Edward Cullen #6

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Asheleyo
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Asheleyo » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:52 pm

He had very purposefully left Carlisle's side, rebelled against the lifestyle Carlisle had introduced him to. But the emotional attachments had already been made, in my opinion. He had already embraced humanity enough to have it backlash when he did go out and hunt humans. I imagine it was much the same for him as it was for Jasper. Jasper could feel the fear and sadness of his prey before it died. Edward could not just feel that, but hear every implication of it in their heads. Even if they were murderers and rapists, they were still humans, and that's why he couldn't continue to do it. He felt more and more like a monster each time. Just because he wasn't living in human society at that time doesn't mean he hadn't embraced the ethics of that society.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:12 pm

I think you're right Asheleyo. I don't really have a big opinion either way. It doesn't feel like murder to me, Edward doesn't feel like a monster to me. So I'm just kind of playing it down the middle here, trying to figure it out! I like this kind of discussion/exploration!
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:48 pm

Asheleyo wrote:He had very purposefully left Carlisle's side, rebelled against the lifestyle Carlisle had introduced him to. But the emotional attachments had already been made, in my opinion. He had already embraced humanity enough to have it backlash when he did go out and hunt humans. I imagine it was much the same for him as it was for Jasper. Jasper could feel the fear and sadness of his prey before it died. Edward could not just feel that, but hear every implication of it in their heads. Even if they were murderers and rapists, they were still humans, and that's why he couldn't continue to do it. He felt more and more like a monster each time. Just because he wasn't living in human society at that time doesn't mean he hadn't embraced the ethics of that society.
Several good points. I didn't consider emotional attachment or what Edward would be hearing in his mind as the victim died.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:08 pm

Sigh . . . my post was deleted . . . three times. Remarkably frustrating . . . I can't even attempt to think about typing up my post again. So addressing Jazz Girl; for now I am going to copy and paste this quote:

"Thirsty vampires are in acute physical pain. It is comparable to the feel of a third degree burn inside your throat. It can make a vampire literally crazy for relief—beyond thought. If your hand was on fire and there was a bucket of ice water beside you, would you resist that relief?"

I hope that sheds light on the murder concept and the killing without cause or justification statement. :)
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:57 pm

Well, to play the devil's advocate here, I think we have to consider that that bucket of water represents the loss of a human life, and that there's another bucket that represents the loss of an animal life on the other side. If I had an alternative, I wouldn't go for the bucket that results in the loss of a human life.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:18 pm

amethyst wrote:Sigh . . . my post was deleted . . . three times. Remarkably frustrating . . . I can't even attempt to think about typing up my post again. So addressing Jazz Girl; for now I am going to copy and paste this quote:

"Thirsty vampires are in acute physical pain. It is comparable to the feel of a third degree burn inside your throat. It can make a vampire literally crazy for relief—beyond thought. If your hand was on fire and there was a bucket of ice water beside you, would you resist that relief?"

I hope that sheds light on the murder concept and the killing without cause or justification statement. :)
I don't see how this a justification for Edward killing humans. Edward knew better, Carlisle taught him from his very birth as a vampire that it was wrong. Edward knew it was wrong that's why he only went after the baddies.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:33 pm

See, holdingoutforjacob, what frustrates me even more about this discussion, is the superiority complex about human life and the agreed upon consensus that the most important detail about the killing of humans by a vampire is well the killing of a human. I am not a vegetarian and admittedly I have a streak of arrogance ;) . . . but not about this type of stuff. See, I don't see human life to be more precious than an animals life. I can't even attempt to think otherwise. To be honest, humans disgust me, to put it bluntly. It just really, really frustrates me that humans are deemed superior to everything else on this earth. Don't get me wrong, I am so compassionate to human suffering than I might seem right now. But I love fairness and loathe double standards. If we not forced to commit to vegetarian-ism and are not judged on that decision, then why should vampires (who are superior to us. Keep that in mind) be forced to apply lines that they can't cross when it is their "natural" food source. To say the least, I definitely agree with Aro.

Kachiti: Lets just say that I feel Edward was doing society a favor then. . . that said, I honestly do not feel there is anything wrong about the killing of a human if you're a vampire and are doing it solely for feeding. I think we should agree to disagree (damn, it's too early--I am loving this discussion) but I just can't agree with the "IT IS a human's life. He should've known better" statement. I really can't judge Edward or any other vampire or even attach words to their feeding because I've never experienced that kind of hunger and pain. It is beyond my comprehension.

p.s. I would like to see how you would react with your hand on a third degree burn with a bucket of ice water next you? Would you be strong and endure that pain at the expense of sparing a human life? I hope so. ;) (note: sarcasm)
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Jazz Girl » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:54 pm

amethyst wrote:Sigh . . . my post was deleted . . . three times. Remarkably frustrating . . . I can't even attempt to think about typing up my post again. So addressing Jazz Girl; for now I am going to copy and paste this quote:

"Thirsty vampires are in acute physical pain. It is comparable to the feel of a third degree burn inside your throat. It can make a vampire literally crazy for relief—beyond thought. If your hand was on fire and there was a bucket of ice water beside you, would you resist that relief?"

