjected to an emotionally confusing luring mechanism that Edward can't do much to control. It's like Bella is being pulled forward into confusion by some unbelievable force.

She has never seen anything quite like the Cullens in her entire life. Imagine, then, mere human beings beholding a deity-like being whose physical beauty shines like a light. We would be humbled. We would be in awe. Consequently, our own weaknesses would be made more apparent after being in the presence of this deity for extended periods of time. Now imagine a deity who has beauty with an overwhelming purpose in their nature: to attract for killing. Bella has to continually look at Edward from the perspective of a weaker human who is being targeted by each and every immaculate detail on his body.

I think that Bella's fears of inadequacy have to do with this directly. Interestingly enough, her more heated debates against Edward aren't normally littered with awkwardness, which I believe was a deliberate attempt by Stephenie to slowly show the intellectual similarities between Bella and Edward. We are supposed to see a slow progression after this "luring mechanism" is dulled as she becomes more comfortable with her beloved's world.

As far as the presents are concerned...yes, absolutely! In Breaking Dawn, Bella was able to grudgingly accept a new vehicle from Edward, so I do believe that she was becoming more comfortable with the idea of doting. Again: progression.

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