I hope that sheds light on the murder concept and the killing without cause or justification statement. :)
While it is true that vampires in the throws of thirst are in pain, I wonder if maybe watching Edward, the rest of the Cullens and even non-veggie vampires live every day exposed to that flame (to continue your analogy) and yet resist putting it out... desensitized me to it... I guess. My impression was that, yes, as a newborn, the thirst is all consuming. That is what they planned for with Bella. That is what every one of them said. It is what we see with Bri particularly in Eclipse. But, we also watch as everyday, the Cullens spend hour after hour, minute after minute, in very close proximity with humans and resist feeding. Edward spends his every waking moment (for the most part) almost deliberately burning himself in Bella's fire. And, yet, by the end of New Moon, burns happily because he knows it means Bella is alive. I guess, in my mind, while the pain of thirst is uncomfortable, particularly once they learned to manage it, it was something that could easily be dealt with. So, to me, I don't know that the 3rd degree burn analogy is completely applicable. Certainly, I'm not saying it isn't painful. But, I just don't take it that far.

I do agree with you, however, that humans are horribly arrogant when we look at the taking of a human life versus the taking of the life of a cow or a pig or a chicke or a fish or any of the other animals that we eat. And, maybe it is arrogance on my part that I just can't bring myself to place the same value on a cow's life as I do a human's.

But, I definitely think that is where my view of Edward's actions come from. The combination of the fact that that there is a difference in my mind between eating a chicken and eating a human when you know you could live off of either, and the fact that, while the thirst in general is uncomfortable, it is not fatal AND you are not only aware that there is an alternative, but have practiced that alternative for a decade or so.
Last edited by Jazz Girl on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Again, amethyst, in your sarcastic note to Kachiti, you're ignoring that second bucket of water to your other side, one that is considerably less troublesome to get, and while it would not be quite as satisfying, would still numb the pain. It's like putting anti-itch cream on a bug bite, it stops the itch, or the pain, but the bug bite is still there.

Well, then I guess we disagree that vampires are so superior to humans. I don't think they are. I think that they are, essentially, still humans, and should still be applied to the same moral and ethical laws we impose upon ourselves. Humans and vampires are the same species.

Also, consider about the "human superiority complex" that humans prey on animals that are pretty far removed from the intelligence of humans. We prey on things considerably low on the food chain, such as deer, cows, fish, and birds. Not the next link down.

Also, as Kachiti and Jazz Girl stated, Edward knew about the alternative and clearly knew it was wrong to do what he was doing, which is why he selected people that had already wasted their lives doing bad things.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:45 pm

amethyst wrote:See, holdingoutforjacob, what frustrates me even more about this discussion, is the superiority complex about human life and the agreed upon consensus that the most important detail about the killing of humans by a vampire is well the killing of a human. I am not a vegetarian and admittedly I have a streak of arrogance ;) . . . but not about this type of stuff. See, I don't see human life to be more precious than an animals life. I can't even attempt to think otherwise. To be honest, humans disgust me, to put it bluntly. It just really, really frustrates me that humans are deemed superior to everything else on this earth. Don't get me wrong, I am so compassionate to human suffering than I might seem right now. But I love fairness and loathe double standards. If we not forced to commit to vegetarian-ism and are not judged on that decision, then why should vampires (who are superior to us. Keep that in mind) be forced to apply lines that they can't cross when it is their "natural" food source. To say the least, I definitely agree with Aro.

Kachiti: Lets just say that I feel Edward was doing society a favor then. . . that said, I honestly do not feel there is anything wrong about the killing of a human if you're a vampire and are doing it solely for feeding. I think we should agree to disagree (damn, it's too early--I am loving this discussion) but I just can't agree with the "IT IS a human's life. He should've known better" statement. I really can't judge Edward or any other vampire or even attach words to their feeding because I've never experienced that kind of hunger and pain. It is beyond my comprehension.

p.s. I would like to see how you would react with your hand on a third degree burn with a bucket of ice water next you? Would you be strong and endure that pain at the expense of sparing a human life? I hope so. ;) (note: sarcasm)
As a scientist and a lover of nature. I believe in preserving all life from human to earthworm. That being said there is a natural balance to life and with humans at the top of that chain. While we (according to what you believe) were created last, we are suppose to be the caretakers of nature. Of which we have not done such a great job. I have a healthy respect for the undead. Vampires are superior in many ways but to a human, I can't say. The anatomy stays the same and we both require blood for life. So the jury is still out on that.

While I can not judge a human or vampire for what they don't know. Edward KNEW right from wrong. Carlisle was there to teach him every step of the way. But your analogy comparing vampire's burning thirst to a third degree burn does not work. For one if you have a third degree burn, water will only make it worse not better, ice is much better in that case. There is also major tissue damage but I degress. In Edward's case he went for the humans that we in society would consider to be low lives. He heard what they were thinking as he took each life and felt what it was doing to him. There is big difference in knowing its wrong but doing it anyway and not knowing. Bri as Jazz Girl stated is a prime example of that.
